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Post by moviemouth on Oct 9, 2020 2:22:24 GMT
That's right, Batman was not always emotionally dysfunctional-up until the mid 80s he wasn't-he was more like a Zorro crossed with Sherlock Holmes (who also became more neurotic and dysfunctional but people still like the Rathbone version--go figure). The point is you can expect increasing, not decreasing neurosis and dysfunction because like kneeling at a basketball game, the wokeness never shuts off unless the creators are replaced. Has nothing to do with audience opinions or artistic freedom either. The corporate model is not going to suddenly decide they should dial down this political propaganda. Not going to happen because they will only hire people who share their vision. Meanwhile people will still watch The Wild Geese and enjoy it. Hey, I agree that wokeness is the dumbest term of the century and many people take it too far. Then there are the people like you who take the other side even further. That has nothing to do with showing human beings in a more realistic light though. Most movies aren't fantasy films. People seem to have become more emotionally fucked up in the latter part of the 20th century and there are many reasons for this. The greatest art reflects and comments on life, society and existence imo. The reason people have become more noticeably fucked up? Because of the horrible history of the human race.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 9, 2020 2:38:20 GMT
Hey, I agree that wokeness is the dumbest term of the century and many people take it too far. Then there are the people like you who take the other side even further. That has nothing to do with showing human beings in a more realistic light though. Most movies aren't fantasy films. People seem to have become more emotionally fucked up in the latter part of the 20th century and there are many reasons for this. The greatest art reflects and comments on life, society and existence imo I don't think it's a zeitgeist thing (although that is a subject for discussion, especially in earlier decades like the late 60s).
In Pirates of the Caribbean 4 (my favorite film to highlight for this) we are introduced to a white Christian guy strapped to the mast of a ship and he spends the entire movie either a prisoner or making mistakes. Errol Flynn he ain't. He gets mortally wounded, frees a mermaid (who he caused the capture of due to his mistake), and then gets dragged underwater--does he die? Who cares. . Meanwhile, who is the mover and shaker in the story? Jack Sparrow? Nope. Barbarosa? Nope. It's the Obama-type Spanish aristocrat who shows up at the end and destroys the fountain-real take charge guy.
I am not saying every movie should be like this trailer shows, but there's way too much focus in the sickly failure end of the room.
And it has nothing to do with gender politics. Here's one with the woman as the heroic character.
Superhero stories would be a lot better if they went in this direction again. They celebrate the nerd.
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Post by moviemouth on Oct 9, 2020 2:47:16 GMT
Hey, I agree that wokeness is the dumbest term of the century and many people take it too far. Then there are the people like you who take the other side even further. That has nothing to do with showing human beings in a more realistic light though. Most movies aren't fantasy films. People seem to have become more emotionally fucked up in the latter part of the 20th century and there are many reasons for this. The greatest art reflects and comments on life, society and existence imo I don't think it's a zeitgeist thing (although that is a subject for discussion, especially in earlier decades like the late 60s).
In Pirates of the Caribbean 4 (my favorite film to highlight for this) we are introduced to a white Christian guy strapped to the mast of a ship and he spends the entire movie either a prisoner or making mistakes. Errol Flynn he ain't. He gets mortally wounded, frees a mermaid (who he caused the capture of due to his mistake), and then gets dragged underwater--does he die? Who cares. . Meanwhile, who is the mover and shaker in the story? Jack Sparrow? Nope. Barbarosa? Nope. It's the Obama-type Spanish aristocrat who shows up at the end and destroys the fountain-real take charge guy.
I am not saying every movie should be like this trailer shows, but there's way too much focus in the sickly failure end of the room.
And it has nothing to do with gender politics. Here's one with the woman as the heroic character.
Superhero stories would be a lot better if they went in this direction again. They celebrate the nerd.
