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Post by goz on Jun 19, 2020 6:17:50 GMT
I view it as sex being biological, or how you appear to be based on female/male characteristics as how you said. But gender being based on how you feel and in your mind, where you can change your gender or be more than one gender or not have one at all whenever you feel you should be. I think this allows people to understand who they are more and be able to express that instead of only feeling only limited to the labels male or female. I don’t see it as a mental disorder or anything negative. One can only feel what they know within their own physical body, even if they believe the mind is telling them different. Expression of what they may connect with on an external level is superficial and if one did became the opposite gender to what they claim they feel, they may not actually like being in that opposite gender body. This would come down to what that specific brain is connecting with and its wiring so to speak.
I agree that male\female behavioral attributes can be societal construct only, but the brain of biological male is signalling male physicality only. It won't know anything other but male body operation, even if the being feels that they should be female.
Word salad. People who are binary 'feel' differently'. Who is to say that are wrong/bad/mentally ill?
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 19, 2020 23:00:46 GMT
There are 2 biological sexes. Male, female and then there are intersex people.
Gender is a social construct as far as I'm aware. Though I still don't see how someone could be anything else than what is listed above.
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 19, 2020 23:03:12 GMT
How can the definition of a word be a fact? Words change their meanings throughout history. Different cultures use similar terms to mean slightly different things.
This is true. Words have usages, not inherent meaning. The dictionary describes usage and changes when the usage change. Words evolve and change and have multiple meanings. Hence the multiple definitions of the same word in dictionaries. I am an atheist and the definition has changed many times throughout history. It was once what the Romans called Christians, because Christians didn't believe in the Roman Gods.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 20, 2020 11:21:59 GMT
There are 3 biological sexes. Male, female and a combination of both (yes, this is just fact). Gender is a social construct as far as I'm aware. Though I still don't see how someone could be anything else than what is listed above. Well I don't think anyone argues they can. The whole "there are 58 genders" thing is basically an attempt to split those who identify as a combination into discrete categories.
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Post by Zos on Jun 20, 2020 14:57:18 GMT
2 genders and 0 Gods. Other genders and all Gods are man made inventions.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Jun 22, 2020 14:03:19 GMT
There are 3 biological sexes. Male, female and a combination of both (yes, this is just fact). Gender is a social construct as far as I'm aware. Though I still don't see how someone could be anything else than what is listed above. That doesn't qualify as a third gender. A combination of both genders means you're actually both, but will likely identify with the one whose parts you match the most. May don't even realise untill adolescence, or later, that they are hermaphrodites. However, as this is occurs as a mistake of nature, and is not a normal feature in our species, it is not a gender on its own. I can think of no reason to label it as such, other than to patronise hermaphrodites, who naturally want to feel like they're normal like "everybody else".
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Post by moviemouth on Jun 22, 2020 14:12:57 GMT
There are 3 biological sexes. Male, female and a combination of both (yes, this is just fact). Gender is a social construct as far as I'm aware. Though I still don't see how someone could be anything else than what is listed above. That doesn't qualify as a third gender. A combination of both genders means you're actually both, but will likely identify with the one whose parts you match the most. May don't even realise untill adolescence, or later, that they are hermaphrodites. However, as this is occurs as a mistake of nature, and is not a normal feature in our species, it is not a gender on its own. I can think of no reason to label it as such, other than to patronise hermaphrodites, who naturally want to feel like they're normal like "everybody else". It obviously is a combination of existing sexes, but it is something that isn't one of the other. I listed it to cover all bases. I should have said there are 2 sexes and intersex.
