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Post by MCDemuth on Apr 24, 2017 19:14:56 GMT
TheGoodMan19 & koskiewicz : 1.) Even if LHO was innocent of shooting JFK... I'm certain he knew there was a rifle or spent shells at the Texas School Book Depository, JFK was assassinated by someone nearby, and the police considered him a suspect and were looking for him... He could very easily have shot Officer JD Tippit, because he was afraid to be convicted of assassinating JFK. I am not saying that this indeed is what happened, but it wouldn't be the first time an innocent person ran, because evidence suggested that they were guilty, and they were afraid of being framed... And being framed of killing the president, is probably the worst thing that could happen to you.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Apr 24, 2017 19:27:16 GMT
TheGoodMan19 & koskiewicz : 1.) Even if LHO was innocent of shooting JFK... I'm certain he knew there was a rifle or spent shells at the Texas School Book Depository, JFK was assassinated by someone nearby, and the police considered him a suspect and were looking for him... He could very easily have shot Officer JD Tippit, because he was afraid to be convicted of assassinating JFK. I am not saying that this indeed is what happened, but it wouldn't be the first time an innocent person ran, because evidence suggested that they were guilty, and they were afraid of being framed... And being framed of killing the president, is probably the worst thing that could happen to you. The ballistics of the pistol in Oswald's possession matched the one that shot Tippit. And Oswald would have fried for killing a Dallas PD officer just as easily as killing a president on the USA. If you buy the "Oswald's rifle was planted" theory, you have to believe that Oswald was indeed bringing curtain rods to work that day. People who aren't lone gunman theorists always say they don't believe in coincidences. Its a hell of a coincidence that LHO brings a package wrapped in paper that could pass for a rifle or curtain rods on that very day.
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Post by MCDemuth on Apr 24, 2017 19:54:44 GMT
One could also argue, that it was quite a coincidence...
That Oswald happened to be working, that same day he was to kill JFK... and... that he just happened to work in a building, that just happened to be along the very route that JFK's motorcade travelled.
It makes him sound like a Fortune Teller or a Time Traveller... "I want to kill JFK, so I will go back in time, and get a job at the Book Depository, and I'll make sure I am working that day, so that will all make me look innocent."
It is almost as if, the motorcade route, was intentionally planned out to go by Book Depository...
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Post by bicks on Apr 25, 2017 3:15:56 GMT
I have too, and have read numerous books on the subject, plus the movies made. I do think Oswald was involved in the situation, but not in the killing. He was a patsy set up to take the fall. But he also knew or had figured out too much and had to be silenced hence his killing by Jack Ruby, a lesser member of the mob. Oswald was guilty of nothing more than being (a boon for the conspirators) in the right place at the right time. I doubt that Oswald even knew about the planting of the rifle or that he was being set up...until it was too late. It's been established that he removed his rifle from his garage the day before the shooting and told a friend/co-worker who'd given him a lift to Oswald's house that it was curtain rods when asked what was in the bag. He apparently only stayed at his house on the weekends as he was living closer to work on weekdays but he urgently wanted the "curtain rods" mid week. His landlady said his room already had curtain rods. He denied carrying the long paper bag into work, yet his fingerprints were on it but no curtain rods were found at the depository but a rifle matching Oswald's was found. All co-workers were accounted for but Oswald was missing. I also remember reading that a witness stated he saw a figure holding a rifle at the depository window and commented to a friend that the CIA are really organised (to protect the President) or words to that effect. When police approached him at the movie theatre Oswald tried to shoot an officer, hardly the work of an innocent man. I believe he was one of the shooters and I think it was all Cuba related, but that's another topic.
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Post by tarathian123 on Apr 25, 2017 5:58:48 GMT
No self-respecting assassin would use a mail-order rifle (especially a rifle with a poor record of accuracy) which could be so easily traced back to the buyer, and then leave it at the supposed scene of the crime.
Oswald certainly was accounted for. He was encountered by an armed Dallas policeman, Marrion Baker, in the Texas Schoolbook Depository Building's second floor lunchroom 74 to 90 seconds (according to a Warren Commission time recreation) after the last shot. According to Baker, Oswald did not appear to be nervous or out of breath (which had he been the assassin he should have been). According to the Warren Commission, Oswald was next seen by a Depository secretary as he crossed through the second floor business office carrying a soda bottle. He left the Texas School Book Depository at an estimated 12:33 p.m. through its front door.
