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Post by rizdek on Aug 26, 2021 17:23:43 GMT
I doubt if there's anyone who's such an authority on any subject that there's literally nothing left for them to explore in it, but your personal decisions as to what you choose to leave unexplored are of course yours. But this does point up what I've noticed--that where theism and atheism are concerned, it seems more to tilt towards the godly minded to be indifferent to what atheists have to say than the opposite, whatever their professed reasons for that indifference. As I see it, atheism vs. theism is just the first step in a very long journey. I was an atheist from my late teens to early 20's, and I studied the hard sciences ad nauseam. But even then, I still had premonitions, and that confused me. I usually tried to dismiss them as coincidence and ignored them. But as the years went on, coincidence just didn't cut it anymore. I finally asked Divinity for a sign and got way more than I bargained for. After that, I started tentatively walking down the spiritual path, and only found more and more reasons to believe in something beyond what our primitive senses can perceive. At this point, I couldn't be an atheist even if I wanted to be. I actually stopped actively practicing my spirituality a few years ago, not from lack of faith, but because life was getting so weird that I wasn't sure I could handle it anymore. Too much woo. I find it kind of funny that atheists think that theism prevents people from living life to the fullest. For me, it's quite the opposite. I've taken a hell of a lot of risks in life, just because I know I'll get a heads up if I'm getting myself into danger. People are always amazed by my fearlessness, but you don't need to be very brave if you have an early warning system. I find that spirituality gives life beauty and wonder and meaning, and it helps me appreciate the little things and to take nothing for granted. I also have a pretty epic ghost story that blew my mind into a million pieces. I have so many of my own personal experiences that you could probably argue that I have no faith at all. With respect, I really don't care what atheists think, because I can't just forget decades worth of my own lived experiences that directly contradicts them. Plus, most atheists only seem to want to talk about Christianity, so that doesn't interest me, either. It's not surprising that atheists are more interested in theism than vice versa, because they are still at that first step. Theists have already made that choice, and are walking down a different path. Most of them have no reason to look back. As an atheist, I have never felt like theism prevents someone from living a full life. I never looked at my atheism as a goal to seek, it just sort of happened.
From my POV, I could believe the existence of God could explain someone's premonitions. But it seems to me there could be other explanations. That's not to try to talk anyone out of their theistic belief pr downplay their experiences, but jumping from some unexplained/inexplicable experiences all the way to there being a supreme 'that which nothing can be greater than' being seems a giant...and unnecessary leap. I realize it puts all those in a tidy package, but is it a real package.?
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Post by mystery on Aug 27, 2021 12:46:55 GMT
As I see it, atheism vs. theism is just the first step in a very long journey. I was an atheist from my late teens to early 20's, and I studied the hard sciences ad nauseam. But even then, I still had premonitions, and that confused me. I usually tried to dismiss them as coincidence and ignored them. But as the years went on, coincidence just didn't cut it anymore. I finally asked Divinity for a sign and got way more than I bargained for. After that, I started tentatively walking down the spiritual path, and only found more and more reasons to believe in something beyond what our primitive senses can perceive. At this point, I couldn't be an atheist even if I wanted to be. I actually stopped actively practicing my spirituality a few years ago, not from lack of faith, but because life was getting so weird that I wasn't sure I could handle it anymore. Too much woo. I find it kind of funny that atheists think that theism prevents people from living life to the fullest. For me, it's quite the opposite. I've taken a hell of a lot of risks in life, just because I know I'll get a heads up if I'm getting myself into danger. People are always amazed by my fearlessness, but you don't need to be very brave if you have an early warning system. I find that spirituality gives life beauty and wonder and meaning, and it helps me appreciate the little things and to take nothing for granted. I also have a pretty epic ghost story that blew my mind into a million pieces. I have so many of my own personal experiences that you could probably argue that I have no faith at all. With respect, I really don't care what atheists think, because I can't just forget decades worth of my own lived experiences that directly contradicts them. Plus, most atheists only seem to want to talk about Christianity, so that doesn't interest me, either. It's not surprising that atheists are more interested in theism than vice versa, because they are still at that first step. Theists have already made that choice, and are walking down a different path. Most of them have no reason to look back. As an atheist, I have never felt like theism prevents someone from living a full life. I never looked at my atheism as a goal to seek, it just sort of happened.
From my POV, I could believe the existence of God could explain someone's premonitions. But it seems to me there could be other explanations. That's not to try to talk anyone out of their theistic belief pr downplay their experiences, but jumping from some unexplained/inexplicable experiences all the way to there being a supreme 'that which nothing can be greater than' being seems a giant...and unnecessary leap. I realize it puts all those in a tidy package, but is it a real package.?
I'm curious. How would you explain them? I've ruled out coincidence and good judgment as explanations, because they're often extremely specific and not based on any observable evidence. You could dismiss a few instances as coincidences, but after 5 or 10 or 100 times, coincidence just doesn't really cut it. And for me, there is definitely a spiritual aspect to premonitions. When I'm actively practicing my spirituality, I pick up a lot more premonitions and they come through more clearly than when I'm not. My view of Divinity is quite different than the Christian view of God. I generally don't anthropomorphize it, and I see it something more along the lines of a universal consciousness, or even just lifeforce that exists within all things. When I do trance work, I plug into that, and things tend to get pretty weird. That's why I've taken a break from it. Sometimes, you just don't want to know.
