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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 21, 2021 21:41:08 GMT
See, this is where I get off the train. Is he saying that if all thinking creatures go extinct that the universe will no longer exist? Maybe the universe just behaves a different way when there are thinking creatures to observe it. I have no reason to believe that the universe will cease to exits if all conscious life in the universe were to go extinct. Where did consciousness come from if abiogenesis and evolution didn't produce it? Creatures...and all matter...are the repository of the “thinking” that happens at the superposition, quantum state. This sounds very Chopra-woo.
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Post by moviemouth on Jan 21, 2021 21:46:04 GMT
Creatures...and all matter...are the repository of the “thinking” that happens at the superposition, quantum state. This sounds very Chopra-woo. Wikipedia is just confusing me when I looked up quantum superposition. I even watched a video that was "dumbing it down" and I still don't know what the fuck is being explained. Basically it is "whatever" when it comes to this stuff.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 21, 2021 22:02:51 GMT
Creatures...and all matter...are the repository of the “thinking” that happens at the superposition, quantum state. This sounds very Chopra-woo. An endorsement from Chopra is splashed on the cover!
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 21, 2021 22:04:39 GMT
Where did consciousness come from if abiogenesis and evolution didn't produce It just is. The idea is consciousness is reality and so must exist.
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Post by moviemouth on Jan 21, 2021 22:15:10 GMT
Where did consciousness come from if abiogenesis and evolution didn't produce It just is. The idea is consciousness is reality and so must exist. That doesn't make sense is what I am saying. What definition of consciousness is being used here? I have no reason to believe that consciousness is just "out there." I love how anytime people start talking about this stuff it is just these vague ways of explaining it.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 21, 2021 22:56:59 GMT
This sounds very Chopra-woo. Wikipedia is just confusing me when I looked up quantum superposition. I even watched a video that was "dumbing it down" and I still don't know what the fuck is being explained. Basically it is "whatever" when it comes to this stuff. Superposition is just a state where particles are in multiple positions at once similar to a wave. EG, one way to measure particles is "spin-up" or "spin-down," and before we try to measure/observe where they are, we see them in a superposition of both "spin-up" AND "spin-down." This is where the famous Shrodinger's Cat thought experiment comes from. Place a cat in a box with a vial of poison that can randomly break open at any moment. Before we look into the box to see whether the cat is alive or dead, we can think of the cat as being in a superposition of both alive AND dead. We can even observe this effect during the double-slit experiment: if you fire a particle at two slits it will go through both (as if it were a wave) and interfere with itself. However, if you're measuring them as they're going through, they only go through one slit or the other. Here's a video on it: How to explain this mystery has perhaps been the most debated/controversial aspect of physics over the last century. It's given license to a lot of woo-peddlers who like to claim it's proof that reality doesn't exist unless we observe it. Problem is that we are totally unnecessary for such observations. IMO, the most likely explanation is that the superposition is real (ie, all states of the particle exist) and that observation is merely two quantum systems entangling with each other and then decohering into the environment. Every other interpretation creates logical or physical paradoxes and require additional assumptions that are unwarranted by either experiment or math. IE, "go with Occam's Razor until there's evidence for anything else."
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 21, 2021 22:57:23 GMT
This sounds very Chopra-woo. An endorsement from Chopra is splashed on the cover! Unsurprising and makes me even less inclined to take it seriously!
