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Post by movieliker on Jan 3, 2021 18:33:15 GMT
Eva Yojimbo said; My "evidence" is I've lived as a believer, an Agnostic and Atheist. I was happier and more successful as a believer. Eva Yojimbo said; It's wrong for believers to say, "I believe without evidence. And everybody else should also. " But --- it's also wrong for you and others to say, "Religion doesn't make sense to me. I have no evidence that there is a God. So everybody who decides to believe in God is stupid and wrong. " There is no difference. People can believe whatever they choose. There is no evidence either way. ######## I think you are talking about the religious right, as far as religion causing trouble in American politics. I agree. They seem stupid, oppressive and afraid of change. But that doesn't mean that all or even most believers are stupid, oppressive and afraid of change And as far as those who are stupid, oppressive and afraid of change --- that is not the religion's fault. It's the fault of the religious and political leaders they are listening to. And the voters themselves. If somebody runs over a crowd with a car, it's not the car's fault. It's the driver's fault. And what he used the car for.
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Post by SciFive on Jan 3, 2021 19:23:18 GMT
So what you think when you vote is other people’s business. They have the right to poke into your thoughts in the same way you poke into theirs. That first sentence is not coherent English. They certainly have the right to poke into my thoughts when I come on a message board and start making various claims. It's called "discussion." Maybe you've heard of it. So you accept other people’s concerns about why you vote the way you do. Some people are very concerned.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 3, 2021 20:00:26 GMT
Eva Yojimbo said; My "evidence" is I've lived as a believer, an Agnostic and Atheist. I was happier and more successful as a believer. Eva Yojimbo said; It's wrong for believers to say, "I believe without evidence. And everybody else should also. " But --- it's also wrong for you and others to say, "Religion doesn't make sense to me. I have no evidence that there is no God. So everybody who decides to believe in God is stupid and wrong. " There is no difference. People can believe whatever they choose. There is no evidence either way. ######## I think you are talking about the religious right, as far as religion causing trouble in American politics. I agree. They seem stupid, oppressive and afraid of change. But that doesn't mean that all or even most believers are stupid, oppressive and afraid of change And as far as those who are stupid, oppressive and afraid of change --- that is not the religion's fault. It's the fault of the religious and political leaders they are listening to. And the voters themselves. If somebody runs over a crowd with a car, it's not the car's fault. It's the driver's fault. And what he used the car for. A belief that makes you happy is not evidence that belief is true. It might make me happy to believe I have $10,000,000 in my bank account. My happiness has no bearing on whether or not I do. That's a blatant Wishful Thinking fallacy. Religion makes perfect sense to me. I was raised religious. I've also read about/studied religion more than the vast majority of believers. It's not that I have no evidence there is no God, it's that nobody does (or if someone does they've never presented it). Every time believers offer what they consider evidence, it turns out to be not evidence but cognitive biases and logical fallacies. Also, I haven't called anyone (believers or not) stupid or wrong; I've called believers irrational, and I've also said that all humans are irrational. The only evidence possible that something doesn't exist is a lack of evidence that it does, and this is precisely what we see with God. Religion, at least in its most serious, enthusiastic forms, seem to appeal far more to conservatives than liberals. There are many psychological reason for this, but it's why the vast majority of people who are highly religious (especially in the US) are also highly conservative. Yes, there are plenty of liberals who are religious, but they are also less inclined to let their religion's various tenants influence their voting. I bet you'd be hard-pressed to name any issue that liberals vote on for which they primarily cite their religion as the reason they vote that way, but that's certainly not true for conservatives. Cars don't encourage drivers to run over people. Religions encourage people to commit all kinds of immoral acts. Would you like me to quote you Exodus 21 again?
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 3, 2021 20:01:48 GMT
That first sentence is not coherent English. They certainly have the right to poke into my thoughts when I come on a message board and start making various claims. It's called "discussion." Maybe you've heard of it. So you accept other people’s concerns about why you vote the way you do. Some people are very concerned. If I come on a forum to discuss such things, then yes. Good, then be concerned. Ask me questions about why I believe what I believe and how that influences my voting. I promise I won't tell you it's none of your business.
