|
Post by PreachCaleb on May 25, 2020 19:01:33 GMT
Lately, I've felt it a real shame that more Angel or Buffy characters didn't crossover.
I would've liked to have seen Cordy's reaction to Xander dating Anya. Or Giles and a more mature Wesley working together to save Buffy and Angel. Gunn and Riley could've been an interesting dynamic.
Or heck, I would've loved to have seen if they could've pulled off some big, epic multi-part crossover season finales. Something where the characters all have to come together, similar to the DC shows' big crossover events.
|
|
|
Post by stargazer1682 on May 26, 2020 21:53:41 GMT
I don't know, the AI gang seems so much more....mature in comparison to the Scoobies; I'm not sure how well they'd mesh. But I guess the drama lies in the inherent conflict. I mean, Angel Investigations didn't strictly always have their act together, per se, but compared to Buffy and the rest, they're practically a well oiled machine. Fred seems to be a more competent fighter by season 3 of Angel, than Xander was....ever... Yeah, they gave him the occasional weapon, especially towards the end, but Fred was making her own slice and dice contraptions three months out of Pylea.
I suppose I could be a (Marvel) Civil War-esque encounter; with Buffy and Angel filling the Cap and Tony roles. Buffy would probably be Tony, telling Angel and the others how is has to be; and Angel basically tells her to go to hell. I could see most of AI rallying behind Angel, but perhaps Wesley, on some technical point over whatever the disagreement is, sides with Buffy; while someone, like maybe Dawn, goes with the AI camp. Spike initially sides with Buffy, strictly for political reasons; because he in a contest between siding with Buffy or siding with Angel, he's going to side against Angel just on principal. And if it curries favor with Buffy, all the better. But ultimately he's faced with standing on the side he truly believes in, and as much as it pains him to admit he agrees with Angel, he see no other choice than to side with him against Buffy.
In the more general strokes of what you bring up, I agree, it's a shame that some of these characters didn't have the opportunity to cross paths more; like more of the Scoobies knowing Fred, beyond just Willow briefly meeting her while stopping to re-ensoul Angel. Getting to have any actual scenes between Angel and Dawn. And I agree on Giles, or any of the Scoobies, seeing how far Wesley had come since season 3. His conversation with Willow was good, but it does kind of leave you wanting more.
I'd love to see Buffy's reaction to finding out the will-they/won't-they-ness of Cordelia and Angel. God, I hate that pairing. I'm just finishing AtS season 3 and I hate how forced and heavy handed they made it. One of the few good things to come out of how things played out with Cordelia was killing Cangel right along with Cordelia.
Interesting you mention Riley, seeing how short-lived he ended up being as a member of the Scoobies; he hardly seems to qualify for a cross-over. But on the other hand, any time I try and think how AI gets out of the alley, I often envision a bunch of commandos, lead by Riley, swarming the area and driving the demons back. It would turn out that Angel didn't so much contact Riley, since he's the last person he'd reach out to, but he had tried to get in touch with Kate; and we'd find out that after we last saw her, she was recruited by whatever the Initiative turned into after the Sunnydale operation went sideways, given her background in law enforcement and prior knowledge about the supernatural. She serves under Riley and let him know what was going down and mount a support operation; much to Spike and Angel's mutual dissatisfaction. Also, Sam, Riley's wife from Buffy season 6, would turn out to have actually been a succubus; and was in fact the identified monster that slaughtered the village Sam claimed to be helping through the Peace Corps.
|
|
|
Post by dazz on May 29, 2020 23:55:17 GMT
I agree if they could have done some additional crossovers it would have been cool, if for nothing else other than to see the characters react to one another after growing whilst apart, like Xander seeing Cordy again and how both react to each other, does their dynamic change now they have matured or do they regress around each other? Not even talking big crossovers either, small fun ones could work also if their wasn't the network issue.
