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Post by Tristan's Journal on May 4, 2017 16:40:27 GMT
an oft overlooked aspect of good drama is that any protagonist is only as good as their antagonist. Translated to the world of tightly clad DC and MCU beefcakes that that means: super-villains. And as sceptical layman, I must say only DC has really iconic household name villains. In fact it seems that some of the villains are even more famous than their rivals: Batman may be the biggest superhero next to Supes, but Joker seems to exceed him on many fronts; hell even his toydoll Harley Quinn is absurdly popular compared to Batgirl or Robin. Let's not discuss all the other Bats villains like Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler, 2-Face - all iconic household names. Same with Supes: Lex Luther is an icon of evil himself. My grandmother knows these names and she never read a comic book! MCU? Who? I knew Loki before, but from Norse mythology, music and literature, not the films. Most in the general public could not name one MCU villain without googling. This is a chronic, inherent deficit that will in the long will blast their heroes back into the obscurity of the nerdosphere, regardless of how many crap DC movies are produced.
Ironically, it's only fair that the same can be said about the second-tier DC heroes: no good household name villains! Thus, nobody in the general public really gives a rat's ass about Flash, Wonderwoman, Aquaman . Their DCU popularity may peak right now because of novelty paired with Bats/Supes fatigue, but in the LONG RUN they will sink back to semi-oblivion again, as will their MCU counterparts.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 17:20:51 GMT
No, that's just an excuse to get lazy with writing the hero. Even Shakespeare put WAY more focus on exploring what his heroes tick than he ever gave to his villains. Iago's whole motive for ruining everyone's life in Othello was being angry over being passed over for a promotion, and... that's it. Nothing deep. Also, the DCEU's Joker is the worst Joker ever, as is their Zod and Lex Luthor. Crawl back under your bridge, troll.
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Post by ThatGuy on May 4, 2017 18:21:13 GMT
an oft overlooked aspect of good drama is that any protagonist is only as good as their antagonist. Translated to the world of tightly clad DC and MCU beefcakes that that means: super-villains. And as sceptical layman, I must say only DC has really iconic household name villains. In fact it seems that some of the villains are even more famous than their rivals: Batman may be the biggest superhero next to Supes, but Joker seems to exceed him on many fronts; hell even his toydoll Harley Quinn is absurdly popular compared to Batgirl or Robin. Let's not discuss all the other Bats villains like Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler, 2-Face - all iconic household names. Same with Supes: Lex Luther is an icon of evil himself. My grandmother knows these names and she never read a comic book! MCU? Who? I knew Loki before, but from Norse mythology, music and literature, not the films. Most in the general public could not name one MCU villain without googling. This is a chronic, inherent deficit that will in the long will blast their heroes back into the obscurity of the nerdosphere, regardless of how many crap DC movies are produced.
Ironically, it's only fair that the same can be said about the second-tier DC heroes: no good household name villains! Thus, nobody in the general public really gives a rat's ass about Flash, Wonderwoman, Aquaman . Their DCU popularity may peak right now because of novelty paired with Bats/Supes fatigue, but in the LONG RUN they will sink back to semi-oblivion again, as will their MCU counterparts. Well, at the moment, DC really only has Lex Luthor, Zod and Joker. And people are getting tired of 2/3 of them (and Leto's Joker isn't helping the 3rd). Harley Quinn is basically a girl playing Joker. Most of Batman's villains have been hammered into people in other media. We keep getting the same DC villains over and over, though. Of course people will know them. It's either that or they are played by a huge named actor. Who was the villain of Jonah Hex? Who were the 2 villains of Green Lantern? Who were the 3 (5?) antagonists of Suicide Squad (they all were villains). You are trying to compare about 7 lines of movies with different villains in them with 2 lines of movies that mostly had the same villains across 3 reboots each. And those reboots are Batman and Superman and DC keeps going back to them. If Marvel only made Captain America and Iron Man movies and tv shows for 40 years, the same thing would be said about them as Batman and Superman. Hell, look at X-men. Magneto, Mystique and Stryker. Who was the secondary villain of X-men: Apocalypse without looking him up?
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zoilus
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Post by zoilus on May 4, 2017 19:16:54 GMT
They already made Lex and The Joker and Zod stupid as fuck though. What makes you think they'll do any better with Deathstroke or Darkseid or Brainiac or Black Manta or Steppenwolf or...who does Cyborg fight?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 19:48:50 GMT
They already made Lex and The Joker and Zod stupid as fuck though. What makes you think they'll do any better with Deathstroke or Darkseid or Brainiac or Black Manta or Steppenwolf or...who does Cyborg fight? He doesn't. Tristan is just a troll who thinks the superhero genre is beneath him. He ignorantly uses a Thundercats avatar thinking that series was "without beefcakes in tights".