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Post by moviemouth on Jan 21, 2021 23:20:29 GMT
Wikipedia is just confusing me when I looked up quantum superposition. I even watched a video that was "dumbing it down" and I still don't know what the fuck is being explained. Basically it is "whatever" when it comes to this stuff. Superposition is just a state where particles are in multiple positions at once similar to a wave. EG, one way to measure particles is "spin-up" or "spin-down," and before we try to measure/observe where they are, we see them in a superposition of both "spin-up" AND "spin-down." This is where the famous Shrodinger's Cat thought experiment comes from. Place a cat in a box with a vial of poison that can randomly break open at any moment. Before we look into the box to see whether the cat is alive or dead, we can think of the cat as being in a superposition of both alive AND dead. We can even observe this effect during the double-slit experiment: if you fire a particle at two slits it will go through both (as if it were a wave) and interfere with itself. However, if you're measuring them as they're going through, they only go through one slit or the other. Here's a video on it: How to explain this mystery has perhaps been the most debated/controversial aspect of physics over the last century. It's given license to a lot of woo-peddlers who like to claim it's proof that reality doesn't exist unless we observe it. Problem is that we are totally unnecessary for such observations. IMO, the most likely explanation is that the superposition is real (ie, all states of the particle exist) and that observation is merely two quantum systems entangling with each other and then decohering into the environment. Every other interpretation creates logical or physical paradoxes and require additional assumptions that are unwarranted by either experiment or math. IE, "go with Occam's Razor until there's evidence for anything else." Thank you. You are actually good at explaining this stuff in a very simple and direct way. I took it to mean something like what you said above, but I was getting confused by how that gets to "reality is consciousness" stuff. I have also heard of the "poison in the box example," which I only sort of understand. Isn't it just that for all we know the cat could be alive or dead? How can we look at it as the cat is both alive AND dead? I have heard it both ways. I understand the former, but the latter seems to be in conflict with logic.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 21, 2021 23:52:22 GMT
Superposition is just a state where particles are in multiple positions at once similar to a wave. EG, one way to measure particles is "spin-up" or "spin-down," and before we try to measure/observe where they are, we see them in a superposition of both "spin-up" AND "spin-down." This is where the famous Shrodinger's Cat thought experiment comes from. Place a cat in a box with a vial of poison that can randomly break open at any moment. Before we look into the box to see whether the cat is alive or dead, we can think of the cat as being in a superposition of both alive AND dead. We can even observe this effect during the double-slit experiment: if you fire a particle at two slits it will go through both (as if it were a wave) and interfere with itself. However, if you're measuring them as they're going through, they only go through one slit or the other. Here's a video on it: How to explain this mystery has perhaps been the most debated/controversial aspect of physics over the last century. It's given license to a lot of woo-peddlers who like to claim it's proof that reality doesn't exist unless we observe it. Problem is that we are totally unnecessary for such observations. IMO, the most likely explanation is that the superposition is real (ie, all states of the particle exist) and that observation is merely two quantum systems entangling with each other and then decohering into the environment. Every other interpretation creates logical or physical paradoxes and require additional assumptions that are unwarranted by either experiment or math. IE, "go with Occam's Razor until there's evidence for anything else." Thank you. You are actually good at explaining this stuff in a very simple and direct way. I took it to mean something like what you said above, but I was getting confused by how that gets to "reality is consciousness" stuff. I have also heard of the "poison in the box example," which I only sort of understand. Isn't it just that for all we know the cat could be alive or dead? How can we look at it as the cat is both alive AND dead? I have heard it both ways. I understand the former, but the latter seems to be in conflict with logic. The "reality is consciousness" stuff is the woo I was mentioned that's peddled by people who don't understand quantum physics. The thing about Shrodinger's Cat is that it's not meant to be literal. It's just a way of thinking of superposition on a large (rather than quantum) scale. In fact, I think Shrodinger originally proposed it as a criticism against the Copenhagen interpretation of QM. It was meant as a kind of reductio ad absurdum. Most of the early QM physicists thought that there were some hidden variables or something they were missing that would eliminate the apparent absurdity of the superpositioning and measurement problem (and thus dead-alive cats). So most early theorists thought like you did: it's not that the cat was alive AND dead, it's merely that we didn't know which it was until we looked. The problem is that in the 50s John Bell's theorem basically showed that no local hidden variables could account for all the outcomes/predictions of QM, so either quantum physics must be non-local (meaning particles can affect each other at great distances at faster than the speed of light), or those other states are real and continue to exist (the Everett interpretation). I'm very much in the Everett camp. A good in-depth read on this is from Sean Carroll: www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2014/06/30/why-the-many-worlds-formulation-of-quantum-mechanics-is-probably-correct/