I am an atheist, so you aren't gaining any points with the Christian thing. I dislike POTC 4, so I don't even care in this case. As someone who despises most religions I actually find the thing you mention in POTC 4 sort of amusing though. We apparently want 2 very different things out of the movies we watch. If movies went back to the kind you are talking about I would lose interest in movies and if movies go too much in the woke direction I will stop liking movies that way too. There is a middle ground and most movies aren't noticeably woke in the way you are alluding to. I only have an issue when i feel that the movies are shoving an agenda down my throat and I have only noticed this in the past decade. It depends on how it is done too though. I am not a fan of the sort of movies you seem to love.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 9, 2020 2:54:16 GMT
I am an atheist, so you aren't gaining any points with the Christian thing. I dislike POTC 4, so I don't even care in this case. As someone who despises most religions I actually find the thing you mention in POTC 4 sort of amusing though. I am not a Christian either but they would not to do that a Muslim guy and in the story it is specifically mentioned he is a Christian so I mean, why even highlight it? The main issue is this is the "white male lead" and he is a complete feeb. But superheroes have been going that way too. I stopped watching them because I am not interested in whether Iron Man and Captain America will fight because one wants to sign a document and the other doesn't. Jesus Christ superstar, this kind of storytelling is pathetic especially for something aimed at kids.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Oct 9, 2020 3:06:24 GMT
That's right, Batman was not always emotionally dysfunctional-up until the mid 80s he wasn't-he was more like a Zorro crossed with Sherlock Holmes (who also became more neurotic and dysfunctional but people still like the Rathbone version--go figure). The point is you can expect increasing, not decreasing neurosis and dysfunction because like kneeling at a basketball game, the wokeness never shuts off unless the creators are replaced. Has nothing to do with audience opinions or artistic freedom either. The corporate model is not going to suddenly decide they should dial down this political propaganda. Not going to happen because they will only hire people who share their vision. Meanwhile people will still watch The Wild Geese and enjoy it. Superheroes have been portrayed as flawed and conflicted since the 60s, when Marvel officially became big. It has nothing to do with “wokeness.”
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Post by moviemouth on Oct 9, 2020 3:06:53 GMT
I am an atheist, so you aren't gaining any points with the Christian thing. I dislike POTC 4, so I don't even care in this case. As someone who despises most religions I actually find the thing you mention in POTC 4 sort of amusing though. I am not a Christian either but they would not to do that a Muslim guy and in the story it is specifically mentioned he is a Christian so I mean, why even highlight it? The main issue is this is the "white male lead" and he is a complete feeb. But superheroes have been going that way too. I stopped watching them because I am not interested in whether Iron Man and Captain America will fight because one wants to sign a document and the other doesn't. Jesus Christ superstar, this kind of storytelling is pathetic especially for something aimed at kids.
I just said that I dislike POTC 4, so it is a moot point. The dominant religion in the U.S. is Christianity though, not Islam. Say what you want, but the only reason people keep going back to this franchise is because of Johnny Depp amd pirate action. Nobody else is paying attention to the stuff you are in the POTC franchise. It is just silly popcorn entertainment. Anyone who is looking deeper is misguided. Some superhero movies have been going in that direction, but that doesn't mean I think they aren't good movies at the same time. Movies have more to offer than just one thing, which is why my taste is so broad. You are just focusing on the one thing, but there is also the entertainment factor and how well made a movie is. I will concede that I agree with you with some of your concerns, but try to look at it from tghe perspective of the groups that have been marginalized through most of the history of the U.S. Why shouldn't women and other races get the same treatment that male characters have gotten forever? I can sympathize even if I don't agree with the way it is being handled.
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Post by moviemouth on Oct 9, 2020 3:08:04 GMT
That's right, Batman was not always emotionally dysfunctional-up until the mid 80s he wasn't-he was more like a Zorro crossed with Sherlock Holmes (who also became more neurotic and dysfunctional but people still like the Rathbone version--go figure). The point is you can expect increasing, not decreasing neurosis and dysfunction because like kneeling at a basketball game, the wokeness never shuts off unless the creators are replaced. Has nothing to do with audience opinions or artistic freedom either. The corporate model is not going to suddenly decide they should dial down this political propaganda. Not going to happen because they will only hire people who share their vision. Meanwhile people will still watch The Wild Geese and enjoy it. Superheroes have been portrayed as flawed and conflicted since the 60s, when Marvel officially became big. It has nothing to do with “wokeness.” Yeah, wasn't the X-Men a response to the civil rights movement?
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 9, 2020 3:09:29 GMT
Superheroes have been portrayed as flawed and conflicted since the 60s, when Marvel officially became big. It has nothing to do with “wokeness.” Yes it does. The early Spider-man was successful despite problems, i.e. he succeeds in the Annual 1 story.
Roy Thomas convinced Stan Lee to take Conan and it became their most popular comic. Not sure what wokeness Conan has. Audiences do not change-media companies do.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Oct 9, 2020 3:09:44 GMT
Superheroes have been portrayed as flawed and conflicted since the 60s, when Marvel officially became big. It has nothing to do with “wokeness.” Yeah, wasn't the X-Men a response to the civil rights movement? In their case, I don’t think that became prominent until the Chris Claremont run.