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Post by general313 on Jun 22, 2020 18:05:08 GMT
I don't know where you got the above from, but it is demonstrably false. Gender comes from Latin via French, and was originally used to describe persons, animals or objects with similar characteristics. The grammatical meaning of "gender" borrows from the biological, not the other way around. "Generation" comes from the same Latin word, ie. "genus". And we know that the word "gender" has been used in the sense of biological gender since at least the 15th century. As a verb, synonymous with "beget" or "give birth to", "gender" has been used since at least a century prior. www.etymonline.com/search?q=genderAlso, in German the word for gender is "Geschlecht", the original meaning of which has to do with genealogy, ancestry and familial ties. You're going back much farther than I was, but your link doesn't support the claim that the grammatical meaning came from the biological usage for sex. What it says is: "kind, sort, class, a class or kind of persons or things sharing certain traits," from Old French gendre, genre "kind, species..." So it may have had a biological usage, but it wasn't about sex. According to that link, the earliest usage for sex in English was from the early 15th century, but it says nothing about how common it was, and the very next sentence suggests that usage WASN'T common as it says precisely what I said above: "As sex (n.) took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be the usual English word for "sex of a human being," in which use it was at first regarded as colloquial or humorous." Most of my information came from Wikipedia: "The term gender had been associated with grammar for most of history and only started to move towards it being a malleable cultural construct in the 1950s and 1960s." and "Before (John Money's) work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories. For example, in a bibliography of 12,000 references on marriage and family from 1900–1964, the term gender does not even emerge once. Analysis of more than 30 million academic article titles from 1945–2001 showed that the uses of the term "gender", were much rarer than uses of "sex", (and) was often used as a grammatical category early in this period." The quote I posted from lexicographer Henry Fowler was from 1926, and it very much suggests that, before then at least, the usage of "gender" to mean "sex" was so uncommon to the point of being considered either incorrect or a joke. I'll also say that, anecdotally, I've read a ton of classic English literature and I don't ever remember coming across the word gender to refer to biological sex, though the word sex was quite common. I read a long time ago that the Victorians were uncomfortable with the word "belly" and used the euphemism "stomach" in its place, because a large belly was associated with the embarrassing subject of pregnancy. I wonder if more recently "gender" was used as substitution for "sex", which in the mid 20th century was considered a borderline vulgar word.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Jun 24, 2020 13:01:01 GMT
Those with chromosome disorders are usually not the ones who feel conflicted with regards to gender identity. The vast majority of trans people have perfectly normal male or female bodies. One can feel any way one likes. I actually do not see how that changes one's gender, ethnicity or anything else. When they have made the transition physically, then I do not have a problem viewing them as members of their new gender. However, the "male trapped in a female's body" or the other way around is a matter of their subjective opinion - not one of biological fact. Hormones, more than anything, dictates what it feels like to be a man or a woman. You are usually one of the most sane posters on this Board, however in this matter I find you 'unempathetic' to others' and their rights to think and feel differently to you or me. I realise my views on this issue may seem hard, but I am not unempathetic - I am just not as sympathetic as many on the left are. Life is hard, much harder for some than it is for others, and that isn't fair. I think it is only right for us to try and equalise what nature has made unequal, and god knows all these people want is to feel normal. All I've ever wanted was to feel normal, as well. But what I do not want is for people to be led by the hand in life, to be told that the anomalies they were born with are somehow normal. It is perfectly normal to have anomalies, but each given anomaly is itself an abnormality. Whether it is a cleft palate, Down's syndrome, extra nipples, hairs growing where they shouldn't, asymmetrical features... We always tend to focus on the ways we fall short of our ideals. Which is mostly a good thing, because this is what makes us strive. But it also means we do not see ourselves as others do. We all seek to fit in, to meet expectations others have on account of who we are. On account of our professions, our families, our ethnicities, our very genders. Some people do indeed fall short, and are simply not able to meet society's expectations. It is normal to think one falls short. Most men and women feel insecure to some extent, at some point in their lives, as to whether they tick all the boxes of what makes a MAN or a WOMAN. These fears are usually groundless. But some have such a hard time living up to expectations that they genuinely feel left behind, and so take a step back. Maybe some other ideals are easier to work towards. "Maybe the ideals I have striven towards all these years shouldn't have been my ideals to begin with". I don't know how to fix that. But I do not believe that coddling to these feelings are the way to go, not in the long run. For one thing, you can't make people think of you as X, if you don't look like X. At best you can make them pretend, but is that what we want? Personally, when I feel like I have to walk on egg-shells around a person, when I have to be dishonest in my address to them, I start viewing them as immature. It is not my choice to do so, it is the inescapable consequence of humouring people - it is patronising, and one does not patronize one's peers. So again, I have no answers myself, I only know I do not believe the answer lies in redefining basic concepts to avoid stepping on toes. You're a man who wants to be a woman, good for you. But if you haven't made the transition, I do not see why either one of us should pretend you're not a man. You're not a different gender because you feel like you're a different gender. Like I said, a man who wants to be a woman, what does he know about what it feels like to be a woman? Does he feel what a woman feels? He can't know. And if he doesn't have the same hormonal balances and brain development as a woman, it seems rather unlikely. He may not feel like a man, but if he has the hormonal balance of a man, then the cause is not physiological.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 24, 2020 16:26:55 GMT
It is perfectly normal to have anomalies, but each given anomaly is itself an abnormality. Whether it is a cleft palate Presumably though you're not against the usual practice of children born with cleft palates having these corrected by surgery? Why is this abnormality OK to correct but gender dysphoria is not? There are though transpeople who "pass". If you're prepared to treat then as X because they look like X then your issue isn't with transgenderism per se. It seems to be your issue is that you can't accept people as male/female unless they look a certain way. If in theory surgery and hormone treatment could be improved that everyone who transitions "passes" then your objection falls away. If you called an overweight person "fat" to their face and they got upset, would you consider them immature? If you had to avoid referring to their weight, would you feel like you're walking on eggshells? I don't know about you but usually when interacting with people, their gender isn't really a factor on how I treat them anyway.