The shooting was according to the police. I recall reading other sources saying that he simply resisted arrest. An innocent man seeing about two dozen screaming policeman coming at him could easily panic and resist arrest.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2017 13:21:48 GMT
I've watched every program about the assassination available and have come to the conclusion that JFK was shot twice, once in the throat by Oswald and once in the head by a Secret Service agent. The Secret Service agent shot him accidentally as he wielded a rifle while riding in the limo behind JFK's. The reasons I believe this is because the caliber of the bullet which struck JFK's head was different from the one which went through his throat and ended up hitting Gov. Connally, witnesses and photos show the Secret Service agent with the rifle, and witnesses reported noticing an odor of gunsmoke on the street which would've been impossible for them to notice from the book depository.
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Post by koskiewicz on Apr 25, 2017 16:20:01 GMT
Gaeton Fonzi put forth the theory (The Last Investigation) that the secret service agent in the following car shot Kennedy, Indeed, the agent was holding an AR15 rifle in that vehicle. I corresponded with Harold Weisberg on this and his conclusion was that this did NOT happen. The back of Kennedy's head was blown away which is consistent with a shot coming from the front. i.e., entrance wound small, exit would large. This was Weisberg's explanation. Since I am former US military, I am inclined to agree with him.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2017 16:58:01 GMT
Gaeton Fonzi put forth the theory (The Last Investigation) that the secret service agent in the following car shot Kennedy, Indeed, the agent was holding an AR15 rifle in that vehicle. I corresponded with Harold Weisberg on this and his conclusion was that this did NOT happen. The back of Kennedy's head was blown away which is consistent with a shot coming from the front. i.e., entrance wound small, exit would large. This was Weisberg's explanation. Since I am former US military, I am inclined to agree with him. I appreciate your response to my post. I looked up the JFK autopsy at Wikipedia which says... The gunshot wound to the head1. The wound to the back of the head is described by the Bethesda autopsy as being a laceration measuring 15 by 6 millimetres (0.59 in × 0.24 in), situated to the right and slightly above the external occipital protuberance. In the underlying bone is a corresponding wound through the skull showing beveling (a cone-shaped widening) of the margins of the bone when viewed from the interior of the skull. 2. The large, irregularly shaped defect in the right side of the head (chiefly to the parietal bone, but also involving the temporal and occipital bone) is described as being about 13 centimetres (5.1 in) wide at the largest diameter. 3. Three fragments of skull bone were received as separate specimens, roughly corresponding to the dimensions of the large defect. In the largest of the fragments is a portion of the perimeter of a roughly circular wound presumably of exit, exhibiting beveling of the exterior of the bone, and measuring about 2.5 to 3.0 centimetres (0.98 to 1.18 in). X-rays revealed minute particles of metal in the bone at this margin. 4. Minute fragments of the projectile were found by X-ray along a path from the rear wound to the parietal area defect.[9] Diagram made for the House Committee showing the trajectory of the bullet through President Kennedy's skull. The rear wound corresponds with the small entry wound above. The skull fragments are shown exploded for illustrative purposes; most stayed attached to the skull by skin flaps, which are being pulled forward by the gloved hand in the drawing made from an autopsy photo. Drawing depicting the posterior head wound of President Kennedy, made from an autopsy photograph. The small nearly circular posterior scalp wound is at the end of the hair part, near the end of the ruler, and immediately to the right of it.