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Post by moviemouth on Jan 22, 2021 0:03:24 GMT
Thank you. You are actually good at explaining this stuff in a very simple and direct way. I took it to mean something like what you said above, but I was getting confused by how that gets to "reality is consciousness" stuff. I have also heard of the "poison in the box example," which I only sort of understand. Isn't it just that for all we know the cat could be alive or dead? How can we look at it as the cat is both alive AND dead? I have heard it both ways. I understand the former, but the latter seems to be in conflict with logic. The "reality is consciousness" stuff is the woo I was mentioned that's peddled by people who don't understand quantum physics. The thing about Shrodinger's Cat is that it's not meant to be literal. It's just a way of thinking of superposition on a large (rather than quantum) scale. In fact, I think Shrodinger originally proposed it as a criticism against the Copenhagen interpretation of QM. It was meant as a kind of reductio ad absurdum. Most of the early QM physicists thought that there were some hidden variables or something they were missing that would eliminate the apparent absurdity of the superpositioning and measurement problem (and thus dead-alive cats). So most early theorists thought like you did: it's not that the cat was alive AND dead, it's merely that we didn't know which it was until we looked. The problem is that in the 50s John Bell's theorem basically showed that no local hidden variables could account for all the outcomes/predictions of QM, so either quantum physics must be non-local (meaning particles can affect each other at great distances at faster than the speed of light), or those other states are real and continue to exist (the Everett interpretation). I'm very much in the Everett camp. A good in-depth read on this is from Sean Carroll: www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2014/06/30/why-the-many-worlds-formulation-of-quantum-mechanics-is-probably-correct/ I only started to get into this stuff in the last year or so and with some of it my brain just can't connect the dots. I understand what you are saying about Shrodinger's Cat better now though.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 22, 2021 0:07:30 GMT
The "reality is consciousness" stuff is the woo I was mentioned that's peddled by people who don't understand quantum physics. The thing about Shrodinger's Cat is that it's not meant to be literal. It's just a way of thinking of superposition on a large (rather than quantum) scale. In fact, I think Shrodinger originally proposed it as a criticism against the Copenhagen interpretation of QM. It was meant as a kind of reductio ad absurdum. Most of the early QM physicists thought that there were some hidden variables or something they were missing that would eliminate the apparent absurdity of the superpositioning and measurement problem (and thus dead-alive cats). So most early theorists thought like you did: it's not that the cat was alive AND dead, it's merely that we didn't know which it was until we looked. The problem is that in the 50s John Bell's theorem basically showed that no local hidden variables could account for all the outcomes/predictions of QM, so either quantum physics must be non-local (meaning particles can affect each other at great distances at faster than the speed of light), or those other states are real and continue to exist (the Everett interpretation). I'm very much in the Everett camp. A good in-depth read on this is from Sean Carroll: www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2014/06/30/why-the-many-worlds-formulation-of-quantum-mechanics-is-probably-correct/I only started to get into this stuff in the last year or so. I've been reading/learning about it on-and-off for probably 5+ years now. Despite reading/watching a lot of different physicists discuss it, Sean Carroll is definitely the one that's taught me the most. He just explains things with great clarity and I almost always find his arguments/interpretations convincing, especially because it seems to fit in with my own views of rationality's role in science.
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Post by general313 on Jan 22, 2021 0:11:22 GMT
If evolution has somehow directed us to a perception of bears that is somehow significantly different than what bears actually are, shouldn't we be able to see that difference somewhat by comparing our scientific view of bears with primitive humans' perception of bears? That's of course assuming that science has given us a clearer picture of what bears actually are.
