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Post by gadreel on Mar 30, 2021 0:21:57 GMT
Gosh. "He" is me. I have a Masters Degree in English. I'm also a published writer, with work in the Sydney Morning Herald, Slate, Huffington Post and Bloomberg. So, what exactly made you think I write and argue "like someone with no formal education"? Details please. I'm not your editor, if you're happy with it then more power to you. I was really interested in this exchange, tell me please what formal qualifications allow you to render this judgement?
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Post by gadreel on Mar 30, 2021 0:42:53 GMT
Establishing the historical existence of Jesus does not establish his divinity or the Christian’s right to establish a government, either peaceful or violently, based on his divine teachings. Even if a person who generally fits the biblical description of the 1st century Jewish prophet was a real historical individual, there are a lot of historical inaccuracies written about him in the Bible considered as holy facts by the faithful, like the slaughter of the first born male babies ordered by Herod, that just ain’t so. Anything that egregious and ordered by a king would have certainly been recorded elsewhere. By Jesus’ era, written reports about such things were common, so there is no reason to accept the Slaughter of the Innocents as an historical fact. Ancient Judea was not a backwater, but a thriving part of the young Roman Empire with lots of literate people, not just Jews, living there. And they wrote shit down. Jesus was a contemporary of the great rabbis Hillel and Shammai and they are even referenced in the gospels. The historian Philo was also a contemporary and lived in nearby Egypt and even he only references Jesus obliquely. But none of them talk about the events surrounding Jesus’ life. I would be interested how much we have lost, like we have the gospels, but why is there not a mundane account as you say it seems like there would be. I am firmly in the camp of person who we called jesus exists, but after the fact many incorrect things were attributed to him, but it seems like we are missing the mundane gospels. and on the third day, Jesus washed his hair cos he met a chick and verily did want a date. you know?
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timoneill
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Post by timoneill on Mar 30, 2021 0:51:20 GMT
there are a lot of historical inaccuracies written about him in the Bible considered as holy facts by the faithful, like the slaughter of the first born male babies ordered by Herod, that just ain’t so. Anything that egregious and ordered by a king would have certainly been recorded elsewhere. Possibly. But we really only have one source for pretty much everything we know about Herod - Josephus' Antiquities. That's about it, apart from some more general references to him and some accounts of his interactions with the Roman Empire in Tacitus and Suetonius etc. On things like this, there's Josephus. Josephus doesn't mention this incident, which is one of several reasons to think it didn't actually happen. But you shouldn't overstate how many potential sources we have - they are actually very few. See above. Written reports about such things in Judea are few. Just one source for most of what we know in this period - Josephus. To the Greeks and Romans, it was a backwater. And since most of our sources for this period are by Greeks and Romans, we have few sources which tell us anything about Judea. If we didn't have Josephus, we'd have almost nothing. Yes. Except almost none of that "shit" survives. Again, our surviving sources are few. No, they lived in the previous generation. No, neither are mentioned in the gospels. He doesn't reference Jesus at all. No contemporary source does. But, as I keep noting, we have so few sources this is not surprising.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 30, 2021 1:00:48 GMT
I would be interested how much we have lost, like we have the gospels, but why is there not a mundane account as you say it seems like there would be. I am firmly in the camp of person who we called jesus exists, but after the fact many incorrect things were attributed to him, but it seems like we are missing the mundane gospels. and on the third day, Jesus washed his hair cos he met a chick and verily did want a date. you know? Watch this documentary when you get a chance. The theory discussed in it has been around a long time, but has generally been kept to the back of biblical scholarship. It makes plausible sense if we keep in mind people then are little different than people now. I must tell you I really want to watch that, but at an hour 46 I must fear it will be low on my list, I am on practicum as well as raising a daughter, I got 10 minutes for a quick cone before bed to myself yesterday But I will try to remember to come back.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 30, 2021 1:02:20 GMT
I would be interested how much we have lost, like we have the gospels, but why is there not a mundane account as you say it seems like there would be. I am firmly in the camp of person who we called jesus exists, but after the fact many incorrect things were attributed to him, but it seems like we are missing the mundane gospels. and on the third day, Jesus washed his hair cos he met a chick and verily did want a date. you know? Watch this documentary when you get a chance. The theory discussed in it has been around a long time, but has generally been kept to the back of biblical scholarship. It makes plausible sense if we keep in mind people then are little different than people now. But already I do love that every single image of Jesus, is sexy white Jesus. No wonder he is famous, he would have stood out like a pork stall at a bah mitzvah in 1st century Palestine.