Stargazer I like your idea, though I would actually see it the other way, Buffy would be the Cap, Angel the Tony even with Spike I think he would want to side with Buffy but Angel would make the argument that suited Spike's thinking in the moment only for Spike to be the Black Widow who ultimately helps Buffy in a clinch moment, Buffy is more the no compromises self righteous type, Angel more the one willing to accept fault and be motivated by his own guilt, Buffy we saw blow off the warnings and advice of those "higher" than her, Angel was the one willing to be an agent of the TPTB, I would also see the likes of Anya siding with Angel whilst Gunn or Wesley I could see being swayed by Buffy and her confidence/status in a stand off with Angel, this would have been an awesome thing to see in the shows back in the day.
|
|
|
Post by stargazer1682 on May 30, 2020 3:57:57 GMT
I agree if they could have done some additional crossovers it would have been cool, if for nothing else other than to see the characters react to one another after growing whilst apart, like Xander seeing Cordy again and how both react to each other, does their dynamic change now they have matured or do they regress around each other? Not even talking big crossovers either, small fun ones could work also if their wasn't the network issue. Stargazer I like your idea, though I would actually see it the other way, Buffy would be the Cap, Angel the Tony even with Spike I think he would want to side with Buffy but Angel would make the argument that suited Spike's thinking in the moment only for Spike to be the Black Widow who ultimately helps Buffy in a clinch moment, Buffy is more the no compromises self righteous type, Angel more the one willing to accept fault and be motivated by his own guilt, Buffy we saw blow off the warnings and advice of those "higher" than her, Angel was the one willing to be an agent of the TPTB, I would also see the likes of Anya siding with Angel whilst Gunn or Wesley I could see being swayed by Buffy and her confidence/status in a stand off with Angel, this would have been an awesome thing to see in the shows back in the day. I agree about Buffy being the uncompromising type, but that's arguably why I'd think she'd be more like Tony; more for the black and white, these are the terms of how things have to be whether you like it or not, even if I have to punch you in the face to make you sign on. She's far more by the book, right and wrong than you might think of someone who quit the Watcher's Council. Whereas Angel is more willing to have a more nuanced view. Buffy fully believed if she killed someone, even unwittingly, and due to time going wonky because of the presence of demons, that she still bears responsibility and would have to turn herself in to the cops; which was a reprise of her response to Faith killing the deputy mayor. And that sort of response is right inline with Tony's guilt in Civil War Whereas Angel can fire his own crew, lock a couple of vampires in with a pack of lawyers and later decide he'd gone to far and work on doing better - but nothing so extreme as turning himself into the cops for anything he'd done. He has guilt for days, but it's relative and he still has shit to do. Faith is basically Bucky or vice versa. And to be clear, I didn't necessarily mean the motivation would be the same as Civil War, so much as the adversarial roles - Buffy laying the down the law, as she often does; it's her way or the highway. Angel, feeling she's taking too narrow of view of whatever the situation may be, and because Buffy is uncompromising, is forced to defy her and go rogue, which he often does. He might be a "champion" for higher powers, but that hasn't stopped him from going off on a his own tangent or even choosing to ignore their call; case in point, the whole thing with the lawyers. As for Spike, despite their working together in season 5 of Angel and the stronger bonds they developed during that time, or Spike being reluctant to go back to Buffy after coming back; if Spike, Angel and Buffy were all in a room together, and Angel and Buffy disagreed on some important strategy or approach to a problem, whatever and lines were drawn - I'd have a hard time believing that Spike wouldn't at least try backing Buffy over Angel, even if he felt Angel was more right. Between his feelings for Buffy and disdain for agreeing with Angel if he doesn't have to, he'd talk himself into siding with Buffy; if only for the self-justification that he might be able to convince her to see reason. Eventually, when it's clear that she's not going to budge, Spike would be forced to reluctantly side with Angel when the chips are down. As much as I loath Spuffy, I can't think of a scenario where he wouldn't be in Buffy's camp first, given half a chance, especially choosing between her and Angel; because even by the end of AtS season 5, he still has issues with Angel and he's also so utterly and thoroughly Buffy's bitch. If Buffy told them she wanted to have a threesome with them, Spike would think for a second, then start taking his clothes off; until Angel tells him, "Spike, no! We're not having a threesome!" Anya would go either way; she's a pretty fair weather ally. So I could see her aligning with Angel, if it was convenient, only to switch sides when it suited her; especially if Xander was in danger.