Also, I'm left wondering if the book is some kind of religious apologetic, arguing that belief in God has some kind of survival advantage.
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Post by moviemouth on Jan 22, 2021 0:18:03 GMT
I only started to get into this stuff in the last year or so. I've been reading/learning about it on-and-off for probably 5+ years now. Despite reading/watching a lot of different physicists discuss it, Sean Carroll is definitely the one that's taught me the most. He just explains things with great clarity and I almost always find his arguments/interpretations convincing, especially because it seems to fit in with my own views of rationality's role in science. I am generally fine with just the basics. I understand the basics of evolution for example, but I have a harder time understanding when it gets more in depth about it. The thing with the OP, is that it just stuck out as stuff the writer is just jumping to without any real justification and that is why I felt the need to comment. There are things I will simply dismiss until I personally see a reason to believe them. God being at the top of that list.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 22, 2021 0:20:36 GMT
Also, I'm left wondering if the book is some kind of religious apologetic, arguing that belief in God has some kind of survival advantage. Hell, I'd probably argue a belief in God has some survival advantage(s), I just don't think that's a good argument for God existing or that we can't get those same advantages (or better ones) elsewhere.
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Post by moviemouth on Jan 22, 2021 0:26:00 GMT
Also, I'm left wondering if the book is some kind of religious apologetic, arguing that belief in God has some kind of survival advantage. Hell, I'd probably argue a belief in God has some survival advantage(s), I just don't think that's a good argument for God existing or that we can't get those same advantages (or better ones) elsewhere. This^^^ It is a terrible argument for God existing. Self-deception has survival advantages.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 22, 2021 0:26:55 GMT
I've been reading/learning about it on-and-off for probably 5+ years now. Despite reading/watching a lot of different physicists discuss it, Sean Carroll is definitely the one that's taught me the most. He just explains things with great clarity and I almost always find his arguments/interpretations convincing, especially because it seems to fit in with my own views of rationality's role in science. I am generally fine with just the basics. I understand the basics of evolution for example, but I have a harder time understanding when it gets more in depth about it. The thing with the OP, is that it just stuck out as stuff the writer is just jumping to without any real justification and that is why I felt the need to comment. There are things I will simply dismiss until I personally see a reason to believe them. God being at the top of that list. That's why it's good to have a working in-built BS/woo-detector. One line that's always stuck with me from my years of reading LessWrong was "your strength as a rationalist is being more confused by fiction than reality," basically suggesting that woo tends to confuse because it's innately irrational or doesn't square with certain science or other known facts. Of course, in order to have a good woo-detector it helps if one is really informed about science and rationality to begin with, since leaning on such intuitions (like being confused) isn't a good thing when one is also ignorant about the subject matter. I don't know how relevant any of that is to what you said... I guess your post just kinda inspired that tangent!