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Post by mecano04 on Apr 25, 2017 18:20:16 GMT
Gaeton Fonzi put forth the theory (The Last Investigation) that the secret service agent in the following car shot Kennedy, Indeed, the agent was holding an AR15 rifle in that vehicle. I corresponded with Harold Weisberg on this and his conclusion was that this did NOT happen. The back of Kennedy's head was blown away which is consistent with a shot coming from the front. i.e., entrance wound small, exit would large. This was Weisberg's explanation. Since I am former US military, I am inclined to agree with him. I appreciate your response to my post. I looked up the JFK autopsy at Wikipedia which says... The gunshot wound to the head1. The wound to the back of the head is described by the Bethesda autopsy as being a laceration measuring 15 by 6 millimetres (0.59 in × 0.24 in), situated to the right and slightly above the external occipital protuberance. In the underlying bone is a corresponding wound through the skull showing beveling (a cone-shaped widening) of the margins of the bone when viewed from the interior of the skull. 2. The large, irregularly shaped defect in the right side of the head (chiefly to the parietal bone, but also involving the temporal and occipital bone) is described as being about 13 centimetres (5.1 in) wide at the largest diameter. 3. Three fragments of skull bone were received as separate specimens, roughly corresponding to the dimensions of the large defect. In the largest of the fragments is a portion of the perimeter of a roughly circular wound presumably of exit, exhibiting beveling of the exterior of the bone, and measuring about 2.5 to 3.0 centimetres (0.98 to 1.18 in). X-rays revealed minute particles of metal in the bone at this margin. 4. Minute fragments of the projectile were found by X-ray along a path from the rear wound to the parietal area defect.[9] Diagram made for the House Committee showing the trajectory of the bullet through President Kennedy's skull. The rear wound corresponds with the small entry wound above. The skull fragments are shown exploded for illustrative purposes; most stayed attached to the skull by skin flaps, which are being pulled forward by the gloved hand in the drawing made from an autopsy photo. Drawing depicting the posterior head wound of President Kennedy, made from an autopsy photograph. The small nearly circular posterior scalp wound is at the end of the hair part, near the end of the ruler, and immediately to the right of it. The pictures contradict the version of the doctors, since they place the wound more at the back and lower, closer to where the hole is in the drawing:
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Post by novastar6 on Apr 26, 2017 12:52:43 GMT
Yes. Oswald shot Kennedy, all by his lonesome. No huge conspiracy, just a lone nut. If that's true, how was a mere strip club owner able to just waltz into the police station and blow away the most wanted man in America? Why didn't anybody stop him since he wasn't authorized to be there and in fact nobody reacted until after Oswald was shot? It would imply that they knew he was coming to kill Oswald and that they wanted it on live TV for everybody to see. How could they know that if there was no conspiracy?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2017 12:57:28 GMT
Yes. Oswald shot Kennedy, all by his lonesome. No huge conspiracy, just a lone nut. If that's true, how was a mere strip club owner able to just waltz into the police station and blow away the most wanted man in America? Why didn't anybody stop him since he wasn't authorized to be there and in fact nobody reacted until after Oswald was shot?[/quote] Because the cops screwed up. That's what happens in the real world - people screw up and make mistakes. There was a crowd of reporters in the basement - the cops weren't trying to keep the place clear of people or anything, so it's not like he was able to penetrate massive security. He just walked in there with the other civilians. It doesn't imply that at all to me. To me that seems like a massive and completely unsupported leap.
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Post by MCDemuth on Apr 26, 2017 14:57:13 GMT
If that's true, how was a mere strip club owner able to just waltz into the police station and blow away the most wanted man in America? Why didn't anybody stop him since he wasn't authorized to be there and in fact nobody reacted until after Oswald was shot? Because the cops screwed up. That's what happens in the real world - people screw up and make mistakes. There was a crowd of reporters in the basement - the cops weren't trying to keep the place clear of people or anything, so it's not like he was able to penetrate massive security. He just walked in there with the other civilians. It would imply that they knew he was coming to kill Oswald and that they wanted it on live TV for everybody to see. How could they know that if there was no conspiracy? It doesn't imply that at all to me. To me that seems like a massive and completely unsupported leap. Although I don't think LHO was the only shooter... I have heard that Ruby knew people at the police station, and that they "let" him in... or at least... because they knew him, they didn't consider him a threat and allowed him to stay. Interestingly though, I have also heard that Ruby had two prior chances to get close enough to LHO, to possibly shoot him, and didn't. What this means is uncertain. Maybe "close enough", just means in the same building, but didn't actually see him... But if he could have shot him earlier, why didn't he? Why wait for an uncertain & unknown better opportunity? While it is possible that Ruby was a "hitman"... I do find it difficult to believe that Ruby shot LHO for any reasons other than personal ones.
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Post by novastar6 on Apr 26, 2017 16:02:09 GMT
Because the cops screwed up. That's what happens in the real world - people screw up and make mistakes. There was a crowd of reporters in the basement - the cops weren't trying to keep the place clear of people or anything, so it's not like he was able to penetrate massive security. He just walked in there with the other civilians. It doesn't imply that at all to me. To me that seems like a massive and completely unsupported leap. Although I don't think LHO was the only shooter... I have heard that Ruby knew people at the police station, and that they "let" him in... or at least... because they knew him, they didn't consider him a threat and allowed him to stay. Interestingly though, I have also heard that Ruby had two prior chances to get close enough to LHO, to possibly shoot him, and didn't. What this means is uncertain. Maybe "close enough", just means in the same building, but didn't actually see him... But if he could have shot him earlier, why didn't he? Why wait for an uncertain & unknown better opportunity? While it is possible that Ruby was a "hitman"... I do find it difficult to believe that Ruby shot LHO for any reasons other than personal ones. In Richard Belzer's book Hit List, he mentions another JFK witness who said that Ruby 'blew it' by not shooting Oswald the day of the assassination, so he had to scramble to correct it and that's why he did it at the police station. Very odd what happened to Ruby though, has a relatively clean bill of health the whole time he's in prison, then as soon as he's told he'll be moved to Washington D.C. to testify before the Congress, he's screaming he's been injected with cancer cells, and he's dead in 3 weeks from aggravated lung cancer. Supposedly he didn't smoke, so the only other 'logical' way that could happen would be Radon poisoning, but I know from personal experience cancer from Radon takes a lot longer than 3 weeks to kill somebody, and he would've been sick a lot longer and it wouldn't have just been written off as a stomach flu by the prison doctor.