|
|
|
Post by dazz on May 30, 2020 4:40:18 GMT
I agree if they could have done some additional crossovers it would have been cool, if for nothing else other than to see the characters react to one another after growing whilst apart, like Xander seeing Cordy again and how both react to each other, does their dynamic change now they have matured or do they regress around each other? Not even talking big crossovers either, small fun ones could work also if their wasn't the network issue. Stargazer I like your idea, though I would actually see it the other way, Buffy would be the Cap, Angel the Tony even with Spike I think he would want to side with Buffy but Angel would make the argument that suited Spike's thinking in the moment only for Spike to be the Black Widow who ultimately helps Buffy in a clinch moment, Buffy is more the no compromises self righteous type, Angel more the one willing to accept fault and be motivated by his own guilt, Buffy we saw blow off the warnings and advice of those "higher" than her, Angel was the one willing to be an agent of the TPTB, I would also see the likes of Anya siding with Angel whilst Gunn or Wesley I could see being swayed by Buffy and her confidence/status in a stand off with Angel, this would have been an awesome thing to see in the shows back in the day. I agree about Buffy being the uncompromising type, but that's arguably why I'd think she'd be more like Tony; more for the black and white, these are the terms of how things have to be whether you like it or not, even if I have to punch you in the face to make you sign on. She's far more by the book, right and wrong than you might think of someone who quit the Watcher's Council. Whereas Angel is more willing to have a more nuanced view. Buffy fully believed if she killed someone, even unwittingly, and due to time going wonky because of the presence of demons, that she still bears responsibility and would have to turn herself in to the cops; which was a reprise of her response to Faith killing the deputy mayor. And that sort of response is right inline with Tony's guilt in Civil War Whereas Angel can fire his own crew, lock a couple of vampires in with a pack of lawyers and later decide he'd gone to far and work on doing better - but nothing so extreme as turning himself into the cops for anything he'd done. He has guilt for days, but it's relative and he still has shit to do. Faith is basically Bucky or vice versa. And to be clear, I didn't necessarily mean the motivation would be the same as Civil War, so much as the adversarial roles - Buffy laying the down the law, as she often does; it's her way or the highway. Angel, feeling she's taking too narrow of view of whatever the situation may be, and because Buffy is uncompromising, is forced to defy her and go rogue, which he often does. He might be a "champion" for higher powers, but that hasn't stopped him from going off on a his own tangent or even choosing to ignore their call; case in point, the whole thing with the lawyers. As for Spike, despite their working together in season 5 of Angel and the stronger bonds they developed during that time, or Spike being reluctant to go back to Buffy after coming back; if Spike, Angel and Buffy were all in a room together, and Angel and Buffy disagreed on some important strategy or approach to a problem, whatever and lines were drawn - I'd have a hard time believing that Spike wouldn't at least try backing Buffy over Angel, even if he felt Angel was more right. Between his feelings for Buffy and disdain for agreeing with Angel if he doesn't have to, he'd talk himself into siding with Buffy; if only for the self-justification that he might be able to convince her to see reason. Eventually, when it's clear that she's not going to budge, Spike would be forced to reluctantly side with Angel when the chips are down. As much as I loath Spuffy, I can't think of a scenario where he wouldn't be in Buffy's camp first, given half a chance, especially choosing between her and Angel; because even by the end of AtS season 5, he still has issues with Angel and he's also so utterly and thoroughly Buffy's bitch. If Buffy told them she wanted to have a threesome with them, Spike would think for a second, then start taking his clothes off; until Angel tells him, "Spike, no! We're not having a threesome!" Anya would go either way; she's a pretty fair weather ally. So I could see her aligning with Angel, if it was convenient, only to switch sides when it suited her; especially if Xander was in danger. I guess to me I see Buffy more the Cap type of where she says here is the line in the sand and she wont budge from it like Cap in CW, where as I see Angel like Tony more willing to compromise for the bigger picture as well as a need to absolve themselves of guilt, as you said Buffy was willing to turn herself into the cops when she thought she killed someone, she broke the law and she needed to be held accountable, that isn't what Tony was like, he didn't hang up his armour and denounce the Avengers, he looked for a way to lift his guilt and he did so by submitting to the will or Ross and the UN, looking for a way to in future remove himself and the team from personal responsibility, Cap was the one who was like no, our actions are our own and we live with the consequences of them.
