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Post by dazz on Apr 11, 2020 2:12:27 GMT
Well all the past taking the name stuff was tongue in cheek, but in actuality no Luke never gives her his Lightsabre or Jedi text, no one gave her the Falcon she just assumed ownership of it seemingly, Luke did give her his old X-Wing however, but then who gave her R2 or C3PO or BB8? then she just assumes the position of head Jedi after Luke & Leia die also.
And the did Braun's sister do this don't matter, finding out who Vader actually was, and in turn who Luke & Leia's father actually was destroyed Leia's political career, and Luke never killed Palpatine that was Vader, and Han, Chewie and Lando are responsible for destroying the 2nd Death Star and crippling the Empire not the children of Vader, Leia got shot and in the end was no major help, it was Chewie comendeering the walker and Han tricking the bunker guards that led to lowering the shields and then Lando taking out the Death Star, Luke literally does nothing in ROTJ to topple the empire, it's like Indiana Jones in Raiders, but instead of Indy stopping the Nazi's being pointless it's a case of whether Luke wins or loses his battle for his fathers soul other people still blow up the Death Star regardless.
And Luke never trained her really, he told her he'd give her 2 lessons, he spent what 2 days with her? and Leia's name was Organa she never went by Skywalker I don't think, that or maybe she also went by Solo for a time who knows, but Skywalker is still Anakin's family name so she is still taking the family name of her Grandfather/Father's partner in war crimes.
Maz gave her the lightsaber, but she turned away from it and kept it after her fight with Kylo. She even gave it back to Luke. She then tried to throw away her next lightsaber into a pyre, but then that too was given to her by Luke. She took the texts before Luke could burn them. She was never given the Falcon except when she used it as a means to escape. When did she assume ownership of the Falcon? We keep seeing Chewie fly it. R2 and C-3PO are a part of the Resistance and belonged to Leia. BB-8 belonged to Poe. Wait... are you just saying that things that were withing 5ft of her now belongs to her?
Yeah, but Luke turned Vader. I like how you took Leia out of that group that was on Endor when they took out the shield.
Luke taught Rey how to control the Force. So you saying Leia being related to the Skywalkers as daughter and sister still doesn't give her the right to be a Skywalker even if she went by a different last name? Skywalker is also the name of the war hero, Luke. People saw him as such.
Well I like how you miss the part where I said her taking this shit was said tongue in cheek, aka I was taking the piss mate, but ok lets go with it for fun, the lightsabre is not Maz's to give it's a Skywalker family heirloom, it belonged to Anakin, Luke threw it aside, that doesn't mean it's not legally Rey's, if Luke doesn't want it then it should go to Leia or Kylo who are also heirs to Anakin's things, in fact she throws it to Kylo then tries to snatch it back from him iirc, leading to them to break it, well done Rey you tried to steal Kylo's inheritance and destroyed it, same goes to Kylo but atleast he had a right to it, as for the Falcon Chewie maybe piloting but iirc, and I maybe wrong here admittedly, but she is the one giving orders not him, as for BB8 I dunno she seems to assume ownership of him a bit, dunno about you but if I damage someone else's stuff I don't brush it off and act like it doesn't matter, Rey did that with BB-8 when Poe gets back with the Falcon damaged, and she alone it seems like takes BB-8 and the Falcon to Tatooine at the end of the movie.
I didn't leave Leia out I simply didn't give her undo credit, she fought to take down DS2, but it was Cheqie who took over the walker, Han who had the plan to trick the Imperials in the bunker and Lando and the other guy who destroyed the DS, what do you also credit Ackbar for destroying DS2 because he was there? no he fought in the battle but he wasn't key to destroying it, that's Han, Chewie, Lando and the other dude, Leia could have been if she hadn't been shot in the attempt, so it was neither child of Vader that was specifically responsible for the victory that day, though maybe Leia is credited for recruiting the Ewoks, though I don't recall if that was due to her or Han ordering 3P0 that did it to be fair.
Luke did not teach Rey to control the force, he guided her into taping into it the first time intentionally that's about it, even then he was half taking the piss, also no she stole the text after she attacked him from behind after Kylo manipulates her and because Luke then easily bested her in a stick on stick fight she resorted to threatening him with a Lightsabre, only AFTER this does Luke go to burn the text, she literally decided fuck him I want them I will take them.