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Post by rizdek on Aug 27, 2021 19:23:46 GMT
As an atheist, I have never felt like theism prevents someone from living a full life. I never looked at my atheism as a goal to seek, it just sort of happened.
From my POV, I could believe the existence of God could explain someone's premonitions. But it seems to me there could be other explanations. That's not to try to talk anyone out of their theistic belief pr downplay their experiences, but jumping from some unexplained/inexplicable experiences all the way to there being a supreme 'that which nothing can be greater than' being seems a giant...and unnecessary leap. I realize it puts all those in a tidy package, but is it a real package.?
I'm curious. How would you explain them? I've ruled out coincidence and good judgment as explanations, because they're often extremely specific and not based on any observable evidence. You could dismiss a few instances as coincidences, but after 5 or 10 or 100 times, coincidence just doesn't really cut it. And for me, there is definitely a spiritual aspect to premonitions. When I'm actively practicing my spirituality, I pick up a lot more premonitions and they come through more clearly than when I'm not. My view of Divinity is quite different than the Christian view of God. I generally don't anthropomorphize it, and I see it something more along the lines of a universal consciousness, or even just lifeforce that exists within all things. When I do trance work, I plug into that, and things tend to get pretty weird. That's why I've taken a break from it. Sometimes, you just don't want to know. First let me be clear, I do not see atheism...or whatever category my world view falls into, as something to aspire to or something I would try to convince someone else of. Second, I am continually processing stories such as yours and others I've heard from credible sources. I will take you at your word. I can't fully explain them (yours and some others) and do not regard them as fantasy. So they remain a quandry although I do have some ideas. I won't pry into the details as it's likely personal. Third, I've thought about this a lot so this is kind of a long rsp. It hinges on my conviction that there is far more to the physical/material world that we humans know or perhaps ever can know. While it is a vague concept, a sort of universal consciousness could fit the bill to explain things that seem beyond what many might call the purely natural although considering/believing something like that likely would not cause me to re-term my world view as theistic. I would, as you, likely refer to it as a from of spiritualism or mysterious. One side track would be that there is no doubt in my mind that there is....people (and many kinds of animals) have conscious/are conscious. It's a no-brainer. So certainly the world, such as it is, does produce/has consciousness. And that poses a mystery...perhaps a bigger mystery than even some of the accounts, like yours, that I hear about. What is consciousness and what brings it about? Sure it seems centered in the brain...but HOW does it form the concept/feeling of 'I-ness' or 'me?' So from that, lets progress to my explanation such as it is. I might look at accounts such as yours (and others) as falling into a category of a person's own special abilities. Take physical and mental capabilities. There are some people I've read about/know/seen who simply have a much greater capacity to do things than me and other run of the mill humans. I am thinking of athletes, musicians and, say, theoretical physicists. Take your super athletes. Sure, they train and exercise for years, but...IMHO, they also start off at a different level than I did or most other people do. Now, for athletic prowess, the explanation often seems fairly straight forward...bigger muscles, faster reflexes, longer bones, and other physical differences paint the backdrop for a super athlete. But overall, they are simply more innately gifted than the rest of us from the beginning. Another category might be gifted musicians. Sure, they spend thousands of hours honing their skills, but I am convinced and own to the truth that regardless of how many hours and years I practice I would NEVER be a proficient. Again, part can be explained by looking at their body/physical capabilities, but not all of it. They have a gift that goes deeper than coordination and reflexes. Then on to, say, theoretical physicists, the Einsteins and Hawkings of the world. Sure they put years of study into learning facts, details and methods to be where they are. But I am convinced there are some people who are, for want of a better phrase, in a category by themselves, thinking wise. As I said, when we see someone with super physical abilities, it is somewhat obvious why. When we look at someone who has super thinking abilities, I think we're less able to 'see' what the differences are in why they can think at the levels they do. Sure we can attribute it generally to their brain working better...better synapse connections...the parts of their brains that lend to such detailed thinking are better. One way to explain these exceptional people would be to simply say there is 'the divine' and that's how Einstein figured out relativity. I believe one can simply look to the individual coupled with the all-mysterious consciousness and see that as why they are gifted. There are a myriad of other special abilities we could discuss, but those are a few I've thought about. Let me digress again...to animals we think are 'blessed' with super physical abilities. Humans can perhaps understand why some people are just able to run faster by considering their musculature/reflexes/bone structure, but lets consider, say, the cheetah. Yes, we humans can look at the cheetah and, like the star sprinter, see their muscles, tendon placement and bone structure and reason out why he can run so fast. But when the cheetah himself chases down a gazelle by sprinting at 60-70 mph, HE doesn't understand what makes him able to do that....he was just born that way. Same goes with other animals with what we considered super abilities. They all do what they do with no inclination of how they can do it or that it is particularly special. The cheetah doesn't know he's the fastest land animal. So we get to someone who appears to have some other gift...like premonitions. Perhaps there is part of the human psyche/mental makeup that allows a special connection with the physical world. It simply allows them to tap into...what you would call universal consciousness or what I would think of as a combination of 'fields' or 'auras' and somehow it allows them to either manipulate the world around them or tap into some sort of time continuum that includes the future. If that were the case it could be they (you) do it automatically/intuitively, without understanding how, at all. So I would see the person with premonitions as being no more aware of the whys and hows than the cheetah understands why he's so fast. So, in conclusion, I would explain your premonitions as a special ability you personally have to connect with the world around you...even if you don't understand how you can do it or why it happens. And to me it would be perfectly legitimate to use the word spiritual/spirituality to refer to that special ability. So if it benefits you I applaud it and wish you well.