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Post by moviemouth on Oct 9, 2020 3:11:10 GMT
Yeah, wasn't the X-Men a response to the civil rights movement? In their case, I don’t think that became prominent until the Chris Claremont run. I don't know who that is.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Oct 9, 2020 3:15:23 GMT
In their case, I don’t think that became prominent until the Chris Claremont run. I don't know who that is. He’s a comic book writer. He’s seen as the one who made the X-Men what they are best known for today. The X-Men was just another superhero team back in the 60s. If anything, the Fantastic Four was much more popular. Claremont helped change that. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Claremont
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 9, 2020 3:18:45 GMT
I just said that I dislike POTC 4, so it is a moot point. The dominant religion in the U.S. is Christianity though, not Islam. Say what you want, but the only reason people keep going back to this franchise is because of Johnny Depp amd pirate action. Nobody else is paying attention to the stuff you are in the POTC franchise. It is just silly popcorn entertainment. Anyone who is looking deeper is misguided.
Some superhero movies have been going in that direction, but that doesn't mean I think they aren't good movies at the same time. Movies have more to offer than just one thing, which is why my taste is so broad. You are just focusing on the one thing, but there is also the entertainment factor and how well made a movie is. I will concede that I agree with you with some of your concerns, but try to look at it from tghe perspective of the groups that have been marginalized through most of the history of the U.S. Why shouldn't women and other races get the same treatment that male characters have gotten forever? I can sympathize even if I don't agree with the way it is being handled. No it is not misguided. People wondered why Luke was such a failure in the Star Wars movie. You can see the trends of media ownership. This is easy to predict because they cannot back away from their limited story and character range. It's incestuous and cannibalistic (I admit it is kind of fascinating to watch as a sociological and biological phenomenon).
Thus 007 has to be a black woman because they are incapable of thinking beyond their limits. They will not go back into tradition--like an abstract artist who rejects a 1000 years of art history (and audience taste). Or a writer who is illiterate.
This has nothing to do with what the public likes, or giving artists freedom to create. It's limitations caused by the narrow ownership and their, how shall we say, lack of respect for their customer.
The Wild Geese was made outside of Hollywood. Even in 1978 Hollywood would not have touched that story with a ten foot pole (and it had political progressive ingredients too, just not enough for Hollywood).
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Post by moviemouth on Oct 9, 2020 3:20:23 GMT
I don't know who that is. He’s seen as the one who made the X-Men what they are best known for today. The X-Men was just another superhero team back in the 60s. If anything, the Fantastic Four was much more popular. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Claremont I figured that much.  Thanks for the info though. My point is that it is hard to imagine that if the way he wrote it is what the X-Men cartoon and movies do, that it was a comic book reflection of the civil rights movement still though. Professor X is basically the Martin Luthor King character and Magneto is the Malcolm X character.
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Post by moviemouth on Oct 9, 2020 3:22:27 GMT
I just said that I dislike POTC 4, so it is a moot point. The dominant religion in the U.S. is Christianity though, not Islam. Say what you want, but the only reason people keep going back to this franchise is because of Johnny Depp amd pirate action. Nobody else is paying attention to the stuff you are in the POTC franchise. It is just silly popcorn entertainment. Anyone who is looking deeper is misguided.
Some superhero movies have been going in that direction, but that doesn't mean I think they aren't good movies at the same time. Movies have more to offer than just one thing, which is why my taste is so broad. You are just focusing on the one thing, but there is also the entertainment factor and how well made a movie is. I will concede that I agree with you with some of your concerns, but try to look at it from tghe perspective of the groups that have been marginalized through most of the history of the U.S. Why shouldn't women and other races get the same treatment that male characters have gotten forever? I can sympathize even if I don't agree with the way it is being handled. No it is not misguided. People wondered why Luke was such a failure in the Star Wars movie. You can see the trends of media ownership. This is easy to predict because they cannot back away from their limited story and character range. It's incestuous and cannibalistic (I admit it is kind of fascinating to watch as a sociological and biological phenomenon).
Thus 007 has to be a black woman because they are incapable of thinking beyond their limits. They will not go back into tradition--like an abstract artist who rejects a 1000 years of art history (and audience taste). Or a writer who is illiterate.
This has nothing to do with what the public likes, or giving artists freedom to create. It's limitations caused by the narrow ownership and their, how shall we say, lack of respect for their customer.
The Wild Geese was made outside of Hollywood. Even in 1978 Hollywood would not have touched that story with a ten foot pole (and it had political progressive ingredients too, just not enough for Hollywood).
The POTC movies up until 4 gave me exactly what I wanted, so Hollywood was doing a great service in that case. Same with many Hollywood movies. Indie movies I am more interested in in general, because they are allowed to be much more creative. Classic era Hollywood was much more consistent though. You need to lighten up.
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Post by Prime etc. on Oct 9, 2020 6:03:21 GMT
The POTC movies up until 4 gave me exactly what I wanted, so Hollywood was doing a great service in that case. Same with many Hollywood movies. Indie movies I am more interested in in general, because they are allowed to be much more creative. Classic era Hollywood was much more consistent though. You need to lighten up. lol Hollywood needs to lighten up.
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