And do we know that Skywalker is meant to be a heroes name? Anakin is revealed to be Vader, his grandson is/was the right hand of Supreme Leader Snoke and later Supreme Leader himself of the First Order, Luke is the man who taught him and then ran away as soon as Kylo did, he's also the guy who didn't help destroy DS2 even slightly, I mean sure to the Resistance and to the backwaters of the galaxy like Jakku he's a hero but what about everywhere else, does Luke's hits and misses over a few years overcome the legacy of Darth Vader? and even so it's still the last name of the guy who helped the enslave the galaxy, I mean lots of people were named Adolf in the past, doesn't matter that one specific Adolf tainted the name, similar to how the Nazi's forever altered what the swastika originally represented, Rey may have picked the name to honour Luke, though it is weird she does and not Organa the name Leia does go by or Amidala in honour of her and Luke's mother, both of which are respected names with no dark baggage, because in the end Skywalker is still the name of the guy who slaughtered children for his own ends.
Still this is mostly me taking the mickey, I know what you are saying is what they wanted it to come across as but it is still funny when you think about it, she didn't take the name of this one war criminal and murdering piece of shit, she instead took the name of his friend who is also a war criminal and murdering piece of shit, except atleast this guy felt bad about it from time to time and finally did the right thing when he saw his son being electrocuted to death, or did he? I mean he wanted Luke to save him before so they could rule the galaxy, so was this a fathers noble sacrifice or did Vader try to simply off Palpy and ended up dying because of it and no one realised? 
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 11, 2020 4:38:33 GMT
Well all the past taking the name stuff was tongue in cheek, but in actuality no Luke never gives her his Lightsabre or Jedi text, no one gave her the Falcon she just assumed ownership of it seemingly, Luke did give her his old X-Wing however, but then who gave her R2 or C3PO or BB8? then she just assumes the position of head Jedi after Luke & Leia die also.
And the did Braun's sister do this don't matter, finding out who Vader actually was, and in turn who Luke & Leia's father actually was destroyed Leia's political career, and Luke never killed Palpatine that was Vader, and Han, Chewie and Lando are responsible for destroying the 2nd Death Star and crippling the Empire not the children of Vader, Leia got shot and in the end was no major help, it was Chewie comendeering the walker and Han tricking the bunker guards that led to lowering the shields and then Lando taking out the Death Star, Luke literally does nothing in ROTJ to topple the empire, it's like Indiana Jones in Raiders, but instead of Indy stopping the Nazi's being pointless it's a case of whether Luke wins or loses his battle for his fathers soul other people still blow up the Death Star regardless.
And Luke never trained her really, he told her he'd give her 2 lessons, he spent what 2 days with her? and Leia's name was Organa she never went by Skywalker I don't think, that or maybe she also went by Solo for a time who knows, but Skywalker is still Anakin's family name so she is still taking the family name of her Grandfather/Father's partner in war crimes.
Maz gave her the lightsaber, but she turned away from it and kept it after her fight with Kylo. She even gave it back to Luke. She then tried to throw away her next lightsaber into a pyre, but then that too was given to her by Luke. She took the texts before Luke could burn them. She was never given the Falcon except when she used it as a means to escape. When did she assume ownership of the Falcon? We keep seeing Chewie fly it. R2 and C-3PO are a part of the Resistance and belonged to Leia. BB-8 belonged to Poe. Wait... are you just saying that things that were withing 5ft of her now belongs to her?
Yeah, but Luke turned Vader. I like how you took Leia out of that group that was on Endor when they took out the shield.
Luke taught Rey how to control the Force. So you saying Leia being related to the Skywalkers as daughter and sister still doesn't give her the right to be a Skywalker even if she went by a different last name? Skywalker is also the name of the war hero, Luke. People saw him as such.
Uhhhh... no. Luke did not train Rey how to control the Force. This is wrong on so many levels and people need to stop claiming this. Just because Luke gave Rey 2 lessons doesn’t mean that he actually trained her to control the Force. First he asked Rey to concentrate on the Force. And when she did he was so impressed with her power that it scared him. He didn’t go any further. He also asked Rey to distinguish between the Light and the Dark. She failed that and then ventured into a Darkside vergence cave against his advice. So there was nothing taught and learned there. Rey then proceeded to teach herself how to master lightsaber skills. On top of all that, we see in the opening of the next movie that Leia is teaching Rey to master her physical skills and Force concentration. Because obviously Luke had no impact on Rey’s development. Luke did not train Rey. Not really. And episodes 8 and 9 went out of their way to point that out. |
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 11, 2020 7:36:44 GMT
I think the movie should have ended with her taking her grandfathers place and ruled the universe as a Sith lord. Second best to that would have been her dying in Ben Solo’s arms. |
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 11, 2020 7:48:08 GMT
Rey shouldn’t take the Falcon. It would have gone to Leia upon Han’s death and then to Ben Solo upon her death. After Ben Solo died, as he had no next of kin and I’m assuming didn’t leave a will, it should be given to the government. That’s what happens if you don’t leave a will or have any next of kin. Maybe not in a Galaxy far far away especially way back a long time ago, it should have gone to his family, Chewie OR the people he owed money to, and lets be honest Han owed a few people quite a bit of money remember.