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Post by ThatGuy on May 4, 2017 21:05:51 GMT
They already made Lex and The Joker and Zod stupid as fuck though. What makes you think they'll do any better with Deathstroke or Darkseid or Brainiac or Black Manta or Steppenwolf or...who does Cyborg fight? Cybrog fights Deathstroke or any other Titan villain.
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Post by summers8 on May 4, 2017 21:17:35 GMT
an oft overlooked aspect of good drama is that any protagonist is only as good as their antagonist. Translated to the world of tightly clad DC and MCU beefcakes that that means: super-villains. And as sceptical layman, I must say only DC has really iconic household name villains. In fact it seems that some of the villains are even more famous than their rivals: Batman may be the biggest superhero next to Supes, but Joker seems to exceed him on many fronts; hell even his toydoll Harley Quinn is absurdly popular compared to Batgirl or Robin. Let's not discuss all the other Bats villains like Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler, 2-Face - all iconic household names. Same with Supes: Lex Luther is an icon of evil himself. My grandmother knows these names and she never read a comic book! MCU? Who? I knew Loki before, but from Norse mythology, music and literature, not the films. Most in the general public could not name one MCU villain without googling. This is a chronic, inherent deficit that will in the long will blast their heroes back into the obscurity of the nerdosphere, regardless of how many crap DC movies are produced.
Ironically, it's only fair that the same can be said about the second-tier DC heroes: no good household name villains! Thus, nobody in the general public really gives a rat's ass about Flash, Wonderwoman, Aquaman . Their DCU popularity may peak right now because of novelty paired with Bats/Supes fatigue, but in the LONG RUN they will sink back to semi-oblivion again, as will their MCU counterparts.
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zoilus
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Post by zoilus on May 4, 2017 21:19:01 GMT
Cybrog fights Deathstroke or any other Titan villain. Well Deathstroke is already Slade'd to be in The Batman, who could/should be the villain in Cyborg's solo film?
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Post by summers8 on May 4, 2017 21:22:06 GMT
If you add the villains of Spiderman, X-Men and The Fantastic 4, Marvel villains are as good as the DC villains. the problem is Marvel does not have access to all their best villains but its not like they will have needed them in the first place since marvel (mcu) are not interested in having any good villains because it will affect the light hearted tone of their movies.
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Post by ThatGuy on May 4, 2017 21:59:20 GMT
If you add the villains of Spiderman, X-Men and The Fantastic 4, Marvel villains are as good as the DC villains. the problem is Marvel does not have access to all their best villains but its not like they will have needed them in the first place since marvel (mcu) are not interested in having any good villains because it will affect the light hearted tone of their movies. Or it's hero 1st.
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Post by DC-Fan on May 4, 2017 22:58:35 GMT
an oft overlooked aspect of good drama is that any protagonist is only as good as their antagonist. Translated to the world of tightly clad DC and MCU beefcakes that that means: super-villains. And as sceptical layman, I must say only DC has really iconic household name villains. In fact it seems that some of the villains are even more famous than their rivals: Batman may be the biggest superhero next to Supes, but Joker seems to exceed him on many fronts; hell even his toydoll Harley Quinn is absurdly popular compared to Batgirl or Robin. Let's not discuss all the other Bats villains like Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler, 2-Face - all iconic household names. Same with Supes: Lex Luther is an icon of evil himself. My grandmother knows these names and she never read a comic book! MCU? Who? I knew Loki before, but from Norse mythology, music and literature, not the films. Most in the general public could not name one MCU villain without googling. This is a chronic, inherent deficit that will in the long will blast their heroes back into the obscurity of the nerdosphere, regardless of how many crap DC movies are produced.
Ironically, it's only fair that the same can be said about the second-tier DC heroes: no good household name villains! Thus, nobody in the general public really gives a rat's ass about Flash, Wonderwoman, Aquaman . Their DCU popularity may peak right now because of novelty paired with Bats/Supes fatigue, but in the LONG RUN they will sink back to semi-oblivion again, as will their MCU counterparts. Actually, Flash does have a good Rogues gallery of villains. Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, and the Flash are the superheroes with the best villains. And the X-Men and Fantastic Four as a team also have good villains. But MCU doesn't have any good villains at all.
And I agree 100%, a protagonist isn't good (or great) unless he has a good (or great) and formidable villain to challenge him/her and push him/her to the limit. Without Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker would've just been a farmboy and not a Jedi Knight who destroyed the Death Star and helped defeat the Empire.
