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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2021 19:20:31 GMT
Heath Ledger While I understand where you are coming from with Phoenix, Ledger's Joker is a full fledged domestic terrorist and loves it. And I too get your perspective. In fact, before I watched them back to back. I thought I was going to pick Ledger. From my memory. But watching it back to back, I had a sick feeling after “Joker” (2019) that I didn’t have after watching “The Dark Knight” (2008) and it was that scene with Zazie In her apartment. The look he gives her. The faking of the gun to his head. Or the scene where he kills the fat clown. The look on his face. It’s creepy. |
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Post by sdrew13163 on Jan 13, 2021 19:27:07 GMT
Phoenix is more unsettling than scary, whereas Ledger can be terrifying.
Not to split hairs here, but you said part of what makes Ledger’s Joker less scary is that you know he’ll lose to Batman - but he really doesn’t.
Batman and Gordon have to create a lie that (predictably) comes back to bite them just to cover up the fact that the Joker won. That’s pretty scary all by itself.
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Post by moviemouth on Jan 13, 2021 19:28:41 GMT
Heath Ledger While I understand where you are coming from with Phoenix, Ledger's Joker is a full fledged domestic terrorist and loves it. And I too get your perspective. In fact, before I watched them back to back. I thought I was going to pick Ledger. From my memory. But watching it back to back, I had a sick feeling after “Joker” (2019) that I didn’t have after watching “The Dark Knight” (2008) and it was that scene with Zazie In her apartment. The look he gives her. The faking of the gun to his head. Or the scene where he kills the fat clown. The look on his face. It’s creepy. Wait, are you only talking performance-wise? Phoenix's performance is more disturbing, but that is because of the nature of the movie itself. Joker is a movie about a man losing all humanity, but like other people said, he is less scary because we are being given too much information. Joker in TDK is scary in the way Michael Myers is scary.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2021 19:29:16 GMT
And I too get your perspective. In fact, before I watched them back to back. I thought I was going to pick Ledger. From my memory. But watching it back to back, I had a sick feeling after “Joker” (2019) that I didn’t have after watching “The Dark Knight” (2008) and it was that scene with Zazie In her apartment. The look he gives her. The faking of the gun to his head. Or the scene where he kills the fat clown. The look on his face. It’s creepy. Wait, are you only talking performance-wise? Yeah, I just meant their performance. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2021 19:32:25 GMT
Phoenix is more unsettling than scary, whereas Ledger can be terrifying. Not to split hairs here, but you said part of what makes Ledger’s Joker less scary is that you know he’ll lose to Batman - but he really doesn’t. Batman and Gordon have to create a lie that (predictably) comes back to bite them just to cover up the fact that the Joker won. That’s pretty scary all by itself. But Joker doesn’t win. |
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Post by moviemouth on Jan 13, 2021 19:34:58 GMT
Wait, are you only talking performance-wise? Yeah, I just meant their performance. Phoenix's performance is more disturbing, but that is because of the nature of the movie itself. Joker is a movie about a man losing all humanity, but like other people said, he is less scary because we are being given too much information. Joker in TDK is scary in the way Michael Myers is scary. Performance-wise I would say they are equally scary. They are both frightening in very different ways.