And I dunno with Spike depending on the situation I can see him siding with Angel though reluctantly and maybe not intentionally, like he's saying he is on Buffy's side but he echoes Angel's sentiments to the point he just pisses her off and she tells him to piss off leaving him to be on Angel's team by default, where he would ultimately still be on Buffy's side and help her if their interest clashed, he wouldn't stop bickering with Angel though that much we know for sure.
|
|
|
Post by stargazer1682 on May 30, 2020 13:16:30 GMT
Cap was the one who was like no, our actions are our own and we live with the consequences of them. See, to me that sounds more like Angel. He lives with his guilt and tries to learn from it; and is big on second chances - and even sometimes third or fourth chances; because he still scenes up, makes questionable decisions he may reget later, but he doesn't let that stop him from trying to do better next time. He was willing to go to jail in order to give Faith the chance to turn her life around, whereas Buffy was only willing to accept Faith submit to a higher authority. There's no nuance in Buffy's view. Faith killed people and betrayed her, so she at best she had to go to jail. Anya was responsible for the deaths of the frat boys, so she set that Anya had to die, no matter what Xander said. There was no negotiating with Anya. When Buffy thought she herself had killed someone, the only way to assuage her guilt was by submitting to higher authority. She even felt Warren deserved to be dealt with through conventional means, even when some of his crimes were less than conventional or conducted by crossing into the supernatural world. And when the likes of Anya or even Willow crossed the line, she became that authority she expected them to submit to. For the Slayer who quit the Council and seldom listened to Giles, Buffy had very little flexibility when it came to what she perceived as right or wrong. Angel can sacrifice Drogan, personally killing him, and he lives with it because it was necessary in order to gain access to the Circle of the Black Thorn. His own son betrays him and his team and his idea of holding him responsible isn't by locking him up in a room, but turning him out onto the world, to learn for himself; while keeping tabs on him from a distance, hoping he will eventually come home.
|
|
|
Post by dazz on May 30, 2020 15:17:39 GMT
Cap was the one who was like no, our actions are our own and we live with the consequences of them. See, to me that sounds more like Angel. He lives with his guilt and tries to learn from it; and is big on second chances - and even sometimes third or fourth chances; because he still scenes up, makes questionable decisions he may reget later, but he doesn't let that stop him from trying to do better next time. He was willing to go to jail in order to give Faith the chance to turn her life around, whereas Buffy was only willing to accept Faith submit to a higher authority. There's no nuance in Buffy's view. Faith killed people and betrayed her, so she at best she had to go to jail. Anya was responsible for the deaths of the frat boys, so she set that Anya had to die, no matter what Xander said. There was no negotiating with Anya. When Buffy thought she herself had killed someone, the only way to assuage her guilt was by submitting to higher authority. She even felt Warren deserved to be dealt with through conventional means, even when some of his crimes were less than conventional or conducted by crossing into the supernatural world. And when the likes of Anya or even Willow crossed the line, she became that authority she expected them to submit to. For the Slayer who quit the Council and seldom listened to Giles, Buffy had very little flexibility when it came to what she perceived as right or wrong. Angel can sacrifice Drogan, personally killing him, and he lives with it because it was necessary in order to gain access to the Circle of the Black Thorn. His own son betrays him and his team and his idea of holding him responsible isn't by locking him up in a room, but turning him out onto the world, to learn for himself; while keeping tabs on him from a distance, hoping he will eventually come home. Depends on the perspective I guess, to me Cap & Buffy feel like they see things as their choices must be their choices, no one else can tell them what is and isn't right, but they also hold true to that, they wont bend on their beliefs but break under them, Angel like Tony however has a more fluid mentality his limits and rules change from situation to situation, what is unfathomable under some circumstances is the default course of action under others, such as Angel's kind of fluctuating morality and Tony's push and pull in regards to government oversight.
