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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2017 18:33:58 GMT
Nalkarj and tarathian123I'm rather clueless now. Imo, there are only two possible combinations: 9-2-2 or 6-6-1 Indeed, the sentence *My oldest son likes hotdogs or has blue eyes.* and that fact that he has 3 sons and no daughter, makes 6-6-1 impossible. According to brimfim 9-2-2 is not the correct answer. I can't think of any other solution.
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Post by brimfin on May 6, 2017 18:38:37 GMT
brimfin Nicely worked out, but because his name doesn't fit the initials of the months how does "He’s the only one not part of it" fit in? Are to we assume he's the murderer because of that. Very flimsy. A good lawyer would make mincemeat of it. Well, it's like the "dying clue" often used in Ellery Queen (at least on the TV show). His clue now points the police to who he claims did it. Now that they know who "he" is, they can focus on him instead of the other remaining survivors and find evidence to prove he did it.
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Post by brimfin on May 6, 2017 18:45:33 GMT
Nalkarj and tarathian123 I'm rather clueless now. Imo, there are only two possible combinations: 9-2-2 or 6-6-1 Indeed, the sentence *My oldest son likes hotdogs or has blue eyes.* and that fact that he has 3 sons and no daughter, makes 6-6-1 impossible. According to brimfim 9-2-2 is not the correct answer. I can't think of any other solution. Actually, you're not clueless at all. You just solved it as well. I didn't say 9-2-2 wasn't correct. When I said you need another combination, I was referring to salzmank, who said he couldn't find any other combination than 9-2-2. I thought tarathian123 might possibly have thought the same thing, since he only mentioned the one combination as well. The logic you used above is just what I was looking for. When salzman figures it out or gives up, I'll give you all the new wrinkle.
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Post by tarathian123 on May 6, 2017 18:46:33 GMT
Oh well. I've never watched or read EQ.
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Post by tarathian123 on May 6, 2017 18:50:40 GMT
OK. Try this one guys and gals!
There are 5 houses in 5 different colours. In each house lives a person of a different nationality. The 5 owners drink a certain type of beverage, smoke a certain brand of cigar, and keep a certain pet. Using the clues below can you determine which house owner keeps the fish?
The Brit lives in a red house. The Swede keeps dogs as pets. The Dane drinks tea. The green house is on the immediate left of the white house. The green house owner drinks coffee. The person who smokes Pall Mall rears birds. The owner of the yellow house smokes Dunhill. The man living in the house right in the middle drinks milk. The Norwegian lives in the first house. The man who smokes Blend lives next door to the one who keeps cats. The man who keeps horses lives next door to the man who smokes Dunhill. The owner who smokes Blue Master drinks chocolate. The German smokes Prince. The Norwegian lives next to the blue house. The man who smokes Blend has a neighbour who drinks water.
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Post by Nalkarj on May 6, 2017 18:54:05 GMT
brimfin, I'm with @volver and tarathian123 that, unless we're counting minutes at birth (what I presumed), the only answer can be 9+2+2 (what Tarathian presumed). Oh, Volver got it right! But then what about the piece when you said ?
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Post by Nalkarj on May 6, 2017 18:59:30 GMT
brimfin Nicely worked out, but because his name doesn't fit the initials of the months how does "He’s the only one not part of it" fit in? Are to we assume he's the murderer because of that. Very flimsy. A good lawyer would make mincemeat of it. Well, it's like the "dying clue" often used in Ellery Queen (at least on the TV show). His clue now points the police to who he claims did it. Now that they know who "he" is, they can focus on him instead of the other remaining survivors and find evidence to prove he did it. Yup, that's it. A good lawyer would indeed make mincemeat of it, tarathian123 , but what Brimfin said about the police now focusing on Quincy is also true. (Remember that we're not asking for evidence, merely for who--based on the tale's logic--is the murderer.) The point is that Johnson--a writer, remember?--found a pattern in twelve of the names: each matches one month of the year. His dying clue was indeed that one of the thirteen--Quincy--did not fit this twelve-fold pattern. Yes, it's a very Queenian technique--Ellery Queen's focus on wordplay and riddles appeals to me.
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Post by Nalkarj on May 6, 2017 19:01:05 GMT
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Post by tarathian123 on May 6, 2017 19:08:41 GMT
Can't figure how missed it. I recently saw a riddle of a dying man who wrote 7 B 9 10 11 on the wall to name his attacker. B was a mistake by the man and should have been 8. Same idea. Initials of the month, JASON.
What I couldn't figure out was why didn't he just write Jason?
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Post by Nalkarj on May 6, 2017 19:39:54 GMT
It's an old question, why the dying message would occur. Indeed, it's one of the great problems of the detective story: why would anyone go to these lengths at all? Why would a murderer kill his victim in a locked room rather than simply bop him over the head in an alley outside? The simplest answer may simply be because it would be damned dull to read about that. You either accept the preconditions of a genre, or you don't. Suffice it to say that dying clues have occurred in real life and been absolutely incomprehensible. In Ellery Queen's (Barnaby Ross's) The Tragedy of X, Drury Lane devotes a whole monologue to the question of why someone would tell a message before dying, rather than the murderer's name (if he knows it). The human mind, especially before death, goes to some strange thoughts and conceptions. As for my story, however, there's a very good reason why Johnson wouldn't say the murderer's name. He was working on the puzzle before death, and he's going in and out on consciousness, as Sgt. Mack tells us. He's not exactly reasoning in that moment, but his mind is going to what he was doing when the murder occurred. I don't think that's all that implausible. If you are dying, you don't know what you will be able to say, but you want to get out some sign, some clue. By drawing attention to the pattern, he can be sure that someone will find the murderer who does not fit that pattern. P.S. One can similarly find fault with any riddle. Why would Joel not just say his children's ages? That's highly implausible and makes him seem like a jerk. But you have to accept preconditions. "Willing suspension of disbelief," you know?
