|
Post by Prime etc. on Jan 22, 2021 18:08:26 GMT
I read a book by Morris Berman--the Re-enchantment of the World and he kind of did the same thing--he laid out an interesting argument that materialism was too narrow-minded--used an example of how we can see a drawing that looks like 2 different things at the same time--but then he got really weird I don't think he had a good ending for the theories.
The ex KGB guy Yuri Bezmenov said that Eastern philosophy like transcendental meditation was tailor made for social subversion--goes hand in hand with the idea that there's no morality, there's no Natural order or norms...He said it's the type of thing they'd have used to screw around with a society's social cohesion.
The old saying that an illiterate farmer in the Middle Ages had a better grasp on reality than a modern man because he would go by his natural senses, while the modern man goes by what authority tells him.
|
|
|
Post by general313 on Jan 22, 2021 18:43:08 GMT
If evolution has somehow directed us to a perception of bears that is somehow significantly different than what bears actually are, shouldn't we be able to see that difference somewhat by comparing our scientific view of bears with primitive humans' perception of bears? Not really. For a start, you can't access the perceptions of primitive humans. Even if you relied on things like cave paintings, you would be comparing your perceptions of the cave paintings with your own perceptions of bears. Plus primitive humans wouldn't be all that different biologically from modern humans anyway. Surely we could find some Trump supporters who speak English. We could interview them. Kidding aside, couldn't we take ancient misconceptions about life and the earth as a guide to how primitive humans preceived animals? Also, couldn't examining a child's view of animals give some clue to human development through evolution? If not, doesn't that put "the Case" beyond the purview of science? Is that the goal of the author, to escape science?
|
|
|
Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 22, 2021 20:20:37 GMT
The problem is that in the 50s John Bell's theorem basically showed that no local hidden variables could account for all the outcomes/predictions of QM, so either quantum physics must be non-local (meaning particles can affect each other at great distances at faster than the speed of light), or those other states are real and continue to exist (the Everett interpretation). Eva, is there a book or website you'd recommend (preferably one aimed at the layman/dummy) that sets out the implications of Bell's theorem and the merits and demerits of each school of interpretation? Beyond the videos and posts I've seen/read from Sean Carroll, most everything else I've read/watched on the subject is kinda lost in the mind-soup of time by now. I do know that Stanford's Online Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a page on it: plato.stanford.edu/entries/bell-theorem/ Though much of that page speaks of the maths/proofs of it and the various experiments confirming it and those closing the possible loopholes, if you go to the section on "Philosophical/Metaphysical Implications" it goes over some of the possible interpretative paths one can take from what Bell says. One of the best, most concise explanations I've ever read regarding the various QM interpretations is that, given the current state of information, we either have to sacrifice locality (Bohm, Copenhagen, et al.), determinacy (Copenhagen, Objective Collapse, et al.), realism (Copenhagen, QBism, et al.) or definiteness (Everett; "definiteness" referring to the source of the probabilities of QM given the Born Rule). Ideally we'd want all of those those things, at least to be in accordance with Occam and to have the best fit for the evidence.
|
|
The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,708
Likes: 1,348
|
Post by The Lost One on Jan 22, 2021 20:24:52 GMT
Also, couldn't examining a child's view of animals give some clue to human development through evolution? I'm not sure what you're proposing would work - is the development of a child's mind to an adult's analogous to the development of a proto-human's mind to that of a human? I don't know but I doubt it. He does though give examples of how animals perceive things differently from humans - eg a particular fly that mistakes beer bottles for a mate because it meets the visual cues the fly has evolved to look for. However since we have evolved differently, we see the difference.
