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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Feb 17, 2020 13:34:15 GMT
Although I voted Black Sox, they only cost their fans and bettors. Astros cost players and others in organizations money, awards, and roster spots. Steroids guys did as well, especially if it was illegal at the time. Though I suppose the Sox cost teammates who weren't aware of the tank job. Well said Sir.
All that needs to be done now is to change your vote.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Feb 17, 2020 16:07:15 GMT
The "Black Sox" (1919, btw) did what they did to LOSE games. At least the Astros were trying for a positive result To me, that makes it worse. Black Sox took a dive for cash, nobody loses but the fans. The Astros stole the championship from teams that would've beaten them. The integrity of the game was still compromised, the outcome is still illegitimate, plus teams got screwed out of a championship. Black Sox only screwed themselves. Funny you should use the word "integrity". Because that's exactly what the Black Sox damaged.
And all of you do know that the Sox were throwing games in 1920 too?
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 17, 2020 16:42:51 GMT
To me, that makes it worse. Black Sox took a dive for cash, nobody loses but the fans. The Astros stole the championship from teams that would've beaten them. The integrity of the game was still compromised, the outcome is still illegitimate, plus teams got screwed out of a championship. Black Sox only screwed themselves. Funny you should use the word "integrity". Because that's exactly what the Black Sox damaged.
And all of you do know that the Sox were throwing games in 1920 too?
That was my point, so did the Astros. Whether a team is taking a dive or caught blatantly cheating to win, the integrity of the game is compromised. The only difference is the Sox only screwed themselves to achieve the desired result. The Astros screwed other teams as well as any casual fans that expected the games to be on the level. Astros fan can say, "Hey they were trying to win," which is true. But that only makes the outcome acceptable to them. It's no less fraudulent to everyone else. I'm a Patriots fan and I've been listening to this cheating argument for years now. The difference is Deflategate was debunked and while the Pats were guilty of taping signals from the wrong angle, no scheme has ever been revealed as to how they used those signals to affect games in real time. Players left the Astros and immediately started running their mouths. We know what they were doing and how rampant it was in the team culture. We know what they were doing to gain an advantage and the home/road splits are incredible. It's been more than a decade since Spygate and I still haven't heard a disgruntled former player or coach tell us how the Patriots used those signals to gain an advantage. Even Eric Mangini who originally blew the whistle on Spygate (and remains a bitter rival to Belichick) never explained how those tapes were used to gain an advantage. (I'd also like to point out they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs in 2002 while they were supposedly taping signals to gain an advantage, and they've gone to 6 Super Bowls since Spygate but I digress...) If anyone could establish a link between taped signals from disallowed locations, and game play, let alone winning titles, I'd have to reevaluate my Patriots fanhood if it became clear they only succeeded by cheating. Cheating to win, to the extent the Astros appear to be guilty, is the equivalent of throwing a game from a moral standpoint. There's stealing signs with a runner on second which has been happening since the game was invented and there's setting up an elaborate system using electronics, banging trash cans, etc. It's a step away from a scripted outcome of a game if you know what your opponent is going to do every minute of the game. Why play the games, and most important to the league, why should anyone watch?
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Post by screamingtreefrogs on Feb 17, 2020 16:58:38 GMT
Funny you should use the word "integrity". Because that's exactly what the Black Sox damaged.
And all of you do know that the Sox were throwing games in 1920 too?
That was my point, so did the Astros. Whether a team is taking a dive or caught blatantly cheating to win, the integrity of the game is compromised. The only difference is the Sox only screwed themselves to achieve the desired result. The Astros screwed other teams as well as any casual fans that expected the games to be on the level. Astros fan can say, "Hey they were trying to win," which is true. But that only makes the outcome acceptable to them. It's no less fraudulent to everyone else. I'm a Patriots fan and I've been listening to this cheating argument for years now. The difference is Deflategate was debunked and while the Pats were guilty of taping signals from the wrong angle, no scheme has ever been revealed as to how they used those signals to affect games in real time. Players left the Astros and immediately started running their mouths. We know what they were doing and how rampant it was in the team culture. We know what they were doing to gain an advantage and the home/road splits are incredible. It's been more than a decade since Spygate and I still haven't heard a disgruntled former player or coach tell us how the Patriots used those signals to gain an advantage. Even Eric Mangini who originally blew the whistle on Spygate (and remains a bitter rival to Belichick) never explained how those tapes were used to gain an advantage. (I'd also like to point out they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs in 2002 while they were supposedly taping signals to gain an advantage, and they've gone to 6 Super Bowls since Spygate but I digress...) If anyone could establish a link between taped signals from disallowed locations, and game play, let alone winning titles, I'd have to reevaluate my Patriots fanhood if it became clear they only succeeded by cheating. Cheating to win, to the extent the Astros appear to be guilty, is the equivalent of throwing a game from a moral standpoint. There's stealing signs with a runner on second which has been happening since the game was invented and there's setting up an elaborate system using electronics, banging trash cans, etc. It's a step away from a scripted outcome of a game if you know what your opponent is going to do every minute of the game. Why play the games, and most important to the league, why should anyone watch? preach....