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Post by movieliker on Jan 3, 2021 20:14:10 GMT
Eva Yojimbo said Ha ha ha . . . That makes absolutely no sense. Before telescopes, there was no evidence that other planets existed, or that the Earth wasn't the center of the Universe. Before somebody went around, there was no evidence the Earth was round. Does that lack of evidence prove there are no other planets, the Earth is the center of the Universe, and the Earth is flat? ###### The rest of your post just seems to be blaming religion for what stupid people do with religion. The religion didn't influence stupid people to be or act stupid. They just misinterpreted their religion, and used it as an excuse to do bad. I will and have joined you and people like you in condemning people for misinterpreting religion, and using it to do bad things. But it's the people, not the religion. Otherwise I would be a bad person also.
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Post by mystery on Jan 3, 2021 20:20:50 GMT
In my experience, debates rarely (if ever) change anyone's mind. Quite the opposite, in fact, because it usually only makes them even more entrenched in their beliefs. I generally think it's more constructive to focus on expanding freedoms for all of us, rather than trying to tear down someone else's belief system, but that's just me. *shrug*
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 3, 2021 20:51:19 GMT
Eva Yojimbo said Ha ha ha . . . That makes absolutely no sense. Before telescopes, there was no evidence that other planets existed, or that the Earth wasn't the center of the Universe. Before somebody went around, there was no evidence the Earth was round. Does that lack of evidence prove there are no other planets, the Earth is the center of the Universe, and the Earth is flat? ###### The rest of your post just seems to be blaming religion for what stupid people do with religion. The religion didn't influence stupid people to be or act stupid. They just misinterpreted their religion, and used it as an excuse to do bad. I will and have joined you and people like you in condemning people for misinterpreting religion, and using it to do bad things. But it's the people, not the religion. Otherwise I would be a bad person also. It absolutely makes sense if you understood how evidence works. If X does not exist, you would expect to see no evidence for it 100% of the time, while if X does exists you'd expect to see no evidence for it <100% of the time (in the vast majority of cases). You're also confusing evidence with proof; they are not the same thing. Other than the other planets existing, your examples also aren't analogous to what I'm saying. I already said earlier that, yes, before telescopes we had no evidence for other planets so it would've been irrational to believe they existed. It would've been rational to believe they were likely if only because we know planets can exist (we live on one) and it would seem unlikely that there'd be all these balls of light in the sky at night but no other planets around them. You really need to distinguish between "proof" and "evidence," and also between a "lack of belief" and a "belief." Better to think of this whole thing in term of probabilities. As for religion and bad behavior, you seem to be ignoring that there are explicit passages in religious books that condone, endorse, if not command immoral things. Of course religious people are free to ignore those things, and frequently do, but this doesn't change the fact that many also use such passages to convince themselves that such acts/beliefs are actually righteous. Without religion they wouldn't be able to do this.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 3, 2021 20:52:47 GMT
In my experience, debates rarely (if ever) change anyone's mind. Quite the opposite, in fact, because it usually only makes them even more entrenched in their beliefs. I generally think it's more constructive to focus on expanding freedoms for all of us, rather than trying to tear down someone else's belief system, but that's just me. *shrug* Debates aren't for changing the minds of the people that are already convinced on either side, it's for swaying the minds of the people in the middle that happen to be listening in.
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Post by SciFive on Jan 3, 2021 20:56:27 GMT
If X does not exist, you would expect to see no evidence for it 100% of the time, while if X does exists you'd expect to see no evidence for it <100% of the time (in the vast majority of cases).
——————
You’re talking about the physical world and applying it to a spiritual world that you can’t prove is nonexistent.
You make no sense.