Rey getting it is like huh? really? why? unless in TROS it is Chewie or Leia's, I hear Poe and Rey bicker about it at some point so I hope Chewie yells at them like the dad yelling at the kids on a long road trip to stop bickering and behave, doubt it though.
That’s right. Han owed money. The executor of his estate should have sold the Falcon to pay off his debts. |
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 11, 2020 7:50:36 GMT
I reckon she was going to try to live in Uncle Owen’s house as well.
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 11, 2020 10:38:27 GMT
Where was this scene in the movie? I can’t recall if it happened. When Rey found the Emperor’s quarters on Exegol the first thing she had to do was piss as it was a long flight. That’s the Emperor’s bathroom. |
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Post by James on Apr 11, 2020 10:39:41 GMT
Where was this scene in the movie? I can’t recall if it happened. When Rey found the Emperor’s quarters on Exegol the first thing she had to do was piss as it was a long flight. That’s the Emperor’s bathroom. 🤣 Oh you. |
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Post by shannondegroot on Apr 11, 2020 13:22:19 GMT
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 11, 2020 18:30:59 GMT
It explains why Rey is such a bitch in TFA. She’s Palpatine’s granddaughter ffs.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 11, 2020 19:05:06 GMT
Maz gave her the lightsaber, but she turned away from it and kept it after her fight with Kylo. She even gave it back to Luke. She then tried to throw away her next lightsaber into a pyre, but then that too was given to her by Luke. She took the texts before Luke could burn them. She was never given the Falcon except when she used it as a means to escape. When did she assume ownership of the Falcon? We keep seeing Chewie fly it. R2 and C-3PO are a part of the Resistance and belonged to Leia. BB-8 belonged to Poe. Wait... are you just saying that things that were withing 5ft of her now belongs to her?
Yeah, but Luke turned Vader. I like how you took Leia out of that group that was on Endor when they took out the shield.
Luke taught Rey how to control the Force. So you saying Leia being related to the Skywalkers as daughter and sister still doesn't give her the right to be a Skywalker even if she went by a different last name? Skywalker is also the name of the war hero, Luke. People saw him as such.
Well I like how you miss the part where I said her taking this shit was said tongue in cheek, aka I was taking the piss mate, but ok lets go with it for fun, the lightsabre is not Maz's to give it's a Skywalker family heirloom, it belonged to Anakin, Luke threw it aside, that doesn't mean it's not legally Rey's, if Luke doesn't want it then it should go to Leia or Kylo who are also heirs to Anakin's things, in fact she throws it to Kylo then tries to snatch it back from him iirc, leading to them to break it, well done Rey you tried to steal Kylo's inheritance and destroyed it, same goes to Kylo but atleast he had a right to it, as for the Falcon Chewie maybe piloting but iirc, and I maybe wrong here admittedly, but she is the one giving orders not him, as for BB8 I dunno she seems to assume ownership of him a bit, dunno about you but if I damage someone else's stuff I don't brush it off and act like it doesn't matter, Rey did that with BB-8 when Poe gets back with the Falcon damaged, and she alone it seems like takes BB-8 and the Falcon to Tatooine at the end of the movie.
I didn't leave Leia out I simply didn't give her undo credit, she fought to take down DS2, but it was Cheqie who took over the walker, Han who had the plan to trick the Imperials in the bunker and Lando and the other guy who destroyed the DS, what do you also credit Ackbar for destroying DS2 because he was there? no he fought in the battle but he wasn't key to destroying it, that's Han, Chewie, Lando and the other dude, Leia could have been if she hadn't been shot in the attempt, so it was neither child of Vader that was specifically responsible for the victory that day, though maybe Leia is credited for recruiting the Ewoks, though I don't recall if that was due to her or Han ordering 3P0 that did it to be fair.
Luke did not teach Rey to control the force, he guided her into taping into it the first time intentionally that's about it, even then he was half taking the piss, also no she stole the text after she attacked him from behind after Kylo manipulates her and because Luke then easily bested her in a stick on stick fight she resorted to threatening him with a Lightsabre, only AFTER this does Luke go to burn the text, she literally decided fuck him I want them I will take them.
