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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 10:37:53 GMT
Of course genetics alone aren't what defines us as individuals. Our experiences are what defines us as individuals. The part in bold is neat idea, but I have no reason to believe it. Many people believe that it is something more than a product of the brain and our experiences, but I see no reason to believe that. We change through our lives, so what part of us is moving on? What about someone who suffers brain damage at age 15 and loses their memory? They are no longer the same person they were before. So which part goes on when they die? The personality before the brain damage or the personality after the brain damage? That is what people who believe in a literal Heaven can't answer in a way that makes any sense. That is what I am mainly asking about. Nobody has a definitive answer for you. Sorry. That isn't why I asked the question. I am not looking for a definitive answer. If that is how I am coming off then it is a problem with my communication skills. I am definitely not the best communicator. I am looking for just people's different opinions on the matter and asking them why they think what they do, because I am a curious person. Here are the 2 main definitions that pop up on Google. 1. the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal. 2. emotional or intellectual energy or intensity, especially as revealed in a work of art or an artistic performance. I am referring to the first definition. Notice that it says "regarded as immortal."
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 11:04:18 GMT
Of course genetics alone aren't what defines us as individuals. Our experiences are what defines us as individuals. The part in bold is neat idea, but I have no reason to believe it. Many people believe that it is something more than a product of the brain and our experiences, but I see no reason to believe that. We change through our lives, so what part of us is moving on? What about someone who suffers brain damage at age 15 and loses their memory? They are no longer the same person they were before. So which part goes on when they die? The personality before the brain damage or the personality after the brain damage? That is what people who believe in a literal Heaven can't answer in a way that makes any sense. That is what I am mainly asking about. Nobody has a definitive answer for you. Sorry. Hey, you prompted me to look into the soul defintions deeply. I mistakenly assumed that most people consider the soul to be eternal and something that lives in the body but doesn't require the brain to produce it or sustain it. I apologize for the confusion stemmed from my ignorance. Webster definition doesn't mention the soul being immortal/eternal at all.
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Post by rizdek on Aug 3, 2021 11:41:22 GMT
In Christianity at least the soul is the "essence of you" that lives on forever. This raises so many questions and all you will ever get is fuzzy answers that make very little sense. What the heck is the "essence" of you? ME is the the term for the whole of me at every moment throughout my life and can be changed drastically depending on what happens throughout my life. So what part of me is living on? Just the best parts of me? Well, if that is the case then it isn't really me that is in Heaven. How is the essence of you burning in Hell for all eternity? I assume this will be just a form of mental torture, because physical pain is linked to the body. What the heck does your soul do in Heaven for all eternity? People like the idea of being with their loved ones forever, but they really don't think this through. I don't think anything that is me will continue on after I die and my brain stops functioning. The components of my body will...molecules/atoms/ets., but it won't be me anymore. I really don't think my 'soul' will continue on like in some other creatures mind although it is an interesting idea and I have had experiences that could lead me to think that happens or actually did happen...but I think it was my imagination.
I was not 'me' when I was born...I wasn't anybody. I developed into me as I grew and my natural experiences informed my genetically constructed 'computer.' I think the soul is my consciousness....aka my mind. I think it depends on having a physical brain...ie without a functioning brain, we would not have a mind/consciousness and therefore no soul. I don't think the soul/mind/consciousness is anything other than naturally based but I also think there is a lot about 'nature' we don't and may never understand.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 11:50:55 GMT
In Christianity at least the soul is the "essence of you" that lives on forever. This raises so many questions and all you will ever get is fuzzy answers that make very little sense. What the heck is the "essence" of you? ME is the the term for the whole of me at every moment throughout my life and can be changed drastically depending on what happens throughout my life. So what part of me is living on? Just the best parts of me? Well, if that is the case then it isn't really me that is in Heaven. How is the essence of you burning in Hell for all eternity? I assume this will be just a form of mental torture, because physical pain is linked to the body. What the heck does your soul do in Heaven for all eternity? People like the idea of being with their loved ones forever, but they really don't think this through. I don't think anything that is me will continue on after I die and my brain stops functioning. The components of my body will...molecules/atoms/ets., but it won't be me anymore. I really don't think my 'soul' will continue on like in some other creatures mind although it is an interesting idea and I have had experiences that could lead me to think that happens or actually did happen...but I think it was my imagination.