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2021 1:10:24 GMT
Watch this documentary when you get a chance. The theory discussed in it has been around a long time, but has generally been kept to the back of biblical scholarship. It makes plausible sense if we keep in mind people then are little different than people now. But already I do love that every single image of Jesus, is sexy white Jesus. No wonder he is famous, he would have stood out like a pork stall at a bah mitzvah in 1st century Palestine. And he's also always somber and dreary like he's constantly in deep profound thought. The scene in The Passion of the Christ in which he's laughing with his mother stood out to me due to its stark contrast of how he's usually portrayed.
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2021 1:23:35 GMT
And he's also always somber and dreary like he's constantly in deep profound thought. The scene in The Passion of the Christ in which he's laughing with his mother stood out to me due to its stark contrast of how he's usually portrayed. Which is a Hollywood depiction based in part on the religious visions of an 18th century nun. So?
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2021 1:34:25 GMT
So, what? Do you think the movie is a play by play account of the truth? You presume too much. Read what I said again. I'll paste it for you so you don't to have scroll. I'll even highlight the good part: "The scene in The Passion of the Christ in which he's laughing with his mother stood out to me due to its stark contrast of how he's usually portrayed."
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timoneill
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Post by timoneill on Mar 30, 2021 1:51:24 GMT
However look at the nature of the event. If indeed Herod was slaughtering Jewish babies, other Jews living at the time would have mentioned it, don’t you think? Probably. But, as I said, the issue is not how many people at the time would have or would not have mentioned it. The issue is that we have almost no surviving writings about pretty much anything happening in Judea in this period. We have Josephus and ... that's about it. All of our records of Hillel's teachings date to about 150-300 years after his death. And his teachings barely ever touch on any political events from his time, so I can't see why the much later records of his reported teachings would mention this event, even if it did happen. Again, I don't think the "Massacre" thing is historical at all. But what I'm saying is that this "it's not mentioned in any of the sources of the time so it didn't happen" is not a strong argument. This is because we actually have zero sources from the time. None. The only source that covers this period in Judea in any detail is Josephus, writing about a century later. The fact he doesn't mention it is definitely a point against the historicity of the event, but it's not a slam dunk. And the silence of other sources on it is because ... there are no other sources. If Hillel wrote anything we don't have it. And the much, much later reported sayings of Hillel are not about political or historical events anyway Yes. But given that (i) I'm not a Christian and (ii) I'm not doing that, this isn't really relevant as a response to anything I've said. I'm simply noting that you're overstating the sources we have about events in first century Judea. We have almost none.
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2021 1:53:41 GMT
You presume too much. Read what I said again. I'll paste it for you so you don't to have scroll. I'll even highlight the good part: "The scene in The Passion of the Christ in which he's laughing with his mother stood out to me due to its stark contrast of how he's usually portrayed." That’s fine. And we can assume Jesus laughed as much as he wept. He was a human being. So, going against the usual approach to Jesus as a humorless stiff usually seen in biblical movie fare is refreshing. I couldn't have said it better...although I tried. Next time, I'll use the word 'depict' instead of 'portray' and maybe we won't repeat history again. Some people also believe the Zombie Apocalypse is coming. I'm not one of them, but I do love a good zombie flick.
