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Post by cupcakes on Apr 27, 2017 15:20:03 GMT
tpfkar What else is left in the face of pure babble, biblical or otherwise? Does a banana have a brain and organs too? Yet it shares roughly the same % of DNA to us as a Fruit Fly. The evidence discredits itself.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 27, 2017 15:35:46 GMT
Here's why the trinity concept is biblical.
As always alternate views can quickly be found online, from Christians. A detailed discussion can be found here for instance:
christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/24621/what-is-the-scriptural-basis-against-the-trinity
As an atheist, I don't follow the Judean People's Front more than I do the People's Front of Judea. But the concept does seem to introduce a hideously complicated and abstract doctrine, especially where nowhere in the Bible is mentioned that 3 = 1, where (usually) Jesus himself favoured clarity over obfuscation, and when it all seems based on interpretation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 16:46:23 GMT
especially where nowhere in the Bible is mentioned that 3 = 1,
Matthew 28:19 certainly alludes to it.
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Post by captainbryce on Apr 27, 2017 17:05:02 GMT
I think most here are aware of how trinity is usually described by its proponents. But it doesn't mean that explanation has ever made sense. The idea that many persons could make up one being is illogical. Moreover, the idea that they could be co-equal is even more ridiculous given the limitations the Bible itself sets on Jesus's powers. He has so many attributes that disqualify him from being God under the Bible's own rules that he could not possibly be a member of this so-called trinity, even if a trinity did make sense. The problem here is, you are equating God with His Creation. What is illogical & even impossible for humans is neither illogical nor impossible with God. God is Above & Beyond all human comprehension, & the doctrine of the Trinity shows this. I'm doing no such thing. I am merely evaluating the claim from the standpoint of logic. "Being" and "person" are synonymous terms, as being is defined as the essence of a person. Further, if God is above and beyond all human comprehension (a convenient cop out whenever someone tries and fails to accurately explain him), then there is no point in creating doctrines such as trinity in the first place, for it is a hopeless attempt at explaining him. So that reasoning cuts against your own argument. You are literally trying to explain trinity while simultaneously admitting that any such explanation goes beyond human comprehension. That makes no sense. And some might argue that there is no point in believing in a god at all (much less worshiping one) if you established beforehand that you can never hope to understand him.
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Post by captainbryce on Apr 27, 2017 17:15:49 GMT
All Trinitarian theology is "misunderstood" because the concept is inherently incomprehensible. No one understands it insomuch as their capacity to articulate it logically. I understand it just fine (as do many others). If that was true, then Trinitarian Christians have some kettle logic they need to work out if they ever hope to make a convincing case for it. I just got finished responding to a poster who claimed right before you that the Trinity demonstrates that's God is above and beyond all human understanding. Yet here you claiming that you understand it. Sounds like an internal problem with the doctrine. There is one divine essence that has three centers of consciousness (which we call "persons"). If God is love (and we're told that he IS love, and not just loving), then God has to exist as a "community" of "persons" who can love one another, for that's what love is. Well, you are certainly at liberty to rationalize it that way. But I don't think that rationale actually works as a convincing argument. Narcissistic people love themselves, and vain people love material possessions. There are different kinds of "love" and not all of them are good. Evil people love the treasures of this world at the expense of other people. So love need not necessarily involve a community at all. And even if it did, if you believe that God created everything and everything, then he already has a community to love. So why would he need to be different people? Why would you place a limitation on God (he has to exist as a community?), why exactly? Couldn't an all powerful being exist as anything he wanted? If God is an infinite being beyond what humans can comprehend, then we'd expect him to exist as something we can't completely wrap our head around. And yet you claim to understand it, which is an inconsistency in your own logic!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 17:24:33 GMT
I understand it just fine (as do many others). If that was true, then Trinitarian Christians have some kettle logic they need to work out if they ever hope to make a convincing case for it. I just got finished responding to a poster who claimed right before you that the Trinity demonstrates that's God is above and beyond all human understanding. Yet here you claiming that you understand it. Sounds like an internal problem with the doctrine. There is one divine essence that has three centers of consciousness (which we call "persons"). If God is love (and we're told that he IS love, and not just loving), then God has to exist as a "community" of "persons" who can love one another, for that's what love is. Well, you are certainly at liberty to rationalize it that way. But I don't think that rationale actually works as a convincing argument. Narcissistic people love themselves, and vain people love material possessions. There are different kinds of "love" and not all of them are good. Evil people love the treasures of this world at the expense of other people. So love need not necessarily involve a community at all. And even if it did, if you believe that God created everything and everything, then he already has a community to love. So why would he need to be different people? Why would you place a limitation on God (he has to exist as a community?), why exactly? Couldn't an all powerful being exist as anything he wanted? If God is an infinite being beyond what humans can comprehend, then we'd expect him to exist as something we can't completely wrap our head around. And yet you claim to understand it, which is an inconsistency in your own logic! You're a JW, right?