Also how they view things feels similar Buffy like Cap is very black and white, right and wrong, where as Angel and Tony see things in shades of grey, and why I see in a CW type of scenario it being Angel who would be the one trying to persuade Buffy into seeing his point of view where as Buffy would be the one putting her foot down and saying no this is wrong we know what we are doing and we are the only ones who should be making these choices no one else, but they do also have some spill over just for me Buffy is more the Cap type and Angel the Tony type but I get your points also.
|
|
|
Post by stargazer1682 on May 30, 2020 16:52:20 GMT
See, to me that sounds more like Angel. He lives with his guilt and tries to learn from it; and is big on second chances - and even sometimes third or fourth chances; because he still scenes up, makes questionable decisions he may reget later, but he doesn't let that stop him from trying to do better next time. He was willing to go to jail in order to give Faith the chance to turn her life around, whereas Buffy was only willing to accept Faith submit to a higher authority. There's no nuance in Buffy's view. Faith killed people and betrayed her, so she at best she had to go to jail. Anya was responsible for the deaths of the frat boys, so she set that Anya had to die, no matter what Xander said. There was no negotiating with Anya. When Buffy thought she herself had killed someone, the only way to assuage her guilt was by submitting to higher authority. She even felt Warren deserved to be dealt with through conventional means, even when some of his crimes were less than conventional or conducted by crossing into the supernatural world. And when the likes of Anya or even Willow crossed the line, she became that authority she expected them to submit to. For the Slayer who quit the Council and seldom listened to Giles, Buffy had very little flexibility when it came to what she perceived as right or wrong. Angel can sacrifice Drogan, personally killing him, and he lives with it because it was necessary in order to gain access to the Circle of the Black Thorn. His own son betrays him and his team and his idea of holding him responsible isn't by locking him up in a room, but turning him out onto the world, to learn for himself; while keeping tabs on him from a distance, hoping he will eventually come home. Depends on the perspective I guess, to me Cap & Buffy feel like they see things as their choices must be their choices, no one else can tell them what is and isn't right, but they also hold true to that, they wont bend on their beliefs but break under them, Angel like Tony however has a more fluid mentality his limits and rules change from situation to situation, what is unfathomable under some circumstances is the default course of action under others, such as Angel's kind of fluctuating morality and Tony's push and pull in regards to government oversight.
Also how they view things feels similar Buffy like Cap is very black and white, right and wrong, where as Angel and Tony see things in shades of grey, and why I see in a CW type of scenario it being Angel who would be the one trying to persuade Buffy into seeing his point of view where as Buffy would be the one putting her foot down and saying no this is wrong we know what we are doing and we are the only ones who should be making these choices no one else, but they do also have some spill over just for me Buffy is more the Cap type and Angel the Tony type but I get your points also.
Oddly enough, I've always thought the positions Cap and Tony took during Civil War to be sort of the opposite of which positions I'd expect them to take; especially when watching the movie. Like, I get that Cap's the guy who leaked documents to bring down Hydra, at the expense of also bringing down Shield; and of course he'd protect Bucky with his life, but my perception of Captain American - which admittedly isn't a very detailed one - is that he's a fucking Boy Scout and a stickler for the rules and especially the rule of law. Whereas Tony's the personification of a guy who makes his own rules; he uses his brains and billions to build his own suit to give him the powers that everybody else gets through other circumstances, and he's the one who decides how he uses them. He's an industrialist, a capitalist who wouldn't want to be regulated by the government; that he should be trusted to self-regulate. And meanwhile Cap, as a government agent, would be the proverbial company man, who has a sworn loyalty to the United States government, it's lawmakers and president, no matter who they might be; and would do his best to uphold any laws that they might pass, unless they truly pushed the boundaries of his personal morality. Which, everything on balance, I'm not convinced the Accords would meet that standard. And I'm sure that that assessment is totally off base, because it's entirely superficial; and there's probably loads of examples within their comic book history that would undermine those impressions. But on the surface, and arguably based on how things played out in the movies; Cap would be the one supporting the establishment, order and the rule of law, while Tony's the vigilante who's allegiance first and foremost to himself and the establishment can go screw themselves.