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Post by moviemouth on Jan 22, 2021 0:40:02 GMT
I am generally fine with just the basics. I understand the basics of evolution for example, but I have a harder time understanding when it gets more in depth about it. The thing with the OP, is that it just stuck out as stuff the writer is just jumping to without any real justification and that is why I felt the need to comment. There are things I will simply dismiss until I personally see a reason to believe them. God being at the top of that list. That's why it's good to have a working in-built BS/woo-detector. One line that's always stuck with me from my years of reading LessWrong was "your strength as a rationalist is being more confused by fiction than reality," basically suggesting that woo tends to confuse because it's innately irrational or doesn't square with certain science or other known facts. Of course, in order to have a good woo-detector it helps if one is really informed about science and rationality to begin with, since leaning on such intuitions (like being confused) isn't a good thing when one is also ignorant about the subject matter. I don't know how relevant any of that is to what you said... I guess your post just kinda inspired that tangent! I was never informed about rationality besides the obvious and common sense. I was lucky that my parents never told me what to believe, they let me figure it out for myself. Science always made the most sense to me, because it is about using actual intelligent and thought out methods to find the answers and it is seems to be unbiased when applied correctly. It doesn't ask for anything either and doesn't expect you to believe it "just because." Science has proven itself time and time again. I just anthropomorphised the scientific method.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 22, 2021 12:03:52 GMT
It just is. The idea is consciousness is reality and so must exist. That doesn't make sense is what I am saying. What definition of consciousness is being used here? By consciousness it basically means your thoughts, feelings and perceptions. These kind of views in modern times tend to come from Descartes. Descartes found he could doubt the physical world and the contents of his own perceptions but he could not doubt that he was a thinking thing, because to doubt was to think. Therefore for Descartes thought/consciousness is the foundation for establishing what reality is. A while later, Kant argued that reality is essentially divided into two worlds - the phenomenal world, which is how things appear to our senses, and the noumenal world, which is how things actually are. He argued that empiricism can only really tell us about the phenomenal and that the noumenal was closed off to us - we speculate as to what it contained but we could never verify if we were right. The phenomenal is of course fully dependent on consciousness. From the late 19th Century, physicalism became the dominant metaphysics in philosophy - the idea that everything, consciousness included, is ultimately physical in nature. It was also believed that empiricism was a good guide to how things actually are and so Kant's phenomenal/noumenal distinction was largely rejected. The major push-back against physicalism arose with philosophers like Thomas Nagel and David Chalmers developing the 'hard problem of consciousness' - since consciousness is essentially subjective, there is no objective scientific test which could demonstrate what physical element, if any, gives rise to the subjective elements of consciousness. There have been various responses to this hard problem, such as: dismissing these subjective elements of consciousness as worth consideration; assuming that subjectivity is simply a feature of a certain configuration of certain physical components, in the same way that 'slipperiness' is a feature of frozen water molecules; declaring the whole thing unsolvable; reinvigorating dualism; strange ideas like panpsychism and neutral monism; and arguing that the subjective form of consciousness is the only reality. Hoffman casts doubt on physicalist responses to the hard problem of consciousness - since our understanding of the physical comes from our own perceptions, and natural selection would cause our perceptions to favour fitness over truth, we cannot rely on that understanding - all we have is our consciousness and its perceptions. So we're back at Kant. However, unlike Kant, Hoffman proposes forgetting about the noumenal entirely - if there is an underlying reality it's inaccessible to us, Occam's Razor suggests we should just discard it and say the phenomenal is all there is. You do though presumably have no problem assuming the physical is just "out there"? With any attempt to define reality, there needs to be at least one thing that simply just is. Hoffman is weird because he assumes that this is consciousness rather than the physical which is the common sense view, but he makes no greater a leap in doing so.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 22, 2021 12:31:32 GMT
If evolution has somehow directed us to a perception of bears that is somehow significantly different than what bears actually are, shouldn't we be able to see that difference somewhat by comparing our scientific view of bears with primitive humans' perception of bears? Not really. For a start, you can't access the perceptions of primitive humans. Even if you relied on things like cave paintings, you would be comparing your perceptions of the cave paintings with your own perceptions of bears. Plus primitive humans wouldn't be all that different biologically from modern humans anyway. He never makes that argument. He does mention a God of sorts as a brief aside in his final chapter. His argument is that if interaction between consciousnesses increases the individual consciousness, this process could go on indefinitely to generate a much greater consciousness which would be God. But this is very much a pantheistic conception of God, a sum of individual consciousnesses in interaction with one another rather than a distinct God.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 22, 2021 18:07:22 GMT
The problem is that in the 50s John Bell's theorem basically showed that no local hidden variables could account for all the outcomes/predictions of QM, so either quantum physics must be non-local (meaning particles can affect each other at great distances at faster than the speed of light), or those other states are real and continue to exist (the Everett interpretation). Eva, is there a book or website you'd recommend (preferably one aimed at the layman/dummy) that sets out the implications of Bell's theorem and the merits and demerits of each school of interpretation?
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