|
|
|
Post by moviemouth on Jan 22, 2021 23:15:16 GMT
That doesn't make sense is what I am saying. What definition of consciousness is being used here? By consciousness it basically means your thoughts, feelings and perceptions. These kind of views in modern times tend to come from Descartes. Descartes found he could doubt the physical world and the contents of his own perceptions but he could not doubt that he was a thinking thing, because to doubt was to think. Therefore for Descartes thought/consciousness is the foundation for establishing what reality is. A while later, Kant argued that reality is essentially divided into two worlds - the phenomenal world, which is how things appear to our senses, and the noumenal world, which is how things actually are. He argued that empiricism can only really tell us about the phenomenal and that the noumenal was closed off to us - we speculate as to what it contained but we could never verify if we were right. The phenomenal is of course fully dependent on consciousness. From the late 19th Century, physicalism became the dominant metaphysics in philosophy - the idea that everything, consciousness included, is ultimately physical in nature. It was also believed that empiricism was a good guide to how things actually are and so Kant's phenomenal/noumenal distinction was largely rejected. The major push-back against physicalism arose with philosophers like Thomas Nagel and David Chalmers developing the 'hard problem of consciousness' - since consciousness is essentially subjective, there is no objective scientific test which could demonstrate what physical element, if any, gives rise to the subjective elements of consciousness. There have been various responses to this hard problem, such as: dismissing these subjective elements of consciousness as worth consideration; assuming that subjectivity is simply a feature of a certain configuration of certain physical components, in the same way that 'slipperiness' is a feature of frozen water molecules; declaring the whole thing unsolvable; reinvigorating dualism; strange ideas like panpsychism and neutral monism; and arguing that the subjective form of consciousness is the only reality. Hoffman casts doubt on physicalist responses to the hard problem of consciousness - since our understanding of the physical comes from our own perceptions, and natural selection would cause our perceptions to favour fitness over truth, we cannot rely on that understanding - all we have is our consciousness and its perceptions. So we're back at Kant. However, unlike Kant, Hoffman proposes forgetting about the noumenal entirely - if there is an underlying reality it's inaccessible to us, Occam's Razor suggests we should just discard it and say the phenomenal is all there is. You do though presumably have no problem assuming the physical is just "out there"? With any attempt to define reality, there needs to be at least one thing that simply just is. Hoffman is weird because he assumes that this is consciousness rather than the physical which is the common sense view, but he makes no greater a leap in doing so. That is because our senses and the information tell us that the physical exists outside of our own minds. I am sure there are much smarter people then me who know the argument better. The kind of deep philosophy in the OP is just mental masturbation. Why not just go with the "maybe I am God and am the creator of my own world?"
|
|
The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,708
Likes: 1,348
|
Post by The Lost One on Jan 22, 2021 23:26:38 GMT
That is because our senses and the information tell us that the physical exists outside of our own minds. Do they?
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 22, 2021 23:29:23 GMT
That is because our senses and the information tell us that the physical exists outside of our own minds. Do they? If you believe in 'history' they must. If you believe in evolution...they must.
|
|
The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,708
Likes: 1,348
|
Post by The Lost One on Jan 22, 2021 23:32:44 GMT
If you believe in 'history' they must. If you believe in evolution...they must. Why?
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 22, 2021 23:36:50 GMT
If you believe in 'history' they must. If you believe in evolution...they must. Why? Because of the steadyness of progression. There must be the physicality of these things that are outside of an individual consciousness to grow change mutate build on and exist in their own time and reproduce.
|
|
|
Post by moviemouth on Jan 22, 2021 23:37:31 GMT
That is because our senses and the information tell us that the physical exists outside of our own minds. Do they? Yes, which is why almost every human being assumes that there is a physical reality that there consciousness is reacting to. That seems to be what most people do agree on. The argument is whether this physical reality is all there is. I am splitting this into 2 things - the reality outside of our minds and our consciousness. Most evolutionary biologists I assume think that consciousness is something that is produced by the brain. The brain is something that was produced by the physical reality, which was there before consciousness ever was.
|
|
|
Post by moviemouth on Jan 22, 2021 23:43:57 GMT
Because of the steadyness of progression. There must be the physicality of these things that are outside of an individual consciousness to grow change mutate build on and exist in their own time and reproduce. When we are born we experience a physical reality and react to it. All the evidence points to there being a physical reality. This is the base assumption. It is necessary. In order for us to believe anything else, there needs to be absolute proof and good arguments. I have seen interesting arguments and the ideas are something I had thought about before, but I have yet to see anything besides speculation. That consciousness IS Simulation theory God Hard solipsism There needs to be hard evidence for anybody to give these the time of day.
|
|
The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,708
Likes: 1,348
|
Post by The Lost One on Jan 22, 2021 23:47:38 GMT
Because of the steadyness of progression. There must be the physicality of these things that are outside of an individual consciousness to grow change mutate build on and exist in their own time and reproduce. One though could explain such things in idealistic terms if one really put one's mind to it. One could say that what grows, changes and mutates are minds. Extremely basic minds have gradually become more complex ones. The fossil record and other evidence of evolution are perceptions that reveal this evolution of mind to us. Personally, I think taking such a stance is too much of a headache to really bother with when accepting the physical exists is so much more intuitive, but I don't think evolution contradicts subjective idealism.
|
|
The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,708
Likes: 1,348
|
Post by The Lost One on Jan 22, 2021 23:52:26 GMT
Yes, which is why almost every human being assumes that there is a physical reality that there consciousness is reacting to. That seems to be what most people do agree on. The argument is whether this physical reality is all there is. I am splitting this into 2 things - the reality outside of our minds and our consciousness. Most evolutionary biologists I assume think that consciousness is something that is produced by the brain. The brain is something that was produced by the physical reality, which was there before consciousness ever was. I don't disagree with any of this, but none of it is evidence that the physical actually exists.
|
|
The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,708
Likes: 1,348
|
Post by The Lost One on Jan 22, 2021 23:55:57 GMT
Because of the steadyness of progression. There must be the physicality of these things that are outside of an individual consciousness to grow change mutate build on and exist in their own time and reproduce. When we are born we experience a physical reality and react to it. All the evidence points to there being a physical reality. We experience perceptions. It's intuitive to assume that we are perceiving some underlying substance, but intuition is not evidence.