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timoneill
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Post by timoneill on Mar 30, 2021 2:43:16 GMT
We know for a fact Paul of Tarsus wrote a lot about Jesus not more then thirty years after Jesus lived. He doesn’t mention anything about Jesus’ history. No short bio, no nothing. This massacre would certainly be commemorated as Jews make a holiday out of every bad thing that happened to them and would be mentioned somewhere, you’d think. There is no mention of it in the many non-canon 1st gospels accounts like were found a few decades at Nag Hammadi. Paul himself never met the man, but does claim Jesus speaks directly to him in visions. So much of what we think Jesus taught is actually Paul’s opinions. And the Slaughter of the Innocents only appears in one gospel, Matthew, but not mentioned in the others. Why? So the simplest explanation (the the least complicated explanation is usually the correct one) for this absence in other contemporary literature and ignored by Paul himself would be it never happened. I have no idea why you responded to me with this. Again, as I've said several times now "I don't think the "Massacre" thing is historical at all." I don't think it happened. I've simply noted that the argument that "we should find lots of references to it in sources from the time but we don't so it didn't happen" is not a strong argument because we don't have any "sources from the time". We can't find it mentioned in sources we don't have. You've mentioned other later sources which don't mention it. The fact it's only mentioned in gMatt and no other canonical gospel is actually a much stronger argument, though only to an extent. It's a story from the "infancy narratives" about the birth of Jesus and only one other canonical gospel has one of those - gLuke. This is just one of many elements found in the gMatt infancy narrative but not found in gLuke. That's because the infancy narratives in both gospels have almost no overlap. Both seem to be largely theological constructions designed to highlight who and what Jesus was and critical scholars don't take anything much in them as being likely to be historical as a result. The "Massacre" story, therefore, seems to be saying "Jesus was almost killed as a baby by a wicked ruler, just like Moses" and so is presenting him as a new Moses. It's quite likely even the writer of gMatt didn't expect his readers to take the story as something that actually happened. This is why most critical scholars think the story is just a construction, not a record of an actual event. As for why the story isn't the Pauline material, you've answered that yourself - Paul was writing letters about issues in various Jesus sect communities, not writing a biography of Jesus. You're also not correct in stating the story isn't found in any of the non-canonical gospels. it actually features prominently in the Gospel of James and in the Gospel of Pseudo Matthew. But like all those later non-canonical gospels, these are not much use regarding anything historical about Jesus.
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2021 3:22:12 GMT
And what I have pointed out is there is a lot of extant information from the period, namely the New Testament, which only mentions it once. How many do you need? It was only like 10 kids.
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2021 3:43:37 GMT
How many do you need? It was only like 10 kids. From Wikipedia: Byzantine liturgy estimated 14,000 Holy Innocents, while an early Syrian list of saints put the number at 64,000. Coptic sources raised this to 144,000 and placed the event on 29 December.[13] The Catholic Encyclopedia (1907–12) suggested that probably only between six and twenty children were killed in the town, with a dozen or so more in the surrounding areas. So, who knows the number which according to three Christian sources between 6 and 144,000. I stand at zero number of children slaughtered. Maybe the Catholics got this one right and that's why it didn't make biblical headlines.
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timoneill
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Post by timoneill on Mar 30, 2021 3:53:06 GMT
Now, you have above very good explanation as to why this particular story came about. So why you’re arguing against your own thesis, I don’t know. I'm not. I'm pointing out that some of the arguments being presented against the historicity of this story are not actually very solid. Or are based on errors. That still leaves us with perfectly good reasons to conclude the story is not historical. I know. But you said none of the non-canoncial gospels mention the story. This is wrong - two do. Given he was a rather more important figure than some peasant preacher from Galilee, that's not surprising at all.
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2021 3:55:31 GMT
Maybe the Catholics got this one right and that's why it didn't make biblical headlines. Now prove it this event happened beyond what one unknown person wrote down 2,000 years ago. If you want to have faith this massacre happened, go right ahead, but don’t expect it to be accepted as an historical fact. Or rather demand under pain if death it be declared a fact, because your church has a bad history of murdering people with differing opinions much less differing facts. What I said makes sense, and the words of "one unknown person" is more evidence than none at all. I'm not arguing that it really happened or not, but if I had to bet, I'm going with the Catholics. ps. I don't have a church.
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timoneill
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Post by timoneill on Mar 30, 2021 4:03:27 GMT
Given that I'm an atheist, no. Where did you get the idea I'd be a Christian?