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Post by mystery on Aug 28, 2021 13:27:16 GMT
I'm curious. How would you explain them? I've ruled out coincidence and good judgment as explanations, because they're often extremely specific and not based on any observable evidence. You could dismiss a few instances as coincidences, but after 5 or 10 or 100 times, coincidence just doesn't really cut it. And for me, there is definitely a spiritual aspect to premonitions. When I'm actively practicing my spirituality, I pick up a lot more premonitions and they come through more clearly than when I'm not. My view of Divinity is quite different than the Christian view of God. I generally don't anthropomorphize it, and I see it something more along the lines of a universal consciousness, or even just lifeforce that exists within all things. When I do trance work, I plug into that, and things tend to get pretty weird. That's why I've taken a break from it. Sometimes, you just don't want to know. First let me be clear, I do not see atheism...or whatever category my world view falls into, as something to aspire to or something I would try to convince someone else of. Second, I am continually processing stories such as yours and others I've heard from credible sources. I will take you at your word. I can't fully explain them (yours and some others) and do not regard them as fantasy. So they remain a quandry although I do have some ideas. I won't pry into the details as it's likely personal. Third, I've thought about this a lot so this is kind of a long rsp. It hinges on my conviction that there is far more to the physical/material world that we humans know or perhaps ever can know. While it is a vague concept, a sort of universal consciousness could fit the bill to explain things that seem beyond what many might call the purely natural although considering/believing something like that likely would not cause me to re-term my world view as theistic. I would, as you, likely refer to it as a from of spiritualism or mysterious. One side track would be that there is no doubt in my mind that there is....people (and many kinds of animals) have conscious/are conscious. It's a no-brainer. So certainly the world, such as it is, does produce/has consciousness. And that poses a mystery...perhaps a bigger mystery than even some of the accounts, like yours, that I hear about. What is consciousness and what brings it about? Sure it seems centered in the brain...but HOW does it form the concept/feeling of 'I-ness' or 'me?' So from that, lets progress to my explanation such as it is. I might look at accounts such as yours (and others) as falling into a category of a person's own special abilities. Take physical and mental capabilities. There are some people I've read about/know/seen who simply have a much greater capacity to do things than me and other run of the mill humans. I am thinking of athletes, musicians and, say, theoretical physicists. Take your super athletes. Sure, they train and exercise for years, but...IMHO, they also start off at a different level than I did or most other people do. Now, for athletic prowess, the explanation often seems fairly straight forward...bigger muscles, faster reflexes, longer bones, and other physical differences paint the backdrop for a super athlete. But overall, they are simply more innately gifted than the rest of us from the beginning. Another category might be gifted musicians. Sure, they spend thousands of hours honing their skills, but I am convinced and own to the truth that regardless of how many hours and years I practice I would NEVER be a proficient. Again, part can be explained by looking at their body/physical capabilities, but not all of it. They have a gift that goes deeper than coordination and reflexes. Then on to, say, theoretical physicists, the Einsteins and Hawkings of the world. Sure they put years of study into learning facts, details and methods to be where they are. But I am convinced there are some people who are, for want of a better phrase, in a category by themselves, thinking wise. As I said, when we see someone with super physical abilities, it is somewhat obvious why. When we look at someone who has super thinking abilities, I think we're less able to 'see' what the differences are in why they can think at the levels they do. Sure we can attribute it generally to their brain working better...better synapse connections...the parts of their brains that lend to such detailed thinking are better. One way to explain these exceptional people would be to simply say there is 'the divine' and that's how Einstein figured out relativity. I believe one can simply look to the individual coupled with the all-mysterious consciousness and see that as why they are gifted. There are a myriad of other special abilities we could discuss, but those are a few I've thought about. Let me digress again...to animals we think are 'blessed' with super physical abilities. Humans can perhaps understand why some people are just able to run faster by considering their musculature/reflexes/bone structure, but lets consider, say, the cheetah. Yes, we humans can look at the cheetah and, like the star sprinter, see their muscles, tendon placement and bone structure and reason out why he can run so fast. But when the cheetah himself chases down a gazelle by sprinting at 60-70 mph, HE doesn't understand what makes him able to do that....he was just born that way. Same goes with other animals with what we considered super abilities. They all do what they do with no inclination of how they can do it or that it is particularly special. The cheetah doesn't know he's the fastest land animal. So we get to someone who appears to have some other gift...like premonitions. Perhaps there is part of the human psyche/mental makeup that allows a special connection with the physical world. It simply allows them to tap into...what you would call universal consciousness or what I would think of as a combination of 'fields' or 'auras' and somehow it allows them to either manipulate the world around them or tap into some sort of time continuum that includes the future. If that were the case it could be they (you) do it automatically/intuitively, without understanding how, at all. So I would see the person with premonitions as being no more aware of the whys and hows than the cheetah understands why he's so fast. So, in conclusion, I would explain your premonitions as a special ability you personally have to connect with the world around you...even if you don't understand how you can do it or why it happens. And to me it would be perfectly legitimate