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 22, 2021 23:58:29 GMT
Because of the steadyness of progression. There must be the physicality of these things that are outside of an individual consciousness to grow change mutate build on and exist in their own time and reproduce. One though could explain such things in idealistic terms if one really put one's mind to it. One could say that what grows, changes and mutates are minds. Extremely basic minds have gradually become more complex ones. The fossil record and other evidence of evolution are perceptions that reveal this evolution of mind to us. Personally, I think taking such a stance is too much of a headache to really bother with when accepting the physical exists is so much more intuitive, but I don't think evolution contradicts subjective idealism. You see, I keep mentioning this and you don't take any notice. This whole argument presumes that every living thing has a 'mind' capable of something called consciousess even pre-conciousness so it can process the external physical stimulii. It doesn't. As I said before this whole argument is anthropomorphic and placing human capabilites on first organisms in the evolutionary scale that just don't and can't exist.
|
|
The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,708
Likes: 1,348
|
Post by The Lost One on Jan 23, 2021 0:06:59 GMT
One though could explain such things in idealistic terms if one really put one's mind to it. One could say that what grows, changes and mutates are minds. Extremely basic minds have gradually become more complex ones. The fossil record and other evidence of evolution are perceptions that reveal this evolution of mind to us. Personally, I think taking such a stance is too much of a headache to really bother with when accepting the physical exists is so much more intuitive, but I don't think evolution contradicts subjective idealism. As I said before this whole argument is anthropomorphic and placing human capabilites on first organisms in the evolutionary scale that just don't and can't exist. In that case though, the idealist simply denies that these non-mental creatures exist beyond our perception of them. You're still not presenting evidence against idealism - you're assuming a physicalist interpretation of phenomena before you look at the evidence.
|
|
The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,708
Likes: 1,348
|
Post by The Lost One on Jan 23, 2021 0:19:44 GMT
|
|
|
Post by goz on Jan 23, 2021 4:42:04 GMT
That's a lot of words for claiming that Hoffman 's book and thoughts are an interesting, unrealistic mish mash of other philospher's theories that fail because he fails to understand early evolutionary theory fact and practice, amongst other things.
|
|
|
Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 23, 2021 6:28:27 GMT
The "reality is consciousness" stuff is the woo I was mentioned that's peddled by people who don't understand quantum physics.
The thing about Shrodinger's Cat is that it's not meant to be literal. It's just a way of thinking of superposition on a large (rather than quantum) scale. In fact, I think Shrodinger originally proposed it as a criticism against the Copenhagen interpretation of QM. It was meant as a kind of reductio ad absurdum. Most of the early QM physicists thought that there were some hidden variables or something they were missing that would eliminate the apparent absurdity of the superpositioning and measurement problem (and thus dead-alive cats). So most early theorists thought like you did: it's not that the cat was alive AND dead, it's merely that we didn't know which it was until we looked. The problem is that in the 50s John Bell's theorem basically showed that no local hidden variables could account for all the outcomes/predictions of QM, so either quantum physics must be non-local (meaning particles can affect each other at great distances at faster than the speed of light), or those other states are real and continue to exist (the Everett interpretation). I'm very much in the Everett camp. A good in-depth read on this is from Sean Carroll: www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2014/06/30/why-the-many-worlds-formulation-of-quantum-mechanics-is-probably-correct/ And the physicists know what quantum physics is? They know enough to debunk the pure-woo claims, yes. A lot of physicists don't know (and don't care) about all the philosophical issues surrounding QM, but as far as understanding the math and the models they understand it far better than anyone else.
|
|
|
Post by Eva Yojimbo on Jan 23, 2021 7:27:52 GMT
They know enough to debunk the pure-woo claims, yes. A lot of physicists don't know (and don't care) about all the philosophical issues surrounding QM, but as far as understanding the math and the models they understand it far better than anyone else. What is a current woo-claim they've debunked? Crap like Chopra's "quantum mysticism" for one. Of course, to debunk something it has to be scientifically testable to begin with, and BS like Chopra's isn't. Better just to call it woo or pseudoscience, and we can ignore it for the same reason we ignore the idea of extra-dimensional unicorns.
|
|