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2021 5:30:00 GMT
What I said makes sense, and the words of "one unknown person" is more evidence than none at all. I'm not arguing that it really happened or not, but if I had to bet, I'm going with the Catholics. ps. I don't have a church. Then also consider this story framed to harken the Passover deaths and the blood of a lamb as the antidote against the angel of death was marketing copy written to sell one particular church over another. There were two big churches in competition at the time: Paul’s, in the wider Greco-Roman world, and the family of Jesus church in Jerusalem. The fights between them are documented in the NT itself. Once the Jerusalem church was destroyed, along the rest of the Jews in the city, Paul’s church had the advantage. The one thing we should remember is folks in 1st century Rome Empire are little different than people today. They were not above lying to get at what they thought was the greater good just like they aren’t now. If it was such a big selling point, perhaps there should have been more than just a small blurb in the paper.
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Post by Admin on Mar 30, 2021 6:07:49 GMT
If it was such a big selling point, perhaps there should have been more than just a small blurb in the paper. Hey, Nike sells a million sneakers a day with “just do it.” Somebody, whom we call Matthew, knew his target audience. Even for a small target audience, that was pretty weak. Or maybe, also as your Wiki link suggests, he just got his names crossed. Something about Pharaoh and Moses. At any rate, your contention is that it never happened therefore it was false advertising?
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Post by Sarge on Mar 30, 2021 6:23:27 GMT
I'm not your editor, if you're happy with it then more power to you. Translation: "I made a sneering criticism that I can't back up. I thought I'd get away with it when I thought I was sneering behind your back, so now I have to just pretend my criticism was valid in the hope that no-one notices that it was totally baseless. Time to run away." I'm sorry I hurt your feelings but I do not like the new style of writing (my wife switched careers to become a technical writer and I loathe, loathe, the new style, although it does remind me of authors like Georg Simmel, why say in 10 words what you can say in 50) and your "bury this nonsense" beginning gives off an edgelord vibe rather than historian. And really who is the audience? Persuasive arguments don't work on theists because they accept the irrational as rational and are hardened against reason with fear. You posit it didn't occur to Christians to question the existence of Jesus (or mystical Jesus) but they are conditioned to believe they will suffer eternally for doubt of any kind. Biblical scholars and historians in general already concede Christ likely existed but whether he did or not, nothing changes. Christians today don't follow the teachings of Christ, he's gone from ideology to idol. Christianity here in America has been co-opted by the post WWII fascist remnants that gradually took over our Republican Party. The evidence for a real life Christ is scant but enough that most of us concede there was a radical religious leader at the base of the mythology. Whether you believe he was supernatural will depend in large part on whether you are rational or irrational.
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Post by Cody™ on Mar 30, 2021 7:23:18 GMT
Possibly. But we really only have one source for pretty much everything we know about Herod - Josephus' Antiquities. That's about it, apart from some more general references to him and some accounts of his interactions with the Roman Empire in Tacitus and Suetonius etc. On things like this, there's Josephus. Josephus doesn't mention this incident, which is one of several reasons to think it didn't actually happen. But you shouldn't overstate how many potential sources we have - they are actually very few. See above. Written reports about such things in Judea are few. Just one source for most of what we know in this period - Josephus. To the Greeks and Romans, it was a backwater. And since most of our sources for this period are by Greeks and Romans, we have few sources which tell us anything about Judea. If we didn't have Josephus, we'd have almost nothing. Yes. Except almost none of that "shit" survives. Again, our surviving sources are few. No, they lived in the previous generation. No, neither are mentioned in the gospels. He doesn't reference Jesus at all. No contemporary source does. But, as I keep noting, we have so few sources this is not surprising. However look at the nature of the event. If indeed Herod was slaughtering Jewish babies, other Jews living at the time would have mentioned it, don’t you think? Hillel’s teachings are a big, big part of contemporary Judaism, it’s never mentioned. ; You are using one complication after another to explain why the murder of hundreds of Jewish first born sons happened but not mentioned by someone like Hillel when the biggest holy day in Judaism even in Jesus’ day is Passover. And what was passed over? The firstborn of Egypt who God ordered the Angel of Death to slaughter. I think a thing Christians often do is mistake Hollywood takes on the Bible stories as being accurate in their depictions of life back then. They are generally not accurate. What makes you think it was hundreds of babies?
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