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Post by hi224 on Mar 1, 2021 5:50:50 GMT
would that have brought upon the very complete end regarding Nazism?.
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Post by Winter_King on Mar 1, 2021 10:49:59 GMT
The July plot conspirators weren't freedom loving Germans but aristocratic conservatives who saw that Germany's defeat was inevitable. They basically wanted to replace Hitler and continue an authoritarian government probably more in line with the Imperial Germany of the past. Their plan was to make peace with the Western powers but they still wanted to keep the territory gained in the east.
I think by that point, the Big Three, had already decided that Germany needed to surrender unconditionally so it's really a question if the the conspirators would've accepted that or would remain fighting.
Of course this is assuming that not only the plot to kill Hitler works, but that the conspirators take control of the German government. Removing Hitler could've left Nazi Germany in the hands of Göering or Himmler.
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Post by politicidal on Mar 1, 2021 17:22:31 GMT
The July plot conspirators weren't freedom loving Germans but aristocratic conservatives who saw that Germany's defeat was inevitable. They basically wanted to replace Hitler and continue an authoritarian government probably more in line with the Imperial Germany of the past. Their plan was to make peace with the Western powers but they still wanted to keep the territory gained in the east. I think by that point, the Big Three, had already decided that Germany needed to surrender unconditionally so it's really a question if the the conspirators would've accepted that or would remain fighting. Of course this is assuming that not only the plot to kill Hitler works, but that the conspirators take control of the German government. Removing Hitler could've left Nazi Germany in the hands of Göering or Himmler. I wonder if Ludwig Beck ever gave it thought that either one would just kill him and take over?
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Post by hi224 on Mar 1, 2021 18:35:52 GMT
The July plot conspirators weren't freedom loving Germans but aristocratic conservatives who saw that Germany's defeat was inevitable. They basically wanted to replace Hitler and continue an authoritarian government probably more in line with the Imperial Germany of the past. Their plan was to make peace with the Western powers but they still wanted to keep the territory gained in the east. I think by that point, the Big Three, had already decided that Germany needed to surrender unconditionally so it's really a question if the the conspirators would've accepted that or would remain fighting. Of course this is assuming that not only the plot to kill Hitler works, but that the conspirators take control of the German government. Removing Hitler could've left Nazi Germany in the hands of Göering or Himmler. Do you feel Berlin Wall would still be as we know it?.
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Post by mikef6 on Mar 1, 2021 19:16:56 GMT
lets say Hitler dies in his final assassination attempt
[in unison] "Hitler dies in his final assassination attempt"
And now, lets say the generals take control of the country
[in unison] "The generals take control of the country."
(Joke stolen from "Police Squad")
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Mar 2, 2021 11:34:09 GMT
The July 20th Plotters were somewhat delusional. They believed that once they took over, they could contact the Allies, the Allies would say "Thanks for doing the heavy lifting" and the war would be over. They honestly believed that the US, UK, USSR et al would go home and Germany would be spared occupation. Germany could try their own war criminals and go back to the 1934 borders, maybe even keeping Austria. But the Unconditional Surrender was in force for whoever was running Germany. They had learned one lesson from the end of The Great War. Would Germany have gone on fighting, probably not.
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Post by hi224 on Mar 2, 2021 15:21:34 GMT
The July 20th Plotters were somewhat delusional. They believed that once they took over, they could contact the Allies, the Allies would say "Thanks for doing the heavy lifting" and the war would be over. They honestly believed that the US, UK, USSR et al would go home and Germany would be spared occupation. Germany could try their own war criminals and go back to the 1934 borders, maybe even keeping Austria. But the Unconditional Surrender was in force for whoever was running Germany. They had learned one lesson from the end of The Great War. Would Germany have gone on fighting, probably not. so we'd still have Berlin Wall?.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Mar 2, 2021 16:38:06 GMT
The July 20th Plotters were somewhat delusional. They believed that once they took over, they could contact the Allies, the Allies would say "Thanks for doing the heavy lifting" and the war would be over. They honestly believed that the US, UK, USSR et al would go home and Germany would be spared occupation. Germany could try their own war criminals and go back to the 1934 borders, maybe even keeping Austria. But the Unconditional Surrender was in force for whoever was running Germany. They had learned one lesson from the end of The Great War. Would Germany have gone on fighting, probably not. so we'd still have Berlin Wall?. Probably The Allies would still occupy Germany and Berlin
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Post by gadreel on Mar 24, 2021 21:14:25 GMT
The July 20th Plotters were somewhat delusional. They believed that once they took over, they could contact the Allies, the Allies would say "Thanks for doing the heavy lifting" and the war would be over. They honestly believed that the US, UK, USSR et al would go home and Germany would be spared occupation. Germany could try their own war criminals and go back to the 1934 borders, maybe even keeping Austria. But the Unconditional Surrender was in force for whoever was running Germany. They had learned one lesson from the end of The Great War. Would Germany have gone on fighting, probably not. so we'd still have Berlin Wall?. The Berlin wall was more contingent on the rate of advance of the red army than the defeat of Germany, by july 20 the red army had already broken into Poland and the allies had just about made caen (from memory), if Hitler had died the most likely scenario is some kind of peace treaty, extremely unlikely as goodman has said, but lets say that this was pitched well at the allies, then they could conceivably accept the surrender of germany and then gun to occupy germany, meaning no east and west germany, although the chances of this causing a hot war between the allies and the soviets is pretty high (see operation unthinkable). This is also the unconditional surrender option, the Germans wanted to avoid surrender to the red army.
In that scenario the berlin wall could well have been the paris wall, or depending on how well the allies did, the Krakow wall.
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