It's the Christian thing to do

That statement is absolutely correct... sadly.

I'm back to considering which more secular country to move to when this becomes a theocracy.

You don't fancy living in Gilead?

They have policies already thought out for woman who don't know their place you know...

More secular does not mean more free. Just look at China. The amount of control the atheistic Chinese government has over the populace is terrifying. They have surveillance cameras and military police all over the place, and I've read that they'll soon begin using facial recognition software to read people's emotions. People are rightly afraid to speak out, because they will be imprisoned and disappeared. It's by far the most repressive government of any country I've ever been to. Very disturbing, to say the least.

Sure, no problem.  But you left out the next sentence about that being human nature.

Here is a quote that might surprise you:


Yes, Martin Luther, leader of the Protestant movement against the Catholic Church.  Not the egalitarian sort of message that Jesus preached.

Theoretically, here in the USA, we have freedom of speech, freedom of belief, freedom of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness and other freedoms.  But just about every religion I've come across has a 'strong leader' guy that uses followers to act out some sort of agenda that usually benefits that leader with either money or power.

The Evangelicals, to further their control over women by restricting reproduction choices for women, chose, of all people, Donald Trump as their 'strong leader'.  Never mind that Trump is clearly one of the most un-Christian people on the planet, though, if you talk to paulslaugh , he can explain to you why modern day Christianity is so unlike the things that Jesus taught, and why the definition of Christianity is an illusive thing.  But the Evangelicals knew Trump would pack the Supreme Court with people opposed to abortion. Power. Control.

But any ideology can be perverted, by slow brain-washing techniques.  Any ideological teachings can be cherry-picked to justify a behavior.  And any group can be manipulated by a leader to become adversarial to an 'other', an outsider.  Our survival instinct says to be wary of others, they might be dangerous.  We survived as tribes as we evolved, and eventually, religion helped to 'demonize' others, outsiders, as a threat to survival. The White Supremacists have convinced themselves that any 'other' person, of different race or culture, is a threat to their existence.  Therefore, they try to demonize those others and deny them their rights under the Constitution.  They benefit, the 'others' lose.

I haven't quite figured out the science-deniers' angle, since science can save lives that faith cannot. Denial of vaccinations is going to limit their survival; organ transplants, blood transfusions, even use of antibiotics is against their ideology, but ensures that fewer of them survive to reproduce.  Go figure.

One thing you must admit, the divisive extremism in this country is at an all-time high.  It seems we cannot co-exist; honor our own freedoms, yet not let others have those same freedoms.

To quote a bumper sticker, lol...
Did any of this help answer your question?  I am always willing to discuss further.  The RFS board is pretty quiet right now, you might want to post your question there. 

Edit: oops. mea culpa, this is the RFS board... senior moment!

MLK was one of the shining, glowing examples of true equality.  We need another like him right now.

Yeah, I think all anti-abortion people are religious nutbags, at least in my personal experience.

YOU need to provide a new translation of the Bible, with that Jesus quote in red! 

Valid points.  But we are in a nation that was founded on the separation of church and state.  

You and I see differently on the abortion issue.  You see it as saving innocents.  I see it as another child brought into this world that wasn't wanted, might possibly be abused by bad parents, in a country that doesn't have enough of a social support system to make that child's life livable. That child very well may suffer.  

To parallel, in animal rescue, I see the suffering of animals that are not cared for.  If everyone would humanely spay or neuter their pets, we wouldn't see so many suffering animals that are abandoned, hungry and left to die.  Every pet born would be wanted.  Every child born should be wanted.  If they aren't, what kind of life are they going to have?

The Religious Right wants to restrict birth control, sex education and abortion, when what we need is for kids to be educated about reproduction, and to prevent pregnancy if they aren't ready to have a baby.  Education would lessen the need for abortion, except in cases of rape, incest and catastrophic birth defects.  Don't tell kids to 'just don't do it', give them the education to make responsible decisions on their own.  And increase social programs to help those who end up being parents when they aren't really ready.  

I made that educated decision for myself.  As a teen, with overly religious parents who were worried about SIN!  Before I ever began to be 'active', I read up on birth control, used it when the time came, and never had to even consider abortion.  Birth control worked.  My parents were blissfully unaware of my 'activity' until my future husband and I decided to live together before marriage.  They only had to fret for a year, he and I married, but neither he nor I wanted children.  He had a vasectomy before we ever met.  No unwanted children, and no abortion needed. And no child had to suffer for the parents' mistakes.

There is an ever-growing problem of child abuse in this country, and I know people who literally wish they had never been born.  There are some truly horrible stories out there.

Just food for thought.

Oh, I rarely argue with them, I may post my views here, but remain safely anonymous.

Wouldn't it be better to have prevented that innocent human life in the first place, if it wasn't wanted?

To be honest, if some miracle occurred (and it would have to be a miracle) and I found myself pregnant, I would carry the fetus until birth, then give the baby up for adoption.  I respect life so much that I choose not to eat meat.  I work to rescue animals that are hungry or abused or are taken from their mothers and abandoned after birth.  I wish there could be a world where every life was respected and had quality, but that isn't the real world. We have to work with things the way they are, now, and work towards a better reality for the future.

Every baby kitten that I bottle-feed, until they are old enough to be adopted into families that want them, is one that I made a difference to.  I can't save them all, but I made a difference to that one.

Yes, it is a hot-button topic.  Everyone has their own personal viewpoint. And it is the innocent human life that lives or dies, regardless of others' feelings or philosophical views.  People should think about that more seriously when making decisions about their behavior.  Actions have consequences.

But not all women said "yes" to the man that impregnated her.  What about her life?

I see your point, but the clinic that handles their adoption screens potential adopters, as do most shelters and rescue groups.  And these adopters clearly want these kittens, and they pay an adoption fee which covers first shots and a spay/neuter.  So the risk of abuse is far less than if they were being given away to just anybody.  The adopter has already confirmed their commitment by parting with a considerable amount of money, and ensuring that their pet will not contribute to the pet overpopulation problem.

About the mother's life/baby's life... the mother's life does take precedence, as she is a fully-developed sentient being, capable of living on her own.  The developing embryo, in the early stages, is not sentient yet and cannot exist without the mother.  Until brain activity begins, the embryo would not be aware of its own existence, nor would it register pain.

Just a fleeting thought... do you remember the poster miccee, who advocated that no humans should reproduce because life always carries with it the threat of suffering?  I can't remember what his particular philosophy was called... he was an extreme of the 'no suffering' concept.  He intentionally left this board because almost no one wanted to converse with him. He and Cupcake, I think, used to go round and round for pages of posts.

And, it is past my bedtime!  We can continue tomorrow if you like...