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Post by Karl Aksel on Jun 24, 2020 16:48:09 GMT
It is perfectly normal to have anomalies, but each given anomaly is itself an abnormality. Whether it is a cleft palate Presumably though you're not against the usual practice of children born with cleft palates having these corrected by surgery? Why is this abnormality OK to correct but gender dysphoria is not? What makes you say that? You're ignoring something I wrote in the same post - which you omitted: "You're a man who wants to be a woman, good for you. But if you haven't made the transition, I do not see why either one of us should pretend you're not a man." So for your example to be analogous, the person with the cleft palate would have to be saying, "there's nothing wrong with my palate". Then you misunderstand me. My problem is with trans people who take umbrage at being treated like the "wrong" gender. If you look like a boy, you're going to be treated like a boy. If you look like a girl, you're going to be treated like a girl. That's not anybody else's fault. You can't expect people to think of you as X if you do not pass for X, and you don't get to decide if you do. Is the fat person pretending to be slim? Does he expect me to pretend with him? Mind you, usually it's thin people pretending that they're fat - which can be annoying to actually fat people. Men act a certain way with men, and a certain way with women. Women act a certain way with women, and a certain way with men. That's just part of society's fabric.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 24, 2020 17:20:51 GMT
You're a man who wants to be a woman, good for you. But if you haven't made the transition, I do not see why either one of us should pretend you're not a man. So you're prepared to accept people who have made the transition as their stated gender but not those who have not?
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Post by Karl Aksel on Jun 24, 2020 17:50:02 GMT
You're a man who wants to be a woman, good for you. But if you haven't made the transition, I do not see why either one of us should pretend you're not a man. So you're prepared to accept people who have made the transition as their stated gender but not those who have not? Yes. Your fat man example is actually a pretty good one: a fat person who is unhappy about being fat, who wants to be slim, who aspires to be slim, and who starts working out and eating right in order to become slim... he's not slim yet, no matter how much he wants to be. But when he has lost that excess weight, of course he is slim. But until that time he is simply a man with a dream.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 24, 2020 18:44:17 GMT
So you're prepared to accept people who have made the transition as their stated gender but not those who have not? Yes. Your fat man example is actually a pretty good one: a fat person who is unhappy about being fat, who wants to be slim, who aspires to be slim, and who starts working out and eating right in order to become slim... he's not slim yet, no matter how much he wants to be. But when he has lost that excess weight, of course he is slim. But until that time he is simply a man with a dream. OK, but how does a person know they should transition without feeling a certain way before they transition? And how does a medical professional help them with transitioning without first establishing this is right for them? In other words, doesn't transgenderism need to exist on some level prior to transition? Also, there are people who transition but never "pass" and there are people who never undergo transition (if by transition you mean surgery and hormone treatment) who "pass" fine. Where does that leave your previous comment about treating people on how they look?
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Post by theauxphou on Jul 1, 2020 9:16:33 GMT
It’s true. But then again, let people believe what they want, even if it’s not truth. We allow it with religious people praying to fairies, so I don’t think this is too different.
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