|
|
|
Post by dazz on May 30, 2020 17:13:33 GMT
Depends on the perspective I guess, to me Cap & Buffy feel like they see things as their choices must be their choices, no one else can tell them what is and isn't right, but they also hold true to that, they wont bend on their beliefs but break under them, Angel like Tony however has a more fluid mentality his limits and rules change from situation to situation, what is unfathomable under some circumstances is the default course of action under others, such as Angel's kind of fluctuating morality and Tony's push and pull in regards to government oversight.
Also how they view things feels similar Buffy like Cap is very black and white, right and wrong, where as Angel and Tony see things in shades of grey, and why I see in a CW type of scenario it being Angel who would be the one trying to persuade Buffy into seeing his point of view where as Buffy would be the one putting her foot down and saying no this is wrong we know what we are doing and we are the only ones who should be making these choices no one else, but they do also have some spill over just for me Buffy is more the Cap type and Angel the Tony type but I get your points also.
Oddly enough, I've always thought the positions Cap and Tony took during Civil War to be sort of the opposite of which positions I'd expect them to take; especially when watching the movie. Like, I get that Cap's the guy who leaked documents to bring down Hydra, at the expense of also bringing down Shield; and of course he'd protect Bucky with his life, but my perception of Captain American - which admittedly isn't a very detailed one - is that he's a fucking Boy Scout and a stickler for the rules and especially the rule of law. Whereas Tony's the personification of a guy who makes his own rules; he uses his brains and billions to build his own suit to give him the powers that everybody else gets through other circumstances, and he's the one who decides how he uses them. He's an industrialist, a capitalist who wouldn't want to be regulated by the government; that he should be trusted to self-regulate. And meanwhile Cap, as a government agent, would be the proverbial company man, who has a sworn loyalty to the United States government, it's lawmakers and president, no matter who they might be; and would do his best to uphold any laws that they might pass, unless they truly pushed the boundaries of his personal morality. Which, everything on balance, I'm not convinced the Accords would meet that standard. And I'm sure that that assessment is totally off base, because it's entirely superficial; and there's probably loads of examples within their comic book history that would undermine those impressions. But on the surface, and arguably based on how things played out in the movies; Cap would be the one supporting the establishment, order and the rule of law, while Tony's the vigilante who's allegiance first and foremost to himself and the establishment can go screw themselves. I thought their sides made sense, its the opposite of where they started but that's because of their journeys, Hydra's reveal shook Cap to his core, he did believe in the system and the system was revealed to be corrupt, an agency or a government didn't stop Hydra people did, people willing to stand up against a greater force and do the right thing, even though Hydra manipulated things even people like Fury and other good meaning officials went along with the creation of the Helicarriers with the means of wiping out millions in seconds, Tony on the other hand saw the folly in his own self assuredness and do whatever he wants attitude, the guilt trip the mother laid on him in CW just brought it all home to him, his choices are what snowballed and led to that boys death, sure they saved the world but for Tony they saved it from his own mistakes.
And yeah Cap will do anything for Bucky so that helps also, and I think Tony is looking for a way for him to stay in the game but not as much as he was, like he says to Cap he thought the Accords would split the difference between what he wanted and what Pepper wanted for him, so for me it worked with their personal journeys through the films and the motivations within the movie for the sides they took made sense also, especially when you think with Cap he's shown in the movie how the law wasn't willing to give Bucky a fair trial, they went in with the intent to kill based on the assumption of guilt not the proof of it furthering his the only ones we can trust with our power is ourselves mentality.
|
|
flyerzzrul
Sophomore
@flyerzzrul
Posts: 856
Likes: 534
|
Post by flyerzzrul on May 31, 2020 22:09:01 GMT
I always wanted to see Buffy's reaction to Darla being back and Angel not only trying to help her but also banging her
|
|