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Post by koskiewicz on Apr 26, 2017 18:25:40 GMT
...and there is the mystery of Dorothy Kilgallen...there is no logical explanation for her untimely death immediately following her announcement that she would blow the lid off of the assassination.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Apr 26, 2017 19:47:30 GMT
Yes. Oswald shot Kennedy, all by his lonesome. No huge conspiracy, just a lone nut. If that's true, how was a mere strip club owner able to just waltz into the police station and blow away the most wanted man in America? Why didn't anybody stop him since he wasn't authorized to be there and in fact nobody reacted until after Oswald was shot? It would imply that they knew he was coming to kill Oswald and that they wanted it on live TV for everybody to see. How could they know that if there was no conspiracy? Ruby was well know at Dallas PD HQ. Dallas police frequented his strip clubs and most drank for free. I also think that Jack Ruby being a "cleaner" for assassins is silly. The man owned some Titty Bars. He knew people on both sides of the law. But to blieve he was a real life Winston Wolf is a stretch.
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Post by MCDemuth on Apr 26, 2017 20:06:52 GMT
As I sad in an earlier post, I just don't understand LHO's decision to start shooting, when he did... I took a screen capture from a documentary, which shows a view of the area, and then added some reference lines: 1.) Did LHO start shooting when the car was coming straight at him? NO!2.) Did LHO start shooting when the car was directly below him, and he could have easily shot JFK from above and hit him directly in the head with his FIRST shot? NO!Why not? Wouldn't a sniper prefer a shot that would be so close? 3.) Take a good look at where that car is... Why does LHO wait until JFK's car is halfway down this last street and moving away from him and out of the area? If he misses, JFK's car quickly speeds up and is gone and that is it... Also, wasn't there a tree blocking his view, before he could start shooting too? Again, Why wait and select this area that has an obstructed view? So, if LHO was the only shooter... He just happens to wait, AND wait, to start his attack in the most wide open place in the area... which also happens to be the one place, where it is easiest to have multiple shooters target JFK?... That quite a coincidence!
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Post by novastar6 on Apr 26, 2017 20:10:07 GMT
If that's true, how was a mere strip club owner able to just waltz into the police station and blow away the most wanted man in America? Why didn't anybody stop him since he wasn't authorized to be there and in fact nobody reacted until after Oswald was shot? It would imply that they knew he was coming to kill Oswald and that they wanted it on live TV for everybody to see. How could they know that if there was no conspiracy? Ruby was well know at Dallas PD HQ. Dallas police frequented his strip clubs and most drank for free. I also think that Jack Ruby being a "cleaner" for assassins is silly. The man owned some Titty Bars. He knew people on both sides of the law. But to blieve he was a real life Winston Wolf is a stretch. So's the idea that the cops just agree to let him blow away the guy who just assassinated the president for 'personal reasons'.