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Post by captainbryce on Apr 27, 2017 17:28:06 GMT
No. Why?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 17:34:55 GMT
Oh, I thought you were (for whatever reason). I remember someone being one from the old IMDb board. In any case, I understand the CONCEPT just fine. What I'm saying is that it's hard for some people to picture it in their heads because it's not like any other being that we have on this planet (which would be expected of a being like God). Maybe I should have chosen my words more carefully. This is an imperfect analogy, but one could think of it as one body with three heads (and three brains). I don't mean that LITERALLY, but it demonstrates the idea. One unified essence with three distinct centers of consciousness. A transcendent consciousness, an incarnate consciousness, and an indwelling consciousness. We're not going to agree on this, so you can say whatever, but it makes sense to me. And it's backed up by Scripture (which is why most Christians are Trinitarians).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 17:55:54 GMT
The problem here is, you are equating God with His Creation. What is illogical & even impossible for humans is neither illogical nor impossible with God. God is Above & Beyond all human comprehension, & the doctrine of the Trinity shows this. I'm doing no such thing. I am merely evaluating the claim from the standpoint of logic. "Being" and "person" are synonymous terms, as being is defined as the essence of a person. Further, if God is above and beyond all human comprehension (a convenient cop out whenever someone tries and fails to accurately explain him), then there is no point in creating doctrines such as trinity in the first place, for it is a hopeless attempt at explaining him. So that reasoning cuts against your own argument. You are literally trying to explain trinity while simultaneously admitting that any such explanation goes beyond human comprehension. That makes no sense. And some might argue that there is no point in believing in a god at all (much less worshiping one) if you established beforehand that you can never hope to understand him. Again, it's what the bible pretty much teaches. “Great is the LORD and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom.”Psalm 145:3 “And these are but the outer fringe of his works; how faint the whisper we hear of him! Who then can understand the thunder of his power?””Job 26:14 ““For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD.”Isaiah 55:8 “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his Romans 11:33-34 “Then Job replied to the LORD: “I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted. You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.’ My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.”Job 42:1-5 “Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.”Psalm 147:5
“Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. But whoever loves God is known by God.” 1 Corinthians 8:2-3
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Post by OldSamVimes on Apr 27, 2017 17:59:50 GMT
It's cute when you post like the Bible is an infallible historical record. It's cute when you get refuted and are left with nothing else but to resort to sarcasm. It's super cute that you think you refuted anything. You're a fish who thinks he needs an outside source to find the water. You don't need a priest to get closer to God, just like a fish does not need anyone to help him find the water. Spiritually, you're like a person with two healthy legs using crutches.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 18:07:15 GMT
It's cute when you get refuted and are left with nothing else but to resort to sarcasm. It's super cute that you think you refuted anything. You're a fish who thinks he needs an outside source to find the water. You don't need a priest to get closer to God, just like a fish does not need anyone to help him find the water. Spiritually, you're like a person with two healthy legs using crutches. Yes, you're still butt hurt and resentful over your Catholic past. We get it. Zzzzzz And I did refute you, whether you like it or not. Your nonsensical question demonstrated that you lack even a layman understanding of Trinitarian doctrine.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Apr 27, 2017 18:17:11 GMT
It's super cute that you think you refuted anything. You're a fish who thinks he needs an outside source to find the water. You don't need a priest to get closer to God, just like a fish does not need anyone to help him find the water. Spiritually, you're like a person with two healthy legs using crutches. Yes, you're still butt hurt and resentful over your Catholic past. We get it. Zzzzzz And I did refute you, whether you like it or not. Your nonsensical question demonstrated that you lack even a layman understanding of Trinitarian doctrine. You trying to tell me about God is like someone who knows 5 letters of the alphabet trying to teach someone how to read. You're regurgitating. You're a spiritual parrot who is able to repeat things he's been told, and evidently very proud of it. That's why people aren't taking your preaching seriously.