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Post by moviemouth on Jan 13, 2021 19:38:13 GMT
Phoenix is more unsettling than scary, whereas Ledger can be terrifying. Not to split hairs here, but you said part of what makes Ledger’s Joker less scary is that you know he’ll lose to Batman - but he really doesn’t. Batman and Gordon have to create a lie that (predictably) comes back to bite them just to cover up the fact that the Joker won. That’s pretty scary all by itself. But Joker doesn’t win. He does win depending on how you look at it. He pushes Batman to the edge and he tears down everything that Batman had built up. The reason he is so amused in his final scene is because he knows he won. He didn't win in every way, but he wins in a couple very important ways.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 13, 2021 19:42:48 GMT
Phoenix is more unsettling than scary, whereas Ledger can be terrifying. Not to split hairs here, but you said part of what makes Ledger’s Joker less scary is that you know he’ll lose to Batman - but he really doesn’t. Batman and Gordon have to create a lie that (predictably) comes back to bite them just to cover up the fact that the Joker won. That’s pretty scary all by itself. But Joker doesn’t win. He won the moment Bane revealed the truth in TDKR. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2021 19:43:49 GMT
He won the moment Bane revealed the truth in TDKR. But Batman saves Gotham. So he still doesn’t win. Also, the people didn’t blow up the other ship, so he didn’t prove people would turn on each other. |
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Post by moviemouth on Jan 13, 2021 19:48:21 GMT
He won the moment Bane revealed the truth in TDKR. But Batman saves Gotham. So he still doesn’t win. Also, the people didn’t blow up the other ship, so he didn’t prove people would turn on each other. He doesn't win in every way, but he managed to turn Batman into an even bigger outcast than he was before, he turns the white knight of Gotham into a murdering psychopath and he kills the only person Bruce Wayne loves. Harvey Dent is his ace in the hole. He even says this with joy in his final scene. He essentially ruins Bruce Wayne's plans for the future. Part of what TDKR is saying is that the city has very little crime because of the Harvey Dent act, a change in laws that resulted from a lie.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 13, 2021 19:57:50 GMT
He won the moment Bane revealed the truth in TDKR. But Batman saves Gotham. So he still doesn’t win. Also, the people didn’t blow up the other ship, so he didn’t prove people would turn on each other. He has people turning against each other the entire film, starting with the bank robbers at the beginning. His main failure is not getting Batman to kill him, but he suceeds in turning Harvey into a killer and he presumed that once people found out they'd lose hope (thus situations like the boats would play out differently). He's proven right in TDKR, the city goes to shit when Bane reveals the truth about Harvey. It was short lived as Batman's sacrifice seemed to make everyone forget about it, though. I guess a DA shooting Eric Roberts' driver isn't a big deal after you've nearly been incinerated. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2021 20:00:46 GMT
But Batman saves Gotham. So he still doesn’t win. Also, the people didn’t blow up the other ship, so he didn’t prove people would turn on each other. He has people turning against each other the entire film, starting with the bank robbers at the beginning. His main failure is not getting Batman to kill him, but he suceeds in turning Harvey into a killer and he presumed that once people found out they'd lose hope (thus situations like the boats would play out differently). He's proven right in TDKR, the city goes to shit when Bane reveals the truth about Harvey. It was short lived as Batman's sacrifice seemed to make everyone forget about it, though. I guess a DA shooting Eric Roberts' driver isn't a big deal after you've nearly been incinerated. But the reason I found Joaquin Phoenix Joker scarier is he had no plan. Society created him. Then he did create a movement (unintentionally) but he did nonetheless. And he did succeed. Thomas Wayne was murdered, Murray was murdered. The lower socioeconomic people rioted and destroyed the city. |
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Post by moviemouth on Jan 13, 2021 20:06:45 GMT
He has people turning against each other the entire film, starting with the bank robbers at the beginning. His main failure is not getting Batman to kill him, but he suceeds in turning Harvey into a killer and he presumed that once people found out they'd lose hope (thus situations like the boats would play out differently). He's proven right in TDKR, the city goes to shit when Bane reveals the truth about Harvey. It was short lived as Batman's sacrifice seemed to make everyone forget about it, though. I guess a DA shooting Eric Roberts' driver isn't a big deal after you've nearly been incinerated. But the reason I found Joaquin Phoenix Joker scarier is he had no plan. Society created him. Then he did create a movement (unintentionally) but he did nonetheless. And he did succeed. Thomas Wayne was murdered, Murray was murdered. The lower socioeconomic people rioted and destroyed the city. No big loss. The only person he kills that I felt bad for is the psychiatrist at the end.