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Post by tarathian123 on May 6, 2017 19:47:33 GMT
Apologies. Thought I had, then went elsewhere. Better cover yours up too Yes I do realise that riddles are not real life, but logic employed to solve illogic problems. Anyone interested in my fish problem? If not I'll delete it. Pity to do so. It was allegedly written by Albert Einstein.
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Post by Nalkarj on May 6, 2017 20:02:07 GMT
I'll take a look, I'll take a look! Just responding to a PM about Joel and Phil from Brimfin!
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Post by tarathian123 on May 6, 2017 20:11:47 GMT
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Post by Nalkarj on May 6, 2017 20:15:16 GMT
Apologies. Thought I had, then went elsewhere. Better cover yours up too Yes I do realise that riddles are not real life, but logic employed to solve illogic problems. Anyone interested in my fish problem? If not I'll delete it. Pity to do so. It was allegedly written by Albert Einstein. Now, this will probably show me to be a fool for all time, but here goes nothing! How can one possibly determine who has the fish if we don't know what the animals (except the dogs and cats) are? Therefore, I'm tempted to say it's the Swede, because of Swedish fish. EDIT: If, on the other hand, Einstein did indeed develop this puzzle, my joke cannot be the true solution, as Swedish fish were developed in the late '50s, and he only lived to '55. EDIT AGAIN: I read it once more, and, yes, I am a fool; horses and birds are also in the puzzle. With that said, there's no stipulation that one of them does own the fish, is there?
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Post by tarathian123 on May 6, 2017 20:32:10 GMT
Nalkarj Fish problem: Do fish have nationalities? It says "The 5 owners drink a certain type of beverage, smoke a certain brand of cigar, and keep a certain pet". It follows that if you determine the types of pets from other houses, then the fish must be the unnamed pet, but which one owns it?
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Post by Nalkarj on May 6, 2017 20:44:20 GMT
OK, we got our posts mixed up again. Well... The preconditions only state that each homeowner owns a certain pet, not that one of those pets is a fish. (The question asks, "Who owns the fish?" but the answer could be "Bob" or "no one.") While this lack of a definitive statement on the matter would not be a problem with most things, this sort of thing can easily be confused for a riddle--it's similar to a riddle I've heard before--in which the point is that no one owns the fish, and you're supposed to overthink it with mathematical analysis ( not my strong point, at all!). I've now looked the puzzle--but not the answer--up online and seen (1) that it does indeed call for detailed logical analysis (something I really cannot do--I don't have a mathematical mind) and (2) that others have criticized it for not having this prerequisite. I feel a bit like Chesterton's sailor now.
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Post by tarathian123 on May 6, 2017 20:51:38 GMT
Nalkarj - Fish problem As far as I can see it's not mathematical at all. Just a matter of logical analysis and organisation. The pet belongs to the house. No personal owner. If calling it a fish annoys you, try newt, monkey, or anything different from the others. Secretaries have to deal with this kind of logic every day and think nothing of it. Go on...give it a go!
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Post by Nalkarj on May 6, 2017 21:08:07 GMT
Nalkarj - Fish problem As far as I can see it's not mathematical at all. Just a matter of logical analysis and organisation. The pet belongs to the house. No personal owner. If calling it a fish annoys you, try newt, monkey, or anything different from the others. Secretaries have to deal with this kind of logic every day and think nothing of it. Go on...give it a go! Well, it's what they call mathematical reasoning, rather than pure mathematics, and there's a reason--well, in fact, there are many, but anyway--that I'm not a secretary! It's not that calling it a fish "annoys" me, merely that the fact that a fish is never mentioned in the... Let me put it a different way. Let's forget about the fish, as you say. At the risk of seeming mathematical myself, I'll express it with Animal X. We are told that five animals belong to five houses, right? But we are never told that one of the five houses owns Animal X. The first time that Animal X is mentioned is in the question, "Who owns Animal X?" The answer can be anything. We have to make an assumption, unwarranted by the text, that one of the owners of the five houses is indeed the owner of Animal X. As one source puts it: While, in most cases, that assumption would not be all that illogical, it's something to watch out for with riddles and puzzles. Preconceptions and assumptions trip us up.
I'm only going on about this--mea culpa--because I thought it was a riddle, where there's some trick to it, rather than an exercise in pure deductive logic. While I can do this type of thing on a small scale (e.g., your murder puzzle), I tend not to be able to do it on a large scale. Or, at least, so my math teachers used to tell me.
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Post by tarathian123 on May 6, 2017 21:21:48 GMT
Salzmank - Fish problem I think you're getting steamed up about nothing. It's actually nothing more than quite an easy organisational exercise, but no one is forcing you to do it. I've changed the wording on the puzzle to "which house owner keeps the fish?" I'll keep it up for others. And now I'm calling it a night. I'm for bed. Thanks all for the company!! Great fun!
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2017 21:36:27 GMT
tarathian123fish problem The German, who owns the green house, drinks coffee, smokes Prince....owns the fish.
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