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Post by clusium on Apr 27, 2017 18:25:52 GMT
The problem here is, you are equating God with His Creation. What is illogical & even impossible for humans is neither illogical nor impossible with God. God is Above & Beyond all human comprehension, & the doctrine of the Trinity shows this. I'm doing no such thing. I am merely evaluating the claim from the standpoint of logic. "Being" and "person" are synonymous terms, as being is defined as the essence of a person. Further, if God is above and beyond all human comprehension (a convenient cop out whenever someone tries and fails to accurately explain him), then there is no point in creating doctrines such as trinity in the first place, for it is a hopeless attempt at explaining him. So that reasoning cuts against your own argument. You are literally trying to explain trinity while simultaneously admitting that any such explanation goes beyond human comprehension. That makes no sense. And some might argue that there is no point in believing in a god at all (much less worshiping one) if you established beforehand that you can never hope to understand him. Yes you are, Captainbryce, by your claim that you are " merely evaluating the claim from the standpoint of logic." The problem is human logic cannot comprehend God. "Being" and "person' are only synonymous when you think in terms of time & space, but, God Exists OUTSIDE of time & space. He Is not the Same as His Creation. No, it is not a convenient cop out whenever someone tries and fails to accurately explain God, by point out that He Is Above & Beyond our human comprehension. Because it is the truth. The fact is, we can't know or understand God, with our finite minds. Yes, there is a point in using the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, to let the Christian know that He Is Beyond all our understanding. The Trinity is a MYSTERY!! The Church Fathers, Doctors, et al, have made that clear, down through the centuries. If there are some that would argue that there is no point in believing in God at all or worshipping Him, simply because one cannot understand Him, then it speaks more of their own arrogance, rather than God's Awesome Greatness. Why? Because to simply realize that God IS Beyond our understanding, is very humbling for the Christian believer.
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Post by captainbryce on Apr 27, 2017 19:03:02 GMT
I'm doing no such thing. I am merely evaluating the claim from the standpoint of logic. "Being" and "person" are synonymous terms, as being is defined as the essence of a person. Further, if God is above and beyond all human comprehension (a convenient cop out whenever someone tries and fails to accurately explain him), then there is no point in creating doctrines such as trinity in the first place, for it is a hopeless attempt at explaining him. So that reasoning cuts against your own argument. You are literally trying to explain trinity while simultaneously admitting that any such explanation goes beyond human comprehension. That makes no sense. And some might argue that there is no point in believing in a god at all (much less worshiping one) if you established beforehand that you can never hope to understand him. Yes you are, Captainbryce, by your claim that you are " merely evaluating the claim from the standpoint of logic." The problem is human logic cannot comprehend God. "Being" and "person' are only synonymous when you think in terms of time & space, but, God Exists OUTSIDE of time & space. He Is not the Same as His Creation. No, it is not a convenient cop out whenever someone tries and fails to accurately explain God, by point out that He Is Above & Beyond our human comprehension. Because it is the truth. The fact is, we can't know or understand God, with our finite minds. Yes, there is a point in using the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, to let the Christian know that He Is Beyond all our understanding. The Trinity is a MYSTERY!! The Church Fathers, Doctors, et al, have made that clear, down through the centuries. If there are some that would argue that there is no point in believing in God at all or worshipping Him, simply because one cannot understand Him, then it speaks more of their own arrogance, rather than God's Awesome Greatness. Why? Because to simply realize that God IS Beyond our understanding, is very humbling for the Christian believer. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best. Trinity is a man-made construct invented to justify the unexplainable, contradictory, and inconsistent passages in scripture with respect to the divinity of Christ. Believing in something that cannot be explained logically inherently makes the believer an illogical person with an illogical belief system. If God does not conform to the rules of logic, then that makes him an illogical being, which means he isn't actually real. Logic is not constrained by, nor specific to "humanity". Consequently, there is no such thing as "human logic". 2 + 2 ALWAYS equals 4, whether it's a human counting or an African Gray Parrot. If one is to claim that 2 + 2 may in fact equal 5 when God counts, and then try to justify that by saying God's logic is different from ours, it indicates the person making the argument has a fundamental lack of understanding of what logic is and how it works. And that is essentially what you and indeed all trinitarians who make this argument are doing. You are saying that an illogical concept a) exists, and b) becomes logical when it applies to God. And that is a failed argument for the reasons I've just given.
