PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 23, 2017 21:59:06 GMT
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Post by Terrapin Station on Apr 28, 2017 12:17:53 GMT
Re "true captain", I can just imagine Plato being born in 1970-something and getting into arguments on the Internet about "true metal," haha.
Anyway, arguments over governmental structure have always seemed silly to me, because there's no plausible empirical evidence or logical argumentation that supports that particular governmental structures are more likely to have or not have specific (sorts of) laws.
I really couldn't care less what the governmental structure is of the country I live in. I care what laws we do and don't have. I have no belief that I'm more likely to wind up with the laws I'd like to see if everyone is voting on them versus just a single individual versus a small group of individuals, etc. I'm in the U.S., and it's certainly not as if I agree with most of the laws we have in place. If I were king, things would be radically different.
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Ban
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@tepebenjamin
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Post by Ban on Apr 28, 2017 16:32:25 GMT
Democracy is awful, not necessarily for those reasons
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PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 28, 2017 20:18:46 GMT
Re "true captain", I can just imagine Plato being born in 1970-something and getting into arguments on the Internet about "true metal," haha. Anyway, arguments over governmental structure have always seemed silly to me, because there's no plausible empirical evidence or logical argumentation that supports that particular governmental structures are more likely to have or not have specific (sorts of) laws. I really couldn't care less what the governmental structure is of the country I live in. I care what laws we do and don't have. I have no belief that I'm more likely to wind up with the laws I'd like to see if everyone is voting on them versus just a single individual versus a small group of individuals, etc. I'm in the U.S., and it's certainly not as if I agree with most of the laws we have in place. If I were king, things would be radically different. You don't think a structure were those who have mastered the art of navigation control the ship vs a structure where those who didn't even know there was such a thing would lead is no different in terms of what decisions would be made? You dont think better decisions woukd be made by the former? Regardless do your nit think this is a good description of democracy? |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Apr 28, 2017 20:25:47 GMT
Re "true captain", I can just imagine Plato being born in 1970-something and getting into arguments on the Internet about "true metal," haha. Anyway, arguments over governmental structure have always seemed silly to me, because there's no plausible empirical evidence or logical argumentation that supports that particular governmental structures are more likely to have or not have specific (sorts of) laws. I really couldn't care less what the governmental structure is of the country I live in. I care what laws we do and don't have. I have no belief that I'm more likely to wind up with the laws I'd like to see if everyone is voting on them versus just a single individual versus a small group of individuals, etc. I'm in the U.S., and it's certainly not as if I agree with most of the laws we have in place. If I were king, things would be radically different. You don't think a structure were those who have mastered the art of navigation control the ship vs a structure where those who didn't even know there was such a thing would lead is no different in terms of what decisions would be made? You dont think better decisions woukd be made by the former? Regardless do your nit think this is a good description of democracy? There are no normative facts. No facts about what a society should do, what laws it should have, etc. So it's not a situation akin to either being able to navigate a ship or not. |
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PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on Apr 28, 2017 21:34:35 GMT
You don't think a structure were those who have mastered the art of navigation control the ship vs a structure where those who didn't even know there was such a thing would lead is no different in terms of what decisions would be made? You dont think better decisions woukd be made by the former? Regardless do your nit think this is a good description of democracy? There are no normative facts. No facts about what a society should do, what laws it should have, etc. So it's not a situation akin to either being able to navigate a ship or not. Care to elaborate? |
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Post by Terrapin Station on Apr 29, 2017 21:42:33 GMT
There are no normative facts. No facts about what a society should do, what laws it should have, etc. So it's not a situation akin to either being able to navigate a ship or not. Care to elaborate? Is there a specific part that's not clear to you? |
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Deleted
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@Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 20:15:53 GMT
Last time I checked, it's a group effort to keep a ship afloat. Besides which, the analogy doesn't really work. We've seen what giving all the power to one True Captain does to a country many times over the centuries, and it rarely turns out well for everyone else on-board. By having checks and balances in place, it makes abusing power harder and a coup more difficult.