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Post by mecano04 on Apr 26, 2017 21:50:41 GMT
As I sad in an earlier post, I just don't understand LHO's decision to start shooting, when he did... I took a screen capture from a documentary, which shows a view of the area, and then added some reference lines: 1.) Did LHO start shooting when the car was coming straight at him? NO!2.) Did LHO start shooting when the car was directly below him, and he could have easily shot JFK from above and hit him directly in the head with his FIRST shot? NO!Why not? Wouldn't a sniper prefer a shot that would be so close? 3.) Take a good look at where that car is... Why does LHO wait until JFK's car is halfway down this last street and moving away from him and out of the area? If he misses, JFK's car quickly speeds up and is gone and that is it... Also, wasn't there a tree blocking his view, before he could start shooting too? Again, Why wait and select this area that has an obstructed view? So, if LHO was the only shooter... He just happens to wait, AND wait, to start his attack in the most wide open place in the area... which also happens to be the one place, where it is easiest to have multiple shooters target JFK?... That quite a coincidence! Indeed, there might have been branches in the way depending on his actual view angle: www.google.ca/maps/@32.7791598,-96.8086124,3a,75y,26.15h,90.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skhnX8CmDAHhyD7Ep0ORxHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 If you look around you'll see the depository
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 2:31:19 GMT
Truly there is an endless amount of info to dig through on the Internet- pro/con. I think the case revolves around these 4 questions. Question 1. What was Oswald's personal motives? Question 2. Did Oswald work for the CIA or not? Question 3. Jack Ruby, Sleazy bar owner/mob-ties, not Catholic is a most unlikely Patriot? Question 4. The Shots fired should be the most unquestionable aspect of the case from a mathematical perspective but are constantly disputable? How can this be even possible? The Department of Defense admitted to a "routine" destruction in 1971 of an Army Intelligence file on Oswald. Crypto secret clearance is mentioned in the Warren Commission documents, in its actual Warren Commission volumes. I found that out after having looked into it. You can find them. Crypto secret clearance is a very specialized high security clearance that very, very few people would obtain in any capacity, and it is interesting to note that at this time while Oswald was in the Marine Corps he was receiving "Communist literature," so you have a pro-Communist, Marxist having crypto secret clearance. Three years before the Kennedy assassination, Lee Harvey Oswald was being investigated by the CIA's Special Investigations Group (SIG), a branch of the agency's Counter-Intelligence (CI) division, headed by James Angleton between 1954 and 1974. This was confirmed in the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) questioning of Ann Egerter, a member of Angleton's staff who opened the CIA file on Lee Harvey Oswald (a "201 file" in US intel lingo) in December of 1960. The kicker is that the CI/SIG division is only tasked with investigating current CIA agents who are potential security risks. Egerter said her office was known within the CIA as "the office that spied on spies." She further elaborated on SIG as the entity that undertook "investigations of agency employees where there was an indication of espionage." In 1963, William Walter was a clerk in the FBI's New Orleans office. He told the HSCA that Lee Oswald indeed had "an informant's status with our office." Orest Pena, another FBI informant, said he saw Oswald with FBI agent Warren deBrueys on 'numerous occasions,' even stating that deBrueys physically threatened him about not revealing what he saw before Pena appeared before the Warren Commission. Oswald's friend Adrian Alba, who managed a New Orleans garage that held FBI and Secret Service cars, recalled watching Oswald approach an FBI car outside the garage and receive a white envelope that was handed to him through a cracked window before concealing it under his shirt. Alba later said Oswald "met the car again a couple of days later and talked briefly with the driver," whom Alba knew as an "FBI agent visiting New Orleans from Washington." readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/20557-16-mind-blowing-facts-about-who-really-killed-jfkThe Warren Commission shows that Ruth Paine called the Texas School Book Depository on October 14, 1963 about possible job openings for Lee Oswald, after a neighbor suggested the idea. Oswald was interviewed for a part-time job there on the 15th, and started work on the 16th, where he would be paid $208.82 a month. However, the commission also reveals that Paine lied under oath about being contacted by the Texas Employment Commission on October 15th about a far more lucrative full-time job for Oswald at Trans-Texas Airways as a cargo handler, where he would be paid $310 a month. In just a few exchanges with Warren Commission lawyer Albert Jenner, Paine went from denying any knowledge of the job offer, to vaguely remembering it, to hearing about the job from Lee Oswald himself. House Select Committee on Assassinations undertook a similar investigation of Ruby and said that he "had a significant number of associations and direct and indirect contacts with underworld figures" and "the Dallas criminal element" but that he was not a "member" of organized crime.[69] Ruby was known to have been acquainted with both the police and the Mafia. The HSCA said that Ruby had known Chicago mobster Sam Giancana (1908-1975) and Joseph Campisi (1918-1990) since 1947, and had been seen with them on many occasions.[70][71] After an investigation of Joe Campisi. From the time of Oswald's arrest to his own assassination at the hands of Jack Ruby, no formal transcript or record was kept of statements made by the alleged killer. It was said that no tape recordings were made of Oswald's remarks, and many notes taken of his statements were destroyed. Has Lee Harvey Oswald been Quietly Added To CIA Memorial Wall?
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Post by twothousandonemark on May 27, 2017 3:45:05 GMT
I think he shot JFK alone, but a political machine set him up.
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