to use the word spiritual/spirituality to refer to that special ability. So if it benefits you I applaud it and wish you well. It's funny, I had previously written out a much longer post that I ultimately decided to scrap, where I talked about many of the same things you did. I compared my spiritual practices to an ability like playing the piano, because it requires training and skill and dedication in order to be very good at it, and we all have different levels of aptitude and interest. My working theory at the moment has to do with reincarnation, that the older souls tend to have more spiritual aptitude than the younger souls. That makes sense to me, because it actually takes a lot of strength and maturity to deal with this stuff and not break in half. It's a lot harder than most people realize, because you're kind of forced to face a lot of your own character flaws and weaknesses, and those are hurdles you have to overcome if you want to continue to grow. During my younger years, I struggled with arrogance and egotism, just from having an unusual ability. I've struggled extensively with shame and guilt, because I feel responsible for the things I foresee. I've also struggled with just feeling different, because my worldview and life experiences are profoundly different than most people. But, by facing those flaws, I've also become tremendously strong as an individual. At this point, I'm practically unbreakable, and I'm really proud of the person I've become. It's been a long road, but I don't regret anything. I find it interesting that we have some similar views, and yet you consider yourself to be an atheist, while I consider myself a theist. Those lines get a little blurry when you reach the edges of theoretical physics. After a certain point, it almost becomes merely a matter of semantics.
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Post by rizdek on Aug 28, 2021 17:32:32 GMT
First let me be clear, I do not see atheism...or whatever category my world view falls into, as something to aspire to or something I would try to convince someone else of. Second, I am continually processing stories such as yours and others I've heard from credible sources. I will take you at your word. I can't fully explain them (yours and some others) and do not regard them as fantasy. So they remain a quandry although I do have some ideas. I won't pry into the details as it's likely personal. Third, I've thought about this a lot so this is kind of a long rsp. It hinges on my conviction that there is far more to the physical/material world that we humans know or perhaps ever can know. While it is a vague concept, a sort of universal consciousness could fit the bill to explain things that seem beyond what many might call the purely natural although considering/believing something like that likely would not cause me to re-term my world view as theistic. I would, as you, likely refer to it as a from of spiritualism or mysterious. One side track would be that there is no doubt in my mind that there is....people (and many kinds of animals) have conscious/are conscious. It's a no-brainer. So certainly the world, such as it is, does produce/has consciousness. And that poses a mystery...perhaps a bigger mystery than even some of the accounts, like yours, that I hear about. What is consciousness and what brings it about? Sure it seems centered in the brain...but HOW does it form the concept/feeling of 'I-ness' or 'me?' So from that, lets progress to my explanation such as it is. I might look at accounts such as yours (and others) as falling into a category of a person's own special abilities. Take physical and mental capabilities. There are some people I've read about/know/seen who simply have a much greater capacity to do things than me and other run of the mill humans. I am thinking of athletes, musicians and, say, theoretical physicists. Take your super athletes. Sure, they train and exercise for years, but...IMHO, they also start off at a different level than I did or most other people do. Now, for athletic prowess, the explanation often seems fairly straight forward...bigger muscles, faster reflexes, longer bones, and other physical differences paint the backdrop for a super athlete. But overall, they are simply more innately gifted than the rest of us from the beginning. Another category might be gifted musicians. Sure, they spend thousands of hours honing their skills, but I am convinced and own to the truth that regardless of how many hours and years I practice I would NEVER be a proficient. Again, part can be explained by looking at their body/physical capabilities, but not all of it. They have a gift that goes deeper than coordination and reflexes. Then on to, say, theoretical physicists, the Einsteins and Hawkings of the world. Sure they put years of study into learning facts, details and methods to be where they are. But I am convinced there are some people who are, for want of a better phrase, in a category by themselves, thinking wise. As I said, when we see someone with super physical abilities, it is somewhat obvious why. When we look at someone who has super thinking abilities, I think we're less able to 'see' what the differences are in why they can think at the levels they do. Sure we can attribute it generally to their brain working better...better synapse connections...the parts of their brains that lend to such detailed thinking are better. One way to explain these exceptional people would be to simply say there is 'the divine' and that's how Einstein figured out relativity. I believe one can simply look to the individual coupled with the all-mysterious consciousness and see that as why they are gifted. There are a myriad of other special abilities we could discuss, but those are a few I've thought about. Let me digress again...to animals we think are 'blessed' with super physical abilities. Humans can perhaps understand why some people are just able to run faster by considering their musculature/reflexes/bone structure, but lets consider, say, the cheetah. Yes, we humans can look at the cheetah and, like the star sprinter, see their muscles, tendon placement and bone structure and reason out why he can run so fast. But when the cheetah himself chases down a gazelle by sprinting at 60-70 mph, HE doesn't understand what makes him able to do that....he was just born that way. Same goes with other animals with what we considered super abilities. They all do what they do with no inclination of how they can do it or that it is particularly special. The cheetah doesn't know he's the fastest land animal. So we get to someone who appears to have