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Post by jcush on Jan 13, 2021 20:10:01 GMT
Ledger
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 13, 2021 20:23:03 GMT
He has people turning against each other the entire film, starting with the bank robbers at the beginning. His main failure is not getting Batman to kill him, but he suceeds in turning Harvey into a killer and he presumed that once people found out they'd lose hope (thus situations like the boats would play out differently). He's proven right in TDKR, the city goes to shit when Bane reveals the truth about Harvey. It was short lived as Batman's sacrifice seemed to make everyone forget about it, though. I guess a DA shooting Eric Roberts' driver isn't a big deal after you've nearly been incinerated. But the reason I found Joaquin Phoenix Joker scarier is he had no plan. Society created him. Then he did create a movement (unintentionally) but he did nonetheless. And he did succeed. Thomas Wayne was murdered, Murray was murdered. The lower socioeconomic people rioted and destroyed the city. He had multiple plans, they just evolved. First he was gonna be a famous standup comedian, then he was gonna kill himself on live TV. He doesn't really embrace anarchy until the last couple scenes, then the movie's over. As far as scariness goes, if you put our empathy into Joker over his victims, it's inevitably gonna be less scary. And like El Mouth alluded to, Murray and Wayne were assholes. |
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Post by millar70 on Jan 13, 2021 22:29:04 GMT
I didn't see Heath Ledger crawl into an empty refrigerator, so I'm going with Joaquin Phoenix.
Seriously, what was up with that scene? Creepy and weird.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2021 22:30:22 GMT
I didn't see Heath Ledger crawl into an empty refrigerator, so I'm going with Joaquin Phoenix. Seriously, what was up with that scene? Creepy and weird. I agree. He was unsettling. Unhinged and unpredictable. He went on the Murray show to shoot himself but he ended up killing Murray at the last second. |
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Post by millar70 on Jan 13, 2021 22:34:45 GMT
I didn't see Heath Ledger crawl into an empty refrigerator, so I'm going with Joaquin Phoenix. Seriously, what was up with that scene? Creepy and weird. I agree. He was unsettling. Unhinged and unpredictable. He went on the Murray show to shoot himself but he ended up killing Murray at the last second. Plus there's the fact that the whole thing may have been a figment of the imagination of a very unstable mental patient. The Dark Knight is a legitimate classic, but I think years from now Joker will be a film that will still raise a lot of questions. Very unsettling film. |
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Post by theravenking on Jan 14, 2021 10:53:39 GMT
For me Ledger's Joker is scarier, because he is impossible to relate to. We don't know who's behind the mask, all we are seeing is a creepy terrorist doing all kinds of random crazy stuff. He reminded me of some creepy kids back from school who were scary because they were so unpredictable, randomly destroying other people's property and beating and terrorizing others for no reason whatsoever just for their own twisted sense of fun. You could've started theorising about why there were doing it, perhaps they had a tough upbringing or strict parents or whatever, but they were still creepy and unlikeable and you wanted to stay the hell away from them.
Whereas Phoenix's Joker is a tragic antihero I could relate to personally. I don't have daddy issues myself and I never thought of murdering my girlfriend, but nonetheless there is something genuinely human about the guy. He is indeed like Travis Bickle, even if you don't want to go on a killing spree yourself, you can still emphasize with his problems.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2021 11:07:57 GMT
For me Ledger's Joker is scarier, because he is impossible to relate to. We don't know who's behind the mask, all we are seeing is a creepy terrorist doing all kinds of random crazy stuff. He reminded me of some creepy kids back from school who were scary because they were so unpredictable, randomly destroying other people's property and beating and terrorizing others for no reason whatsoever just for their own twisted sense of fun. You could've started theorising about why there were doing it, perhaps they had a tough upbringing or strict parents or whatever, but they were still creepy and unlikeable and you wanted to stay the hell away from them. Whereas Phoenix's Joker is a tragic antihero I could relate to personally. I don't have daddy issues myself and I never thought of murdering my girlfriend, but nonetheless there is something genuinely human about the guy. He is indeed like Travis Bickle, even if you don't want to go on a killing spree yourself, you can still emphathize with his problems. And for me, that’s exactly what makes Joaquin Phoenix Joker scary to me. That it’s real. Any one of us could be him if pushed the right way. Like, as I’m watching it all I can think is “Woah, why do I empathize with this guy?” And “This feels too real.” Whereas with Ledger, I feel like “This is scary, good thing it’s not likely. Or will never happen.” |
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