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Post by clusium on Apr 27, 2017 19:24:28 GMT
Yes you are, Captainbryce, by your claim that you are " merely evaluating the claim from the standpoint of logic." The problem is human logic cannot comprehend God. "Being" and "person' are only synonymous when you think in terms of time & space, but, God Exists OUTSIDE of time & space. He Is not the Same as His Creation. No, it is not a convenient cop out whenever someone tries and fails to accurately explain God, by point out that He Is Above & Beyond our human comprehension. Because it is the truth. The fact is, we can't know or understand God, with our finite minds. Yes, there is a point in using the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, to let the Christian know that He Is Beyond all our understanding. The Trinity is a MYSTERY!! The Church Fathers, Doctors, et al, have made that clear, down through the centuries. If there are some that would argue that there is no point in believing in God at all or worshipping Him, simply because one cannot understand Him, then it speaks more of their own arrogance, rather than God's Awesome Greatness. Why? Because to simply realize that God IS Beyond our understanding, is very humbling for the Christian believer. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is the best. Trinity is a man-made construct invented to justify the unexplainable, contradictory, and inconsistent passages in scripture with respect to the divinity of Christ. Believing in something that cannot be explained logically inherently makes the believer an illogical person with an illogical belief system. If God does not conform to the rules of logic, then that makes him an illogical being, which means he isn't actually real. Logic is not constrained by, nor specific to "humanity". Consequently, there is no such thing as "human logic". 2 + 2 ALWAYS equals 4, whether it's a human counting or an African Gray Parrot. If one is to claim that 2 + 2 may in fact equal 5 when God counts, and then try to justify that by saying God's logic is different from ours, it indicates the person making the argument has a fundamental lack of understanding of what logic is and how it works. And that is essentially what you and indeed all trinitarians who make this argument are doing. You are saying that an illogical concept a) exists, and b) becomes logical when it applies to God. And that is a failed argument for the reasons I've just given. There are a lot of words that we use to explain things which we can never understand. The Grand Canyon is beyond all description, & yet, we always try to describe it to others, who until they see it for themselves, can never fathom how breathtaking it is. God Is Far More, than the Grand Canyon. Yes, 2 + 2 = 4. Likewise, 2 x 2 = 4 also. However, 2 x 1 = 2, & likewise, 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is thereby explained by 1 x 1 x 1, not 1 + 1 + 1.
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Post by cupcakes on Apr 27, 2017 19:32:01 GMT
tpfkar Reading fiction, watching movies, listening to new age babble or obvious triple-speak - it's easy to understand incoherent concepts, and of course to recognize their ludicrousness as anything more than enjoyment and/or (jumbled) bits of papering over of absurdities by invested individuals. I'd wager most Christians are Trinitarians because that's what they've been fed since childhood. And the reason for that is, historically, it's been violently enforced. Not dissimilarly to how "most" end up being in places like the oft-mentioned Saudi Arabia. if words could speak they'd mean even less
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 20:06:13 GMT
Something you're very well versed in.
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Post by cupcakes on Apr 27, 2017 20:23:08 GMT
tpfkar I do get to see a lot of it around this place! But for curiosity's sake, why don't you point out a line you deem as babble? I know you are
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Post by captainbryce on Apr 27, 2017 21:51:11 GMT
There are a lot of words that we use to explain things which we can never understand. The Grand Canyon is beyond all description, & yet, we always try to describe it to others, who until they see it for themselves, can never fathom how breathtaking it is. With all due respect...I don't think so! The Grand Canyon is NOT beyond all description. It can be (and has been) described quite adequately, and in much detail. In fact, every facet of it can be described -- length, width, depth, composition, location, history, etc. Fathoming how "breathtaking" it is has to do with how someone feels about it. It deals with ones emotional response to the experience, not the facts about the canyon itself. It may be more breathtaking to one person than it is to another, but it is ALWAYS 277 miles long! I cannot describe how you should feel about the Grand Canyon, but I can describe facts about its nature. It is most certainly not beyond all description. God Is Far More, than the Grand Canyon. Yes, 2 + 2 = 4. Likewise, 2 x 2 = 4 also. However, 2 x 1 = 2, & likewise, 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is thereby explained by 1 x 1 x 1, not 1 + 1 + 1. But one person, times one person, times one person, equals ONE PERSON, not three persons in one God!
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Post by captainbryce on Apr 27, 2017 21:57:11 GMT
Oh, I thought you were (for whatever reason). I remember someone being one from the old IMDb board. In any case, I understand the CONCEPT just fine. What I'm saying is that it's hard for some people to picture it in their heads because it's not like any other being that we have on this planet (which would be expected of a being like God). Maybe I should have chosen my words more carefully. This is an imperfect analogy, but one could think of it as one body with three heads (and three brains). I don't mean that LITERALLY, but it demonstrates the idea. One unified essence with three distinct centers of consciousness. A transcendent consciousness, an incarnate consciousness, and an indwelling consciousness. We're not going to agree on this, so you can say whatever, but it makes sense to me. And it's backed up by Scripture (which is why most Christians are Trinitarians). I think most Christians are trinitarians NOT because it makes sense, but because that's what the Catholic Church has taught ever since they invented the concept 300+ years after the death of Christ. The original Christians certainly never believed in Trinity, and it is not recorded anywhere in scripture. And in true contradictory fashion, scripture also invalidates trinity in perhaps even more ways than it validates it. People who have been taught to believe in it (again by the Church) blindly accept it, and then reinterpret scripture through that lens in order to make it fit in with trinity. But the plain reading of scripture would not reveal any trinity to someone who doesn't already have a trinitarian background. Appeal to tradition does not validate that tradition as truth.
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