And do we know that Skywalker is meant to be a heroes name? Anakin is revealed to be Vader, his grandson is/was the right hand of Supreme Leader Snoke and later Supreme Leader himself of the First Order, Luke is the man who taught him and then ran away as soon as Kylo did, he's also the guy who didn't help destroy DS2 even slightly, I mean sure to the Resistance and to the backwaters of the galaxy like Jakku he's a hero but what about everywhere else, does Luke's hits and misses over a few years overcome the legacy of Darth Vader? and even so it's still the last name of the guy who helped the enslave the galaxy, I mean lots of people were named Adolf in the past, doesn't matter that one specific Adolf tainted the name, similar to how the Nazi's forever altered what the swastika originally represented, Rey may have picked the name to honour Luke, though it is weird she does and not Organa the name Leia does go by or Amidala in honour of her and Luke's mother, both of which are respected names with no dark baggage, because in the end Skywalker is still the name of the guy who slaughtered children for his own ends.
Still this is mostly me taking the mickey, I know what you are saying is what they wanted it to come across as but it is still funny when you think about it, she didn't take the name of this one war criminal and murdering piece of shit, she instead took the name of his friend who is also a war criminal and murdering piece of shit, except atleast this guy felt bad about it from time to time and finally did the right thing when he saw his son being electrocuted to death, or did he? I mean he wanted Luke to save him before so they could rule the galaxy, so was this a fathers noble sacrifice or did Vader try to simply off Palpy and ended up dying because of it and no one realised?
You misspelled that. Made the sentence different. lol
Nah I think it was a sacrifice. I just finished it on my "Let's watch all the Star Wars movies since there is nothing else to do" run. I didn't notice before, but when Palpatine is electrocuting Luke, you can see Vader behind him looking between the two. I only noticed him doing that when they had the camera only on Vader. He was struggling stopping Palpatine the whole time.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 11, 2020 19:16:19 GMT
Maz gave her the lightsaber, but she turned away from it and kept it after her fight with Kylo. She even gave it back to Luke. She then tried to throw away her next lightsaber into a pyre, but then that too was given to her by Luke. She took the texts before Luke could burn them. She was never given the Falcon except when she used it as a means to escape. When did she assume ownership of the Falcon? We keep seeing Chewie fly it. R2 and C-3PO are a part of the Resistance and belonged to Leia. BB-8 belonged to Poe. Wait... are you just saying that things that were withing 5ft of her now belongs to her?
Yeah, but Luke turned Vader. I like how you took Leia out of that group that was on Endor when they took out the shield.
Luke taught Rey how to control the Force. So you saying Leia being related to the Skywalkers as daughter and sister still doesn't give her the right to be a Skywalker even if she went by a different last name? Skywalker is also the name of the war hero, Luke. People saw him as such.
Uhhhh... no. Luke did not train Rey how to control the Force. This is wrong on so many levels and people need to stop claiming this. Just because Luke gave Rey 2 lessons doesn’t mean that he actually trained her to control the Force. First he asked Rey to concentrate on the Force. And when she did he was so impressed with her power that it scared him. He didn’t go any further. He also asked Rey to distinguish between the Light and the Dark. She failed that and then ventured into a Darkside vergence cave against his advice. So there was nothing taught and learned there. Rey then proceeded to teach herself how to master lightsaber skills. On top of all that, we see in the opening of the next movie that Leia is teaching Rey to master her physical skills and Force concentration. Because obviously Luke had no impact on Rey’s development. Luke did not train Rey. Not really. And episodes 8 and 9 went out of their way to point that out. That's like saying that Yoda didn't train Luke. All he told Luke to do was concentrate when lifting those rocks. He also taught him some lessons in cardio. Did he teach him anything else besides philosophy?
And Rey didn't teach herself how to master lightsaber skills. All she did was trade her staff for the lightsaber.