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Feb 17, 2020 17:00:18 GMT
Funny you should use the word "integrity". Because that's exactly what the Black Sox damaged.
And all of you do know that the Sox were throwing games in 1920 too?
That was my point, so did the Astros. Whether a team is taking a dive or caught blatantly cheating to win, the integrity of the game is compromised. The only difference is the Sox only screwed themselves to achieve the desired result. The Astros screwed other teams as well as any casual fans that expected the games to be on the level. Astros fan can say, "Hey they were trying to win," which is true. But that only makes the outcome acceptable to them. It's no less fraudulent to everyone else. I'm a Patriots fan and I've been listening to this cheating argument for years now. The difference is Deflategate was debunked and while the Pats were guilty of taping signals from the wrong angle, no scheme has ever been revealed as to how they used those signals to affect games in real time. Players left the Astros and immediately started running their mouths. We know what they were doing and how rampant it was in the team culture. We know what they were doing to gain an advantage and the home/road splits are incredible. It's been more than a decade since Spygate and I still haven't heard a disgruntled former player or coach tell us how the Patriots used those signals to gain an advantage. Even Eric Mangini who originally blew the whistle on Spygate (and remains a bitter rival to Belichick) never explained how those tapes were used to gain an advantage. (I'd also like to point out they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs in 2002 while they were supposedly taping signals to gain an advantage, and they've gone to 6 Super Bowls since Spygate but I digress...) If anyone could establish a link between taped signals from disallowed locations, and game play, let alone winning titles, I'd have to reevaluate my Patriots fanhood if it became clear they only succeeded by cheating. Cheating to win, to the extent the Astros appear to be guilty, is the equivalent of throwing a game from a moral standpoint. There's stealing signs with a runner on second which has been happening since the game was invented and there's setting up an elaborate system using electronics, banging trash cans, etc. It's a step away from a scripted outcome of a game if you know what your opponent is going to do every minute of the game. Why play the games, and most important to the league, why should anyone watch? It's funny to hear the word "cheating" thrown about like it's a game of Go Fish when you were six years old. Major League Baseball, and the winning of titles, are a multi billion dollar industry. If it meant winning a World Series or not, you would sell your grandmother to be gang raped by a biker gang. Do not pretend that if you were a GM of a team and you were given an illegal means to win games that you would strike a noble pose and say "Zounds, none of that illegal shenanigans for me. I'd rather lose 95 games." Do I condone it, absolutely not. Should the WS titles be stripped, no. There's no precedence for it. MLB should make provisions that, if it happens again, wins will be taken away. And lets not pretend that this hasn't happened before.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 17, 2020 17:19:21 GMT
That was my point, so did the Astros. Whether a team is taking a dive or caught blatantly cheating to win, the integrity of the game is compromised. The only difference is the Sox only screwed themselves to achieve the desired result. The Astros screwed other teams as well as any casual fans that expected the games to be on the level. Astros fan can say, "Hey they were trying to win," which is true. But that only makes the outcome acceptable to them. It's no less fraudulent to everyone else. I'm a Patriots fan and I've been listening to this cheating argument for years now. The difference is Deflategate was debunked and while the Pats were guilty of taping signals from the wrong angle, no scheme has ever been revealed as to how they used those signals to affect games in real time. Players left the Astros and immediately started running their mouths. We know what they were doing and how rampant it was in the team culture. We know what they were doing to gain an advantage and the home/road splits are incredible. It's been more than a decade since Spygate and I still haven't heard a disgruntled former player or coach tell us how the Patriots used those signals to gain an advantage. Even Eric Mangini who originally blew the whistle on Spygate (and remains a bitter rival to Belichick) never explained how those tapes were used to gain an advantage. (I'd also like to point out they went 9-7 and missed the playoffs in 2002 while they were supposedly taping signals to gain an advantage, and they've gone