some other gift...like premonitions. Perhaps there is part of the human psyche/mental makeup that allows a special connection with the physical world. It simply allows them to tap into...what you would call universal consciousness or what I would think of as a combination of 'fields' or 'auras' and somehow it allows them to either manipulate the world around them or tap into some sort of time continuum that includes the future. If that were the case it could be they (you) do it automatically/intuitively, without understanding how, at all. So I would see the person with premonitions as being no more aware of the whys and hows than the cheetah understands why he's so fast. So, in conclusion, I would explain your premonitions as a special ability you personally have to connect with the world around you...even if you don't understand how you can do it or why it happens. And to me it would be perfectly legitimate to use the word spiritual/spirituality to refer to that special ability. So if it benefits you I applaud it and wish you well. It's funny, I had previously written out a much longer post that I ultimately decided to scrap, where I talked about many of the same things you did. I compared my spiritual practices to an ability like playing the piano, because it requires training and skill and dedication in order to be very good at it, and we all have different levels of aptitude and interest. My working theory at the moment has to do with reincarnation, that the older souls tend to have more spiritual aptitude than the younger souls. That makes sense to me, because it actually takes a lot of strength and maturity to deal with this stuff and not break in half. It's a lot harder than most people realize, because you're kind of forced to face a lot of your own character flaws and weaknesses, and those are hurdles you have to overcome if you want to continue to grow. During my younger years, I struggled with arrogance and egotism, just from having an unusual ability. I've struggled extensively with shame and guilt, because I feel responsible for the things I foresee. I've also struggled with just feeling different, because my worldview and life experiences are profoundly different than most people. But, by facing those flaws, I've also become tremendously strong as an individual. At this point, I'm practically unbreakable, and I'm really proud of the person I've become. It's been a long road, but I don't regret anything. I find it interesting that we have some similar views, and yet you consider yourself to be an atheist, while I consider myself a theist. Those lines get a little blurry when you reach the edges of theoretical physics. After a certain point, it almost becomes merely a matter of semantics. It probably does come down to semantics. I tend to have a somewhat narrow view of what I'd call God. I see God as a person (entity with personhood) I would be expected to be beholden to and something that consciously interacts with people. Anything else...universal consciousness, spiritualism, spiritual auras, ancestor worship/interaction/consideration, reincarnation, etc. I'd just think of that as...universal consciousness, spiritualism/spiritual awareness, spiritual auras, etc. I could well believe consciousness does depend on something akin to a field and that some people can interact with that 'field' while others simply can't or don't know that they do. So...maybe really not a lot of difference in our views.
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Post by mystery on Aug 29, 2021 13:33:55 GMT
It's funny, I had previously written out a much longer post that I ultimately decided to scrap, where I talked about many of the same things you did. I compared my spiritual practices to an ability like playing the piano, because it requires training and skill and dedication in order to be very good at it, and we all have different levels of aptitude and interest. My working theory at the moment has to do with reincarnation, that the older souls tend to have more spiritual aptitude than the younger souls. That makes sense to me, because it actually takes a lot of strength and maturity to deal with this stuff and not break in half. It's a lot harder than most people realize, because you're kind of forced to face a lot of your own character flaws and weaknesses, and those are hurdles you have to overcome if you want to continue to grow. During my younger years, I struggled with arrogance and egotism, just from having an unusual ability. I've struggled extensively with shame and guilt, because I feel responsible for the things I foresee. I've also struggled with just feeling different, because my worldview and life experiences are profoundly different than most people. But, by facing those flaws, I've also become tremendously strong as an individual. At this point, I'm practically unbreakable, and I'm really proud of the person I've become. It's been a long road, but I don't regret anything. I find it interesting that we have some similar views, and yet you consider yourself to be an atheist, while I consider myself a theist. Those lines get a little blurry when you reach the edges of theoretical physics. After a certain point, it almost becomes merely a matter of semantics. It probably does come down to semantics. I tend to have a somewhat narrow view of what I'd call God. I see God as a person (entity with personhood) I would be expected to be beholden to and something that consciously interacts with people. Anything else...universal consciousness, spiritualism, spiritual auras, ancestor worship/interaction/consideration, reincarnation, etc. I'd just think of that as...universal consciousness, spiritualism/spiritual awareness, spiritual auras, etc. I could well believe consciousness does depend on something akin to a field and that some people can interact with that 'field' while others simply can't or don't know that they do. So...maybe really not a lot of difference in our views. And I suppose I have a similarly narrow definition of atheism, as someone who believes in nothing at all. I personally avoid using the term "God" just because it is so deeply associated with Christianity. However, I do come from a pagan background, so I don't mind referring to Divinity as Goddess, or Mother Nature, or something similar. I don't get too hung up on names and labels, because I don't think it really matters anyway. I typically consider anyone who acknowledges a higher power to be a theist. When I was an atheist, I was mostly just rejecting the Christian view of God, too. It took me a while to realize there are other ways of conceptualising Divinity.