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Post by movieliker on Jan 3, 2021 21:05:08 GMT
In my experience, debates rarely (if ever) change anyone's mind. Quite the opposite, in fact, because it usually only makes them even more entrenched in their beliefs. I generally think it's more constructive to focus on expanding freedoms for all of us, rather than trying to tear down someone else's belief system, but that's just me. *shrug* Debates aren't for changing the minds of the people that are already convinced on either side, it's for swaying the minds of the people in the middle that happen to be listening in. That's wrong. The main purpose of debate is for the debators to challenge their own beliefs, and refine their argument. Not to change any minds, or convince the undecided.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 3, 2021 21:15:56 GMT
If X does not exist, you would expect to see no evidence for it 100% of the time, while if X does exists you'd expect to see no evidence for it <100% of the time (in the vast majority of cases). —————— You’re talking about the physical world and applying it to a spiritual world that you can’t prove is nonexistent. You make no sense. And you're assuming the spiritual world exists and is separate from the physical world. Where is the evidence for either?
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 3, 2021 21:18:52 GMT
Debates aren't for changing the minds of the people that are already convinced on either side, it's for swaying the minds of the people in the middle that happen to be listening in. That's wrong. The main purpose of debate is for the debators to challenge their own beliefs, and refine their argument. Not to change any minds, or convince the undecided. That might be the purpose for certain debaters, but in terms of influencing opinions the targets are the undecideds.
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Post by SciFive on Jan 3, 2021 21:18:55 GMT
If X does not exist, you would expect to see no evidence for it 100% of the time, while if X does exists you'd expect to see no evidence for it <100% of the time (in the vast majority of cases). —————— You’re talking about the physical world and applying it to a spiritual world that you can’t prove is nonexistent. You make no sense. And you're assuming the spiritual world exists and (assuming it does) is separate from the physical world. Where is the evidence for either? You can’t use the physical world to prove the existence or non-existence of a spiritual world. You can’t. No one else needs to prove anything to you unless they ask you to believe something that you don’t believe now.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 3, 2021 21:21:36 GMT
And you're assuming the spiritual world exists and (assuming it does) is separate from the physical world. Where is the evidence for either? You can’t use the physical world to prove the existence or non-existence of a spiritual world.
You can’t. No one else needs to prove anything to you unless they ask you to believe something that you don’t believe now. Great. What can you use to prove the existence of a spiritual world and how do you know it's reliable? Again, you're on a forum for discussing this exact subject. Of course you don't "need" to prove anything, but if you fail to then nobody has a reason to take your claims seriously.
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Post by SciFive on Jan 3, 2021 21:25:46 GMT
You can’t use the physical world to prove the existence or non-existence of a spiritual world.
You can’t. No one else needs to prove anything to you unless they ask you to believe something that you don’t believe now. Great. What can you use to prove the existence of a spiritual world and how do you know it's reliable? Again, you're on a forum for discussing this exact subject. Of course you don't "need" to prove anything, but if you fail to then nobody has a reason to take your claims seriously. I’m not making claims or asking anyone to believe anything. I am saying that it makes no sense to use physical rules to test the idea of a spiritual world. It proves nothing.