to 6 Super Bowls since Spygate but I digress...) If anyone could establish a link between taped signals from disallowed locations, and game play, let alone winning titles, I'd have to reevaluate my Patriots fanhood if it became clear they only succeeded by cheating. Cheating to win, to the extent the Astros appear to be guilty, is the equivalent of throwing a game from a moral standpoint. There's stealing signs with a runner on second which has been happening since the game was invented and there's setting up an elaborate system using electronics, banging trash cans, etc. It's a step away from a scripted outcome of a game if you know what your opponent is going to do every minute of the game. Why play the games, and most important to the league, why should anyone watch? It's funny to hear the word "cheating" thrown about like it's a game of Go Fish when you were six years old. Major League Baseball, and the winning of titles, are a multi billion dollar industry. If it meant winning a World Series or not, you would sell your grandmother to be gang raped by a biker gang. Do not pretend that if you were a GM of a team and you were given an illegal means to win games that you would strike a noble pose and say "Zounds, none of that illegal shenanigans for me. I'd rather lose 95 games." Do I condone it, absolutely not. Should the WS titles be stripped, no. There's no precedence for it. MLB should make provisions that, if it happens again, wins will be taken away. And lets not pretend that this hasn't happened before.
Agreed there's no precedent for it, so I'm not advocating for the Astros to lose their title. I'm just saying in my opinion, cheating at the level they were cheating is as bad as throwing a game. This isn't getting away with holding in football or even peaking at the catcher during an AB. This is systematic circumvention of the rules that was proven to directly affect the outcome of every game. That's as bad as it gets in sports.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Feb 17, 2020 17:32:32 GMT
It's funny to hear the word "cheating" thrown about like it's a game of Go Fish when you were six years old. Major League Baseball, and the winning of titles, are a multi billion dollar industry. If it meant winning a World Series or not, you would sell your grandmother to be gang raped by a biker gang. Do not pretend that if you were a GM of a team and you were given an illegal means to win games that you would strike a noble pose and say "Zounds, none of that illegal shenanigans for me. I'd rather lose 95 games." Do I condone it, absolutely not. Should the WS titles be stripped, no. There's no precedence for it. MLB should make provisions that, if it happens again, wins will be taken away. And lets not pretend that this hasn't happened before.
Agreed there's no precedent for it, so I'm not advocating for the Astros to lose their title. I'm just saying in my opinion, cheating at the level they were cheating is as bad as throwing a game. This isn't getting away with holding in football or even peaking at the catcher during an AB. This is systematic circumvention of the rules that was proven to directly affect the outcome of every game. That's as bad as it gets in sports. If there was an actual game fix, it would make this look like cheating in a game of Go Fish. There really hasn't been one since 1920 (the Super Bowl III allegations are stupid). If it was discovered that the 49ers threw the SB, it would be off the charts.
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Post by shadyvsesham on Feb 18, 2020 12:11:10 GMT
Astros Who did the Black Sox hurt but themselves and their fanbase. Nobody that's who. 'Stros pissed all over the game while losing their integrity, hurt their own fanbase, hurt other franchises and their fanbases as well.
This is a no-brainer folks - I'm disappointed in you.
It is good that I am a Houston Rockets fan and not a Houston Astros fan. Can you imagine the shame and ignominy that Astros fans might be going through right now? I'm a houston fan. These sobs told me stop whining they'll be back you just won in 2017... Yea Fuck. Let's see the two rockets titles all I hear is well Michael Jordan... And now this. Hey how about those Texans Superbowls...wait they don't exist. Pain and misery...
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Feb 18, 2020 14:54:50 GMT
It is good that I am a Houston Rockets fan and not a Houston Astros fan. Can you imagine the shame and ignominy that Astros fans might be going through right now? I'm a houston fan. These sobs told me stop whining they'll be back you just won in 2017... Yea Fuck. Let's see the two rockets titles all I hear is well Michael Jordan... And now this. Hey how about those Texans Superbowls...wait they don't exist. Pain and misery... You'll always have those Comets WNBA titles.
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