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Post by rizdek on Aug 29, 2021 15:36:21 GMT
It probably does come down to semantics. I tend to have a somewhat narrow view of what I'd call God. I see God as a person (entity with personhood) I would be expected to be beholden to and something that consciously interacts with people. Anything else...universal consciousness, spiritualism, spiritual auras, ancestor worship/interaction/consideration, reincarnation, etc. I'd just think of that as...universal consciousness, spiritualism/spiritual awareness, spiritual auras, etc. I could well believe consciousness does depend on something akin to a field and that some people can interact with that 'field' while others simply can't or don't know that they do. So...maybe really not a lot of difference in our views. And I suppose I have a similarly narrow definition of atheism, as someone who believes in nothing at all. I personally avoid using the term "God" just because it is so deeply associated with Christianity. However, I do come from a pagan background, so I don't mind referring to Divinity as Goddess, or Mother Nature, or something similar. I don't get too hung up on names and labels, because I don't think it really matters anyway. I typically consider anyone who acknowledges a higher power to be a theist. When I was an atheist, I was mostly just rejecting the Christian view of God, too. It took me a while to realize there are other ways of conceptualising Divinity. Interesting. I know lots of atheists become nihilists and resort to believing in...almost or literally...nothing. I don't agree that that is necessary or even probable...ie that without God there can be no objective reality. Atheists seem to buy into the theist's contention that God can be the only source of absolutes, or real or object Truth. And of course this takes us down another rabbit hole in that I've never heard a good argument for why God...or a god...helps/makes a difference in that areas. Why would the existence of God suddenly change the world such that without God, no objective truth/no objective reality exists, but with God, somehow magically real object truth suddenly becomes possible/exists. It's an arbitrary assertion, IMHO, that the existence of God does that. Take morality. If there are morally right ways of doing things, then the reasons for making that distinction either exist or doesn't exist. If they exist...if there are good reasons for believing one way of treating others is better than other ways, then those reasons exist whether there is a God or not. I simply have faith that the natural world contains the foundations for that reasoning and moral/ethical decisions made by someone in a world without God are just as valid/useful as those same decisions made in a world with God. I can't explain it (very well), ie how the natural world provides a foundation for truth, but then I couldn't explain how the existence of God helps/changes the issue. Sure, we can say that God mandates certain things and says one way is right and another way is wrong. But so what? How do we know...other than by using some independent (of God) underlying reasoning I just referred to...whether what God mandated is actually right? A theist would simply have to have faith, like me. I have faith the natural world provides the foundation for that reasoning. They have faith....not ONLY that God is good and is not devious, faith that the guidance we seem to be getting is actually from God, but also faith that there is some valid reasoning to make this assessment. To put it another way, there simply seems to be no way to apply the term 'good' to God without some independent way of evaluating God. If we depend on the reasoning ability God gave us, it becomes circular reasoning and IMHO useless. That would mean we say God is good because we believe God is good and God is believed to be good because God tells us to believe he is good. Or, we depend on reasoning that God gave us to assess whether he is good or not. How can that be a reliable way to assess morality? That would be like rating an employee based on standards the employee himself wrote.
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Post by mystery on Aug 30, 2021 4:34:14 GMT
And I suppose I have a similarly narrow definition of atheism, as someone who believes in nothing at all. I personally avoid using the term "God" just because it is so deeply associated with Christianity. However, I do come from a pagan background, so I don't mind referring to Divinity as Goddess, or Mother Nature, or something similar. I don't get too hung up on names and labels, because I don't think it really matters anyway. I typically consider anyone who acknowledges a higher power to be a theist. When I was an atheist, I was mostly just rejecting the Christian view of God, too. It took me a while to realize there are other ways of conceptualising Divinity. Interesting. I know lots of atheists become nihilists and resort to believing in...almost or literally...nothing. I don't agree that that is necessary or even probable...ie that without God there can be no objective reality. Atheists seem to buy into the theist's contention that God can be the only source of absolutes, or real or object Truth. And of course this takes us down another rabbit hole in that I've never heard a good argument for why God...or a god...helps/makes a difference in that areas. Why would the existence of God suddenly change the world such that without God, no objective truth/no objective reality exists, but with God, somehow magically real object truth suddenly becomes possible/exists. It's an arbitrary assertion, IMHO, that the existence of God does that. Take morality. If there are morally right ways of doing things, then the reasons for making that distinction either exist or doesn't exist. If they exist...if there are good reasons for believing one way of treating others is better than other ways, then those reasons exist whether there is a God or not. I simply have faith that the natural world contains the foundations for that reasoning and moral/ethical decisions made by someone in a world without God are just as valid/useful as those same decisions made in a world with God. I can't explain it (very well), ie how the natural world provides a foundation for truth, but then I couldn't explain how the existence of God helps/changes the issue. Sure, we can say that God mandates certain things and says one way is right and another way is wrong. But so what? How do we know...other than by using some independent (of God) underlying reasoning I just referred to...whether what God mandated is actually right? A theist would simply have to have faith, like me. I have faith the natural world provides the foundation for that reasoning. They have faith....not ONLY that God is good and is not devious, faith that the guidance we seem to be getting is actually from God, but also faith that there is some valid reasoning to make this assessment. To put it another way, there simply seems to be no way to apply the