You do know that Luke died right? You saying that Luke didn't train her, but Leia did, is like saying that Obi Wan didn't train Luke, but Yoda did. 1 lesson is still getting some training.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 11, 2020 21:26:39 GMT
Uhhhh... no. Luke did not train Rey how to control the Force. This is wrong on so many levels and people need to stop claiming this. Just because Luke gave Rey 2 lessons doesn’t mean that he actually trained her to control the Force. First he asked Rey to concentrate on the Force. And when she did he was so impressed with her power that it scared him. He didn’t go any further. He also asked Rey to distinguish between the Light and the Dark. She failed that and then ventured into a Darkside vergence cave against his advice. So there was nothing taught and learned there. Rey then proceeded to teach herself how to master lightsaber skills. On top of all that, we see in the opening of the next movie that Leia is teaching Rey to master her physical skills and Force concentration. Because obviously Luke had no impact on Rey’s development. Luke did not train Rey. Not really. And episodes 8 and 9 went out of their way to point that out. That's like saying that Yoda didn't train Luke. All he told Luke to do was concentrate when lifting those rocks. He also taught him some lessons in cardio. Did he teach him anything else besides philosophy? That’s not a fair comparison. Yoda trained Luke for weeks. So there were constant ongoing lessons that were not onscreen. We also saw Luke’s progression; Yoda’s guidance and corrections. Rey was given 2 lessons in which she learned absolutely nothing, and did nothing to progress her use or knowledge of the Force. After that Luke refused to be involved. So, no. It’s not the same thing. Wow! You’re really seeing what you want to see here (instead of what really happened). You do know that the skills of wielding a staff is not the same as the skills of wielding a sword, don’t you? They’re 2 separate disciplines. Just ask any professional or martial artist. You do know that TLJ clearly showed onscreen Rey training and practicing different lightsaber dueling moves after Luke refused to train her, don’t you?... Maybe you need to go back and watch it again. (This isn’t even something that can be argued). [/div][/quote] Firstly I don’t see what Luke dying has to with anything since even if wouldn’t have he still wouldn’t have trained Rey. One lesson is training when the lesson actually makes a difference. We clearly see Luke getting better even with that one session from ObiWan. (Go back and watch ANH and pay attention to the dialogue in that scene). But Luke’s lesson made absolutely no difference in Rey’s ability to use or concentrate on the Force than before he gave it. This is like a master mechanic saying they trained a student how to rebuild a car engine. The student already knew how to rebuild a car engine. And after the lesson that student didn’t rebuild it any better or faster than they did before the lesson. So what did the teacher actually teach them? |
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 11, 2020 21:39:12 GMT
I'm up to The Force Awakens and I just noticed how many times she does that lunge with the lightsaber. It's almost as if they were trying to pound it into our head who she is.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 11, 2020 22:19:20 GMT
That's like saying that Yoda didn't train Luke. All he told Luke to do was concentrate when lifting those rocks. He also taught him some lessons in cardio. Did he teach him anything else besides philosophy? That’s not a fair comparison. Yoda trained Luke for weeks. So there were constant ongoing lessons that were not onscreen. We also saw Luke’s progression; Yoda’s guidance and corrections. Rey was given 2 lessons in which she learned absolutely nothing, and did nothing to progress her use or knowledge of the Force. After that Luke refused to be involved. So, no. It’s not the same thing. Wow! You’re really seeing what you want to see here (instead of what really happened). You do know that the skills of wielding a staff is not the same as the skills of wielding a sword, don’t you? They’re 2 separate disciplines. Just ask any professional or martial artist. You do know that TLJ clearly showed onscreen Rey training and practicing different lightsaber dueling moves after Luke refused to train her, don’t you?... Maybe you need to go back and watch it again. (This isn’t even something that can be argued). [/div] So you are saying that there was stuff that wasn't onscreen. Hmm. Funny that concept only works for Luke being trained. He was there for "weeks" but he was just on moving rocks just before he left for Bespin. Doesn't seem like he had much time to do anything around the cardio he was doing. Also, how do we know he was there for weeks? Refused to be involved? Luke projected himself across the galaxy to be involved. If he would have survived that, he would have trained her and start a new academy. That was the point of Yoda coming to him and telling him that he learned nothing from his training with Yoda (you say Rey didn't learn anything... ha!).
I'm seeing what I want to see? She was using her staff on that rock and put it down and picked up the lightsaber. She was doing the same moves with the lightsaber that she was doing with the staff.
You mean she learned nothing, but when he told her to feel the Force she tried to physically and he teased her about it. But then after he instructed her (that's training) she got it. Then later in the movie, she lifted multiple stones. This showed us that Luke learned a different approach than what he learned from Yoda. That analogy makes no sense. By that logic Luke learned nothing from Yoda because he already knew how to use a lightsaber and he pulled it from the snow. So he didn't learn anything when he moved the rocks. Rey clearly learned something because she was amazed that she picked up all those stones. Rey only got a lesson in how to open herself to the Force from Maz. That's how she was able to beat Kylo. Finn got into a duel twice with the lightsaber. What he didn't have was the Force to augment his movements.