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PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on May 4, 2017 22:25:53 GMT
Last time I checked, it's a group effort to keep a ship afloat. Besides which, the analogy doesn't really work. We've seen what giving all the power to one True Captain does to a country many times over the centuries, and it rarely turns out well for everyone else on-board. By having checks and balances in place, it makes abusing power harder and a coup more difficult. We are not talking about your average dictator. Also Plato believed there should be multiple "true captains" running the state. |
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Post by general313 on May 4, 2017 23:01:31 GMT
Last time I checked, it's a group effort to keep a ship afloat. Besides which, the analogy doesn't really work. We've seen what giving all the power to one True Captain does to a country many times over the centuries, and it rarely turns out well for everyone else on-board. By having checks and balances in place, it makes abusing power harder and a coup more difficult. We are not talking about your average dictator. Also Plato believed there should be multiple "true captains" running the state. Did Plato by any chance provide any guidelines on how to identify these "true captains"? |
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PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on May 5, 2017 9:01:16 GMT
We are not talking about your average dictator. Also Plato believed there should be multiple "true captains" running the state. Did Plato by any chance provide any guidelines on how to identify these "true captains"? Yes. They must be the wisest (experts in the philosophical method and apply it everywhere) and only be interested in benifitting the people. He also suggested that they don't own private property so they are not motivated by greed. |
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Post by general313 on May 5, 2017 14:43:03 GMT
Did Plato by any chance provide any guidelines on how to identify these "true captains"? Yes. They must be the wisest (experts in the philosophical method and apply it everywhere) and only be interested in benifitting the people. He also suggested that they don't own private property so they are not motivated by greed. Who gets to judge who is the wisest, etc.? |
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PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on May 5, 2017 16:39:48 GMT
Yes. They must be the wisest (experts in the philosophical method and apply it everywhere) and only be interested in benifitting the people. He also suggested that they don't own private property so they are not motivated by greed. Who gets to judge who is the wisest, etc.? Couldn't it just be tested via logic tests? |
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Post by general313 on May 5, 2017 18:59:36 GMT
Who gets to judge who is the wisest, etc.? Couldn't it just be tested via logic tests? No, wisdom isn't measured by logic tests. Otherwise corporations could always hire competent CEOs and Apple would have found a worthy replacement for Steve Jobs. The best leader for a country isn't the one that scores highest on a Boolean algebra test. Possessing skill or genius in diplomacy requires advanced development in multiple disciplines: skill in logic is an asset, but also needed are strategic, language and social skills, to name a few. Any test would require more than a series of multiple choice questions, and grading would involve a subjective evaluation, and that requires assigning a grader. Hence my question: Who gets to judge who is the wisest,? |
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PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on May 6, 2017 8:27:00 GMT
Couldn't it just be tested via logic tests? No, wisdom isn't measured by logic tests. Otherwise corporations could always hire competent CEOs and Apple would have found a worthy replacement for Steve Jobs. The best leader for a country isn't the one that scores highest on a Boolean algebra test. Possessing skill or genius in diplomacy requires advanced development in multiple disciplines: skill in logic is an asset, but also needed are strategic, language and social skills, to name a few. Any test would require more than a series of multiple choice questions, and grading would involve a subjective evaluation, and that requires assigning a grader. Hence my question: Who gets to judge who is the wisest,? Then just have a separate test for diplomats. |
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Post by general313 on May 6, 2017 17:11:00 GMT
No, wisdom isn't measured by logic tests. Otherwise corporations could always hire competent CEOs and Apple would have found a worthy replacement for Steve Jobs. The best leader for a country isn't the one that scores highest on a Boolean algebra test. Possessing skill or genius in diplomacy requires advanced development in multiple disciplines: skill in logic is an asset, but also needed are strategic, language and social skills, to name a few. Any test would require more than a series of multiple choice questions, and grading would involve a subjective evaluation, and that requires assigning a grader. Hence my question: Who gets to judge who is the wisest,? Then just have a separate test for diplomats. Doesn't answer my question. |
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PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on May 6, 2017 17:36:00 GMT
Then just have a separate test for diplomats. Doesn't answer my question. "Any test would require more than a series of multiple choice questions, and grading would involve a subjective evaluation, and that requires assigning a grader. Hence my question: Who gets to judge who is the wisest,? Not neccessarily. Logicians all agree that if some As are Bs and some Bs are Cs it is not true that there neccessarily must be some As that are Cs. This is the case for almost all of logic. Logicians just object to whether these logical principles apply in certain cases. A test that tests logic that is independant of political theory, philosophy or whatever subjects can be made. There can just be tests were one must say break out of prison and logic will be at the forefront of the test. Have you read the book Ender's game? There could be a testing procedure similar to that. |
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Post by general313 on May 6, 2017 20:02:12 GMT
Doesn't answer my question. "Any test would require more than a series of multiple choice questions, and grading would involve a subjective evaluation, and that requires assigning a grader. Hence my question: Who gets to judge who is the wisest,? Not neccessarily. Logicians all agree that if some As are Bs and some Bs are Cs it is not true that there neccessarily must be some As that are Cs. This is the case for almost all of logic. Logicians just object to whether these logical principles apply in certain cases. A test that tests logic that is independant of political theory, philosophy or whatever subjects can be made. There can just be tests were one must say break out of prison and logic will be at the forefront of the test. Have you read the book Ender's game? There could be a testing procedure similar to that. But you're assuming that the best leader can be found by selecting one that is most proficient at logic, which I simply don't agree with. You can't measure potential for being a visionary leader with logic tests. |
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PanLeo
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@saoradh
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Post by PanLeo on May 6, 2017 20:06:58 GMT
"Any test would require more than a series of multiple choice questions, and grading would involve a subjective evaluation, and that requires assigning a grader. Hence my question: Who gets to judge who is the wisest,? Not neccessarily. Logicians all agree that if some As are Bs and some Bs are Cs it is not true that there neccessarily must be some As that are Cs. This is the case for almost all of logic. Logicians just object to whether these logical principles apply in certain cases. A test that tests logic that is independant of political theory, philosophy or whatever subjects can be made. There can just be tests were one must say break out of prison and logic will be at the forefront of the test. Have you read the book Ender's game? There could be a testing procedure similar to that. But you're assuming that the best leader can be found by selecting one that is most proficient at logic, which I simply don't agree with. You can't measure potential for being a visionary leader with logic tests. Why? Either way do you seriously think the uneducated populace is better to decide? |
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Post by general313 on May 6, 2017 20:24:06 GMT
But you're assuming that the best leader can be found by selecting one that is most proficient at logic, which I simply don't agree with. You can't measure potential for being a visionary leader with logic tests. Why? Either way do you seriously think the uneducated populace is better to decide? As I said before, the best leader for a country isn't the one that scores highest on a Boolean algebra test. Possessing skill or genius in diplomacy requires advanced development in multiple disciplines: skill in logic is an asset, but also needed are strategic, language and social skills, to name a few. I didn't mention it before but there's also the issue of character. A serial pathological liar could pass a logic test with flying colors and yet be a horrible choice for a position of power. As Winston Churchill said once, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." |
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