term 'good' to God without some independent way of evaluating God. If we depend on the reasoning ability God gave us, it becomes circular reasoning and IMHO useless. That would mean we say God is good because we believe God is good and God is believed to be good because God tells us to believe he is good. Or, we depend on reasoning that God gave us to assess whether he is good or not. How can that be a reliable way to assess morality? That would be like rating an employee based on standards the employee himself wrote. I'll be honest with you, morality isn't a huge issue for me. Like you indicated, most morality can be discerned from natural law or reason. If you do something stupid, then you'll suffer for it, and hopefully you learned not to make the same mistakes again. I tend to reject dualism, so I don't really categorize things as being good vs evil, or right vs wrong. Nature itself isn't good or evil. It just is. I usually prefer to frame moral issues more in terms of wisdom vs ignorance, with all of us falling somewhere on the spectrum. People cause a lot of harm, both to themselves and to others, because they lack the maturity to comprehend the consequences of their actions. I won't condemn them as evil for that, because we're all still learning here. I think hatred is pointless, and it seems that dualistic thinking makes it far easier to hate those we've branded as evil. Everything becomes black and white, the good guys vs bad guys, and it's just way too oversimplified. I try to avoid that. I don't believe that Divinity is necessarily "good", because that's pretty subjective. I think wise is a better word. From what I've seen, humanity tends to self destruct when we don't have any real problems to deal with. Just look at how the country imploded during the pandemic when people were bored and had nothing to do. People need to be challenged, so suffering isn't necessarily a bad thing. We learn a lot from suffering. I think a lot of atheists (including myself, years ago) look at the suffering in the world and think that it's proof that there is no God. Now, I understand the reason for it. Suffering can be a very good teacher, if we're only willing to learn the lessons it gives us.
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Post by rizdek on Aug 30, 2021 8:29:38 GMT
Interesting. I know lots of atheists become nihilists and resort to believing in...almost or literally...nothing. I don't agree that that is necessary or even probable...ie that without God there can be no objective reality. Atheists seem to buy into the theist's contention that God can be the only source of absolutes, or real or object Truth. And of course this takes us down another rabbit hole in that I've never heard a good argument for why God...or a god...helps/makes a difference in that areas. Why would the existence of God suddenly change the world such that without God, no objective truth/no objective reality exists, but with God, somehow magically real object truth suddenly becomes possible/exists. It's an arbitrary assertion, IMHO, that the existence of God does that. Take morality. If there are morally right ways of doing things, then the reasons for making that distinction either exist or doesn't exist. If they exist...if there are good reasons for believing one way of treating others is better than other ways, then those reasons exist whether there is a God or not. I simply have faith that the natural world contains the foundations for that reasoning and moral/ethical decisions made by someone in a world without God are just as valid/useful as those same decisions made in a world with God. I can't explain it (very well), ie how the natural world provides a foundation for truth, but then I couldn't explain how the existence of God helps/changes the issue. Sure, we can say that God mandates certain things and says one way is right and another way is wrong. But so what? How do we know...other than by using some independent (of God) underlying reasoning I just referred to...whether what God mandated is actually right? A theist would simply have to have faith, like me. I have faith the natural world provides the foundation for that reasoning. They have faith....not ONLY that God is good and is not devious, faith that the guidance we seem to be getting is actually from God, but also faith that there is some valid reasoning to make this assessment. To put it another way, there simply seems to be no way to apply the term 'good' to God without some independent way of evaluating God. If we depend on the reasoning ability God gave us, it becomes circular reasoning and IMHO useless. That would mean we say God is good because we believe God is good and God is believed to be good because God tells us to believe he is good. Or, we depend on reasoning that God gave us to assess whether he is good or not. How can that be a reliable way to assess morality? That would be like rating an employee based on standards the employee himself wrote. I'll be honest with you, morality isn't a huge issue for me. Like you indicated, most morality can be discerned from natural law or reason. If you do something stupid, then you'll suffer for it, and hopefully you learned not to make the same mistakes again. I tend to reject dualism, so I don't really categorize things as being good vs evil, or right vs wrong. Nature itself isn't good or evil. It just is. I usually prefer to frame moral issues more in terms of wisdom vs ignorance, with all of us falling somewhere on the spectrum. People cause a lot of harm, both to themselves and to others, because they lack the maturity to comprehend the consequences of their actions. I won't condemn them as evil for that, because we're all still learning here. I think hatred is pointless, and it seems that dualistic thinking makes it far easier to hate those we've branded as evil. Everything becomes black and white, the good guys vs bad guys, and it's just way too oversimplified. I try to avoid that. I don't believe that Divinity is necessarily "good", because that's pretty subjective. I think wise is a better word. From what I've seen, humanity tends to self destruct when we don't have any real problems to deal with. Just look at how the country imploded during the pandemic when people were bored and had nothing to do. People need to be challenged, so suffering isn't necessarily a bad thing. We learn a lot from suffering. I think a lot of atheists (including myself, years ago) look at the suffering in the world and think that it's proof that there is no God. Now, I understand the reason for it. Suffering can be a very good teacher, if we're only willing to learn the lessons it gives us. I had addressed your statement...'And I suppose I have a similarly narrow definition of atheism, as someone who believes in nothing at all. ' and used morality as an example of an area where theists claim God is critical to there being absolutes. There are other forms of 'Truth' that the theist claims cannot exist without God that I could have used as my example. EG, you believe the divine wise.