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Post by movieliker on Jan 3, 2021 21:40:56 GMT
Eva Yojimbo said Ha ha ha . . . That makes absolutely no sense. Before telescopes, there was no evidence that other planets existed, or that the Earth wasn't the center of the Universe. Before somebody went around, there was no evidence the Earth was round. Does that lack of evidence prove there are no other planets, the Earth is the center of the Universe, and the Earth is flat? ###### The rest of your post just seems to be blaming religion for what stupid people do with religion. The religion didn't influence stupid people to be or act stupid. They just misinterpreted their religion, and used it as an excuse to do bad. I will and have joined you and people like you in condemning people for misinterpreting religion, and using it to do bad things. But it's the people, not the religion. Otherwise I would be a bad person also. It absolutely makes sense if you understood how evidence works. If X does not exist, you would expect to see no evidence for it 100% of the time, while if X does exists you'd expect to see no evidence for it <100% of the time (in the vast majority of cases). You're also confusing evidence with proof; they are not the same thing. Other than the other planets existing, your examples also aren't analogous to what I'm saying. I already said earlier that, yes, before telescopes we had no evidence for other planets so it would've been irrational to believe they existed. It would've been rational to believe they were likely if only because we know planets can exist (we live on one) and it would seem unlikely that there'd be all these balls of light in the sky at night but no other planets around them. You really need to distinguish between "proof" and "evidence," and also between a "lack of belief" and a "belief." Better to think of this whole thing in term of probabilities. As for religion and bad behavior, you seem to be ignoring that there are explicit passages in religious books that condone, endorse, if not command immoral things. Of course religious people are free to ignore those things, and frequently do, but this doesn't change the fact that many also use such passages to convince themselves that such acts/beliefs are actually righteous. Without religion they wouldn't be able to do this. Doesn't make any difference. Lack of evidence or proof proves nothing. The Bible (and probably all religious books) are just books of wisdom written by men. It's every reader's responsibility to read them all discriminately and decide what they like and don't. If readers misinterpret the Bible or any other holy book, the onus is on the reader. Not the book.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jan 3, 2021 22:00:30 GMT
Great. What can you use to prove the existence of a spiritual world and how do you know it's reliable? Again, you're on a forum for discussing this exact subject. Of course you don't "need" to prove anything, but if you fail to then nobody has a reason to take your claims seriously. I’m not making claims or asking anyone to believe anything. I am saying that it makes no sense to use physical rules to test the idea of a spiritual world. It proves nothing. "I am saying that it makes no sense to use physical rules to test the idea of a spiritual world." That's a bit fallacious, it comes with the presuposition that a "spiritual world" is even real to begin with. That's like saying "it makes no sense to use physical rules to test the idea of a magical leprechaun realm". The realm hasn't even been demonstrated to exist to begin with saying it can't be tested through "physical means" is rather moot.
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Post by movieliker on Jan 3, 2021 22:04:23 GMT
I’m not making claims or asking anyone to believe anything. I am saying that it makes no sense to use physical rules to test the idea of a spiritual world. It proves nothing. "I am saying that it makes no sense to use physical rules to test the idea of a spiritual world." That's a bit fallacious, it comes with the presuposition that a "spiritual world" is even real to begin with. That's like saying "it makes no sense to use physical rules to test the idea of a magical leprechaun realm". The realm hasn't even been demonstrated to exist to begin with saying it can't be tested through "physical means" is rather moot. She's not saying that. She is saying you can't measure intangibles with the same tools you use to measure tangibles.
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Post by lordarvidthexiii on Jan 3, 2021 22:08:02 GMT
I’m not making claims or asking anyone to believe anything. I am saying that it makes no sense to use physical rules to test the idea of a spiritual world. It proves nothing. "I am saying that it makes no sense to use physical rules to test the idea of a spiritual world." That's a bit fallacious, it comes with the presuposition that a "spiritual world" is even real to begin with. That's like saying "it makes no sense to use physical rules to test the idea of a magical leprechaun realm". The realm hasn't even been demonstrated to exist to begin with saying it can't be tested through "physical means" is rather moot. "That's a bit fallacious, it comes with the presuposition that a "spiritual world" is even real to begin with." Do you believe in noncorporeal universes or the multiverse? If yes, then it is reasonable supposition.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jan 3, 2021 22:24:48 GMT
"I am saying that it makes no sense to use physical rules to test the idea of a spiritual world." That's a bit fallacious, it comes with the presuposition that a "spiritual world" is even real to begin with. That's like saying "it makes no sense to use physical rules to test the idea of a magical leprechaun realm". The realm hasn't even been demonstrated to exist to begin with saying it can't be tested through "physical means" is rather moot. She's not saying that. She is saying you can't measure intangibles with the same tools you use to measure tangibles. That's assuming the "intangibles" even exist, which hasn't been proven to exist on any empirical level, so saying it can't be measured with tangible means is rather moot. That's like saying "Statement A is true, it just can't be proven with physical means", even Statement A hasn't actually been proven to begin with, you're just buying into the assumption that's it real.
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