I noticed something else that she did. She stole knowledge from Kylo in her interrogation. Right after that, she knew about Jedi abilities she shouldn't. She knew about the abilities, she just didn't know how to use them... yet. Kylo even tells a Stormtrooper that she's testing her powers and growing stronger by the moment.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 11, 2020 23:18:36 GMT
That’s not a fair comparison. Yoda trained Luke for weeks. So there were constant ongoing lessons that were not onscreen. We also saw Luke’s progression; Yoda’s guidance and corrections. Rey was given 2 lessons in which she learned absolutely nothing, and did nothing to progress her use or knowledge of the Force. After that Luke refused to be involved. So, no. It’s not the same thing. Wow! You’re really seeing what you want to see here (instead of what really happened). You do know that the skills of wielding a staff is not the same as the skills of wielding a sword, don’t you? They’re 2 separate disciplines. Just ask any professional or martial artist. You do know that TLJ clearly showed onscreen Rey training and practicing different lightsaber dueling moves after Luke refused to train her, don’t you?... Maybe you need to go back and watch it again. (This isn’t even something that can be argued). [/div] It works for Luke because the onscreen content and dialogue tell us what is happening in between onscreen moments. Yoda was actively training him. That was the only reason Luke remained there. In the case of Luke and Rey on Achto, right after Luke gives Rey that joke of a training lesson he refused to ever do anything to train her again. The dialogue shows that he never changed his stance. Of course he had time. The only reason he was there and the only thing occupying his time was training from master Yoda. That’s according to TESB novelization. Obviously I’m talking about Luke refusing to get involved in Rey’s training. Don’t try to move goalposts. That’s a pure assumption on your part. There’s nothing in the dialogue of that talk between him and Force ghost Yoda where he said he was ready to become a teacher again. Yeah about that. That was some of the silliest so-called wisdom Yoda ever spouted. First of all, how Luke supposed to have learned from what he said since master Yoda never said anything like that before to Luke or any other apprentice? Which leads me to my next point - he tells Luke experience is the best teacher. But he also said Rey doesn’t need text or training. If experience is the best teacher then why is the least experienced Jedi - Rey - the most successful? Why is that Luke is a failure and he has decades more experience? And if Rey already has everything she needs and doesn’t need any text or training, why did she steal the text that Luke and Yoda thought they were burning in that tree? And why did Rey submit to traditional training from Leia in TROS? (Not even Rey agreed to that so-called wisdom). And why did master Yoda make all of his students for hundreds of years prior committ to text and training? (Sheesh! That was some utter nonsense!) Obviously she wasn’t since they brought in a sword master trainer to teach Ridley those moves she did with the lightsaber. And he was a totally different trainer from who she had with the staff back in TFA. But keep talking... [/div]
Which was no different than when she closed her eyes in TFA and said “The Force.” Except in that instance she had to concentrate to use the Force to do something much more difficult. So how was Luke’s session progressive development from that?
How was it different? I don’t see where it is.
Of course he learned something. Rocks are much heavier than a lightsaber and he was also dealing with multiple objects. These were obviously limitations that he had and needed to be trained to surpass. That’s why he failed at lifting his ship out of the swamp.
She seemed more frightened by her power than anything else. But she already indicated that about herself when she had the lightsaber vision in TFA. And it frightened Luke also.
She was able to beat Kylo because of a power Rey has called “Force Download”. It gives her instantaneous master level abilities with the Force. (Which ironically is one more reason that “training” from Luke was inconsequential).
[/quote] That was fan theory started to defend the question of how Rey could beat Kylo despite not having any training. And I thought I saw something recently that said that that is not canon - it didn’t happen. But if you or someone else can post proof then I’ll retract it. |
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 12, 2020 21:51:56 GMT
Was too much and wouldn't come out right with all the missing brackets.
I'm actually seeing what is in the movie. Yes, staff and sword wielding is two different things. She looks at the staff after swinging it a bit. Then she picks up the lightsaber and starts spinning it around after testing it a few times.
There is nothing saying that Yoda trained him in other things besides what we see. There is no scene showing that they are in the middle of a conversation or lesson. Yoda even tells him that the lesson is over and to clear his mind of questions.
What I'm saying about there not being much time is that he wasn't there for that long. He didn't learn much beyond the philosophy of being a Jedi. He learned to open his mind to the Force from Obi Wan and cardio, a bit of telekinesis and philosophy from Yoda. He left before he could git gud at telekinesis. Even by RotJ, he was still heavy concentrating to use TK when he moved C-3PO. He wasn't going to be like the Jedi of the Republic. I was gonna make the excuse of it being the early 80s, but then I remember Vader moving all kinds of things and snatching fixtures off walls to throw at Luke.