Without any qualifications, I don't know exactly what you mean, but it would seem to mean he/it a) makes decisions and b) those decisions are always the right ones. Is that generally correct? If so, on what basis could we draw that conclusion given how hard it would be to show that the level of suffering in the world is precisely the amt needed to make the most people have the best character?
As an aside, the problem of evil/suffering was not a key reason for me being an atheist. I could well believe God exist and allows or even manipulates the world to maintains/ensure a certain level of suffering for its own mysterious reasons. I just don't think so.
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Post by mystery on Aug 30, 2021 12:45:40 GMT
I'll be honest with you, morality isn't a huge issue for me. Like you indicated, most morality can be discerned from natural law or reason. If you do something stupid, then you'll suffer for it, and hopefully you learned not to make the same mistakes again. I tend to reject dualism, so I don't really categorize things as being good vs evil, or right vs wrong. Nature itself isn't good or evil. It just is. I usually prefer to frame moral issues more in terms of wisdom vs ignorance, with all of us falling somewhere on the spectrum. People cause a lot of harm, both to themselves and to others, because they lack the maturity to comprehend the consequences of their actions. I won't condemn them as evil for that, because we're all still learning here. I think hatred is pointless, and it seems that dualistic thinking makes it far easier to hate those we've branded as evil. Everything becomes black and white, the good guys vs bad guys, and it's just way too oversimplified. I try to avoid that. I don't believe that Divinity is necessarily "good", because that's pretty subjective. I think wise is a better word. From what I've seen, humanity tends to self destruct when we don't have any real problems to deal with. Just look at how the country imploded during the pandemic when people were bored and had nothing to do. People need to be challenged, so suffering isn't necessarily a bad thing. We learn a lot from suffering. I think a lot of atheists (including myself, years ago) look at the suffering in the world and think that it's proof that there is no God. Now, I understand the reason for it. Suffering can be a very good teacher, if we're only willing to learn the lessons it gives us. I had addressed your statement...'And I suppose I have a similarly narrow definition of atheism, as someone who believes in nothing at all. ' and used morality as an example of an area where theists claim God is critical to there being absolutes. There are other forms of 'Truth' that the theist claims cannot exist without God that I could have used as my example. EG, you believe the divine wise.
Without any qualifications, I don't know exactly what you mean, but it would seem to mean he/it a) makes decisions and b) those decisions are always the right ones. Is that generally correct? If so, on what basis could we draw that conclusion given how hard it would be to show that the level of suffering in the world is precisely the amt needed to make the most people have the best character?
As an aside, the problem of evil/suffering was not a key reason for me being an atheist. I could well believe God exist and allows or even manipulates the world to maintains/ensure a certain level of suffering for its own mysterious reasons. I just don't think so.
You're coming from a very "Christianesque" view of the higher power, so a lot of the issues you raise don't really apply to my view of Divinity. For me, Divinity is Truth insofar as that it is the highest level of understanding. Can Truth exist without Divinity? I think our perceptions will always be subjective as long as we don't have access to all information, and as mere mortals, we clearly don't. We see through the flawed lens of our limited experience and understanding. Divinity, as universal consciousness or however one wishes to define it, would have access to all information, and that's why it would be considered absolute Truth. Again, I don't anthropomorphize Divinity, so I wouldn't even claim that it has thoughts or makes decisions anything like we do. It simply is.
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Post by rizdek on Aug 30, 2021 14:56:16 GMT
I had addressed your statement...'And I suppose I have a similarly narrow definition of atheism, as someone who believes in nothing at all. ' and used morality as an example of an area where theists claim God is critical to there being absolutes. There are other forms of 'Truth' that the theist claims cannot exist without God that I could have used as my example. EG, you believe the divine wise.
Without any qualifications, I don't know exactly what you mean, but it would seem to mean he/it a) makes decisions and b) those decisions are always the right ones. Is that generally correct? If so, on what basis could we draw that conclusion given how hard it would be to show that the level of suffering in the world is precisely the amt needed to make the most people have the best character?
As an aside, the problem of evil/suffering was not a key reason for me being an atheist. I could well believe God exist and allows or even manipulates the world to maintains/ensure a certain level of suffering for its own mysterious reasons. I just don't think so.
You're coming from a very "Christianesque" view of the higher power, so a lot of the issues you raise don't really apply to my view of Divinity. For me, Divinity is Truth insofar as that it is the highest level of understanding. Can Truth exist without Divinity? I think our perceptions will always be subjective as long as we don't have access to all information, and as mere mortals, we clearly don't. We see through the flawed lens of our limited experience and understanding. Divinity, as universal consciousness or however one wishes to define it, would have access to all information, and that's why it would be considered absolute Truth. Again, I don't anthropomorphize Divinity, so I wouldn't even claim that it has thoughts or makes decisions anything like we do. It simply is. I probably am...coming at this from a Christian God concept view. But I guess it could also be from the POV of any number of the major world religions which have gods that think and act and interact with humans. I hadn't given much thought to the kinds of things you mention that you associate with the 'divine.' Thanks for the dialogue.
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