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chatterer
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Post by chatterer on May 5, 2017 2:48:25 GMT
[quote And the X-Men and Fantastic Four as a team also have good villains. But MCU doesn't have any good villains at all. Sounds about right to me. From Marvel I only know Xmen villains.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on May 5, 2017 3:41:42 GMT
Batman's rogues gallery alone is superior to anything and everything the MCU has.
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zoilus
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Post by zoilus on May 5, 2017 3:50:09 GMT
Batman's rogues gallery alone is superior to anything and everything the MCU has. I don't agree but even if you were right, they've already made Joker, Croc, and Deadshot really stupid. What good is a great comic villain when you're adapting things as poorly as the DCEU is?
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Post by coldenhaulfield on May 5, 2017 3:54:03 GMT
Batman's rogues gallery alone is superior to anything and everything the MCU has. I don't agree but even if you were right, they've already made Joker, Croc, and Deadshot really stupid. What good is a great comic villain when you're adapting things as poorly as the DCEU is? Seems to be working out okay for the MCU, as their villains are all worse. Innit? Or it innit?
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zoilus
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Post by zoilus on May 5, 2017 3:59:34 GMT
I don't agree but even if you were right, they've already made Joker, Croc, and Deadshot really stupid. What good is a great comic villain when you're adapting things as poorly as the DCEU is? Seems to be working out okay for the MCU, as their villains are all worse. Innit? Or it innit? I can't tell what the hell you're saying but Marvel is kicking ass and taking names while DCEU falters and disappoints.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on May 5, 2017 4:04:01 GMT
Seems to be working out okay for the MCU, as their villains are all worse. Innit? Or it innit? I can't tell what the hell you're saying but Marvel is kicking ass and taking names while DCEU falters and disappoints.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 6:35:31 GMT
an oft overlooked aspect of good drama is that any protagonist is only as good as their antagonist. Translated to the world of tightly clad DC and MCU beefcakes that that means: super-villains. And as sceptical layman, I must say only DC has really iconic household name villains. In fact it seems that some of the villains are even more famous than their rivals: Batman may be the biggest superhero next to Supes, but Joker seems to exceed him on many fronts; hell even his toydoll Harley Quinn is absurdly popular compared to Batgirl or Robin. Let's not discuss all the other Bats villains like Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler, 2-Face - all iconic household names. Same with Supes: Lex Luther is an icon of evil himself. My grandmother knows these names and she never read a comic book! MCU? Who? I knew Loki before, but from Norse mythology, music and literature, not the films. Most in the general public could not name one MCU villain without googling. This is a chronic, inherent deficit that will in the long will blast their heroes back into the obscurity of the nerdosphere, regardless of how many crap DC movies are produced.
Ironically, it's only fair that the same can be said about the second-tier DC heroes: no good household name villains! Thus, nobody in the general public really gives a rat's ass about Flash, Wonderwoman, Aquaman . Their DCU popularity may peak right now because of novelty paired with Bats/Supes fatigue, but in the LONG RUN they will sink back to semi-oblivion again, as will their MCU counterparts. Actually, Flash does have a good Rogues gallery of villains. Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, and the Flash are the superheroes with the best villains. And the X-Men and Fantastic Four as a team also have good villains. But MCU doesn't have any good villains at all.
And I agree 100%, a protagonist isn't good (or great) unless he has a good (or great) and formidable villain to challenge him/her and push him/her to the limit. Without Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker would've just been a farmboy and not a Jedi Knight who destroyed the Death Star and helped defeat the Empire.
Oh, what fruits the DCEU has wrought with their villains! A shouting, hammy Zod inferior to Stamp's take on the character in every way imaginable, a Tourette Syndrome-infested Lex Luthor, a belly-dancing supermodel and her forgettable CGI brother, and the worst Joker ever!
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 6:37:28 GMT
I can't tell what the hell you're saying but Marvel is kicking ass and taking names while DCEU falters and disappoints. Mads Mikkelsen as Kaecilius from Dr. Strange alone blows anything the DCEU has brought to the board out of the water.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on May 5, 2017 6:52:45 GMT
Mads Mikkelsen as Kaecilius from Dr. Strange alone blows anything the DCEU has brought to the board out of the water. Never saw it. Prolly the best looking MCU movie in 3-4 years if the trailers are any indication, to say nothing of Cumberbatch's general standard of absolute excellence in everything he's in. I've no particular knowledge or opinion of the character either and know nothing about Kaecilius, although I will say that the name itself sounds a little like a venereal disease and lacks the panache of, say, "The Riddler."
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