Novelization is not canon to the movies. All we have to go by for passage of time is Han's group. And they weren't in that asteroid for weeks.
I'm not moving goal posts. Luke refused to get involved in any of it. Rey's overall mission was to get Luke to come back with her and help Leia. Her personal mission was for him to train her and even start up a new Jedi academy. Him projecting himself was him opening back up (he cut himself off to the Force) and getting involved again. We don't know what would have happened if he survived, but from his talk with Yoda, I'm sure it would have been him starting up a new academy.
How is that pure assumption? Like I said, his talk with Yoda and him not learning from his own failure shows that he has reverted back to who he was.
I like how you started this post off saying that there was training between scenes and is now saying that he never said anything like that to him. Luke's failure comes from his uncanny ability to doubt himself and wallow in a corner when he fails. He does it in every movie in the OT. He failed in training new Jedi and ran away so no one could find him and die alone. And I just got past this scene, he said all of that in RotJ. Pass on what he has learned: strength, mastery and failure. And in that scene he tells Luke that he lost Ben, but he can't lose Rey. He basically tells him to train more Jedi.
Yeah, for the fight scenes. She didn't do much when it came to practicing on the rock. Remember, they augment themselves with the Force. Who did Luke train against when it came to learning how to duel?
Because he actually told her what it was she did. Yeah, Maz told her to concentrate to open up to the Force, but she had no clue what she was doing. He taught her how to use her feelings and connect with her surroundings. Basically, it's knowing to do something vs knowing how you did it. It's the same with Anakin and pod racing. He was doing Jedi things, but had to be taught how he did it.
Yoda told him that the Force was in everything. Luke showed her how to see the Force in everything. After that lesson, Rey had very little doubts. Right after his lesson with Yoda, Luke doubted his abilities saying that the ship was bigger than the rocks. That shows that the way he taught Luke was different. Yoda said that the weight of something doesn't matter. Rocks being heavier than a lightsaber means nothing. The only limitation is in the Force users head.
She was only frightened by her powers in TFA because at that time she didn't know she had them. She came to an understanding of having them by the end of the movie. In TLJ, she wanted to know where she fit in to everything.
She only did that one time and (going only by the movies) that was only because he forced himself into her head the same way he did with Poe. And, again, it's only surface level. She knows about the abilities, but don't know how to use them. This shown when she tried to use the mind trick.
Proof? It's in the movies. Kylo says he saw things from her, also.
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 12, 2020 22:07:19 GMT
Something I realized about Kylo telling Rey that her parents were nobodies. He says it all came from her head. He learned about her parents from what he saw from her in their connection. It wasn't that her parents were nobodies, it's that deep down, she saw them as nobodies.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Apr 12, 2020 23:56:12 GMT
Was too much and wouldn't come out right with all the missing brackets.
I'm actually seeing what is in the movie. Yes, staff and sword wielding is two different things. She looks at the staff after swinging it a bit. Then she picks up the lightsaber and starts spinning it around after testing it a few times. Yes. But if you pay close attention to her moves with the staff versus her moves with the lightsaber, they are not the same moves. Her stance is very similar, but they are not the same moves. What they were trying to portray onscreen in that part was that Rey decided to stop practicing with the staff and start teaching herself lightsaber dueling (since Luke refused to). Maybe everyone didn’t get the sense of that in watching that scene. Here is a featurette video that talks about that very scene. Pay close attention to the parts with Daisy Ridley. She is training with a new trainer who teaches her the sword/lightsaber moves for that scene. And they clearly say that it is a brand new routine. Because that’s what the scene was trying to portray. Edit: Ignore the first video. I accidentally posted the wrong video. The commentary is in the second video.
C’mon dude! You know those scenes don’t portray what was going on all day, everyday. What do think Luke was doing during all of that offscreen time? Following Yoda around, whining and begging for him to give him his flashlight back!?!
Relatively speaking he may not have learned that much. But it was obviously he learned something in comparison to Rey learning relatively nothing from Luke. And again, Yoda was putting him on that path. He failed with the ship but was moving multiple rocks around while standing on his head later.
Yeah okay. But that was the point. Luke left before he finished his training. He wasn’t on Vader’s level and he failed because of it.
Well if we’re strictly going by what’ onscreen then you can’t say that Luke would’ve started a new academy and been a teacher again. Neither Luke nor Yoda ever say that. They don’t even address it. They just talk about Luke learning from his failure.
If you go back to the start of this particular “bullet point”, you will see that when I said Luke didn’t get involved I was talking about Rey’s training. I’m not sure why you keep interjecting about when he Force projected on Krait. I didn’t even bring that up.
[/span]Exactly. You say I can’t draw logical conclusions from novelizations or stuff that’s offscreen/not onscreen. But now that’s exactly what you’re doing. You can’t have it both ways, dude. [/div]
What I meant when I said that is that Yoda never told any of his students that failure is the greatest teacher. No where onscreen do you ever see this previously. In fact I dare say you don’t see in any of the animated series or the EU material from Yoda. And if your argument is “It could’ve happened offscreen.”, why would Yoda be making this teaching revelation to Luke now?
No Luke doesn’t do that in every SW movie. He doesn’t do it in ROTJ. And that was one of the main themes of ROTJ. That Luke had matured beyond that behavior. Want proof? Leia actually begged Luke to revert back to that behavior. When Luke tells Leia that Vader is their father, Leia tells him to run away, “run far away”. But Luke is determined to confront Vader and turn him back to the Light.
Rian Johnson however, thought it would be self-serving (for multiple ulterior reasons) to completely strip Luke of his character development and revert him back to some grumpy, jaded version of who Luke was in ANH. And that’s putting it mildly.
No one. He only had the training against the remote on the Millennium Falcon in ANH. But then that’s one of the reasons why he failed against Vader.
To say that Luke taught her how to concentrate on the Force with that lesson is quite a stretch. Again, she concentrated of her own free will to do something more difficult in TFA. And she has more intense lessons of concentration in TROS. It would be more accurate to say Leia taught her or she taught herself.
That’s what I said. In Luke’s mind weight and size made it more difficult. Yoda had to teach him to overcome that. And Luke showed his progress when he was standing on his head and moving multiple rocks around.
Proof? It's in the movies. Kylo says he saw things from her, also. [/quote] What I’m saying is the claim that when Rey read Kylo’s mind back, she read all of his knowledge on how to lightsaber duel and all of his knowledge of the Force - that part is a fan theory and not canon nor really onscreen.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Apr 13, 2020 9:50:01 GMT
Something I realized about Kylo telling Rey that her parents were nobodies. He says it all came from her head. He learned about her parents from what he saw from her in their connection. It wasn't that her parents were nobodies, it's that deep down, she saw them as nobodies. mmm... I think it was a retcon of a retcon. Rian Johnson simply wanted to jump onboard the modern take (feminist as well maybe?) that anyone (any female?) can achieve anything. That plays to the casual cinema goer and probably works better than the Arthurian special / chosen one model which basically underpins all of Star Wars. However actual real fans wouldn't accept this Rey "Nobody" storyline because it flies against not only Luke Skywalker in the OT but also the Anakin "chosen one" plot of PT. It subconsciously screams at invested Star Wars fan that it's an affront to the franchise. I don't think JJ ever intended the "nobody" storyline which is why he had to retcon the retcon in TROS. However I think the current zeitgeist played a part in the unsatisfying Palpatine "outcome" (if you want to call flip flopping all the way back to the TFA's teaser that). Rey should clearly have been a Skywalker but showing a privileged lineage in a series of films which had pretty much been about privileged lineage up to that point was too much! |
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Post by ThatGuy on Apr 14, 2020 0:41:44 GMT
Something I realized about Kylo telling Rey that her parents were nobodies. He says it all came from her head. He learned about her parents from what he saw from her in their connection. It wasn't that her parents were nobodies, it's that deep down, she saw them as nobodies. mmm... I think it was a retcon of a retcon. Rian Johnson simply wanted to jump onboard the modern take (feminist as well maybe?) that anyone (any female?) can achieve anything. That plays to the casual cinema goer and probably works better than the Arthurian special / chosen one model which basically underpins all of Star Wars. However actual real fans wouldn't accept this Rey "Nobody" storyline because it flies against not only Luke Skywalker in the OT but also the Anakin "chosen one" plot of PT. It subconsciously screams at invested Star Wars fan that it's an affront to the franchise. I don't think JJ ever intended the "nobody" storyline which is why he had to retcon the retcon in TROS. However I think the current zeitgeist played a part in the unsatisfying Palpatine "outcome" (if you want to call flip flopping all the way back to the TFA's teaser that). Rey should clearly have been a Skywalker but showing a privileged lineage in a series of films which had pretty much been about privileged lineage up to that point was too much! Unless Disney went in and changed The Last Jedi. When they were in the elevator going to Snoke, he says he saw who her parents were when he was in her head. I think fans were so outraged about it that they only remembered the part when he straight up tells her that her parents were nobodies.
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