I was not 'me' when I was born...I wasn't anybody. I developed into me as I grew and my natural experiences informed my genetically constructed 'computer.' I think the soul is my consciousness....aka my mind. I think it depends on having a physical brain...ie without a functioning brain, we would not have a mind/consciousness and therefore no soul. I don't think the soul/mind/consciousness is anything other than naturally based but I also think there is a lot about 'nature' we don't and may never understand.
I agree with almost everything you wrote. I just don't like the word soul, because it is often used in a threatening way in the major religions and the worst sections of those preach that it is some form of you that is eternal and they use threats against it to scare people into believing what they believe. The word soul has too much baggage attached imo. Everybody has different ideas about what it is exactly and in my experience most people think it is a part of you that is eternal.
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Post by mystery on Aug 3, 2021 13:11:27 GMT
Your OP is clearly geared toward Christians, not theists in general, but I'll answer anyway. I personally see the soul as the spark of the divine within each of us. I believe in reincarnation as a way for us to gain depth and wisdom through experience. I even tend to categorize people I know in real life by their soul ages. For me, they're very easy to read. Younger souls tend to be shallow and materialistic, lack much character or insight into life, and they usually prefer to follow the crowd. The older souls are not materialistic, they usually are not very good followers, they are very grounded and have more tolerance and wisdom than others. It's no better or worse to be one or the other, just like it's not better or worse to be a child or an old person. It's just where we're at at, and we're all still learning and growing. As for what happens when we get off the incarnation merry-go-round, who knows. Maybe there are other jobs to do, other things to learn, other mountains to climb. I don't think people just sit on a cloud playing a harp for eternity. I tend to think that the ultimate goal is to join back with the godhead, but it doesn't really matter. The main objective for right now is to focus on this life, to learn all we can while we're here, and to try to become better human beings. That's something I wish all people would do, regardless of their spiritual beliefs, or lack thereof.It is and isn't. The title of the thread is the broad question about souls and the part about Christians in my OP is specific. I am more interested in one then the other though. I'm glad you answered, since I am asking everybody. I can get on board with the part at the bottom, but that is about all I can get on board with regarding what you wrote. It would be neat if re-incarnation is a thing. That makes a lot more sense to me than what Christians view as a soul. Are you a theist though? Re-incarnation doesn't require the belief that a God exists. Yes, I am definitely a theist, however I usually choose not to define what exactly Divinity is. During my younger years, I always tried to find a way to capture it into words, but the more I tried, the less accurate it became. Finally, I just stopped trying. Divinity is ineffable, something that can only be experienced, not explained. So many people seek Divinity through words in a book, but I'm not convinced that works. Books can serve as a guide post, I suppose, but they are not enough in and of themselves. The deeper truths can never be found in books. They must be experienced.
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Post by mystery on Aug 3, 2021 13:18:33 GMT
The main objective for right now is to focus on this life, to learn all we can while we're here, and to try to become better human beings. Isn't that pretty much Christianity in a nutshell? How you treat others is what makes you a bad/good/better human being, and Christianity is all about how you treat others. Even your enemies. I guess the problem here is the overall lack of desire to be a better human being. Is it? Unfortunately, I know an awful lot of people who claim that once they're saved, then they can do whatever they want, because God will forgive them. They are some of the worst people I have ever known, because they lack anything resembling a functioning conscience, and they pretty much think God exists simply to serve them, rather than vice versa. My overall perception of modern Christianity is quite negative, although I do still see people as individuals, and I know there are some good Christians out there, too.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 13:21:45 GMT
It is and isn't. The title of the thread is the broad question about souls and the part about Christians in my OP is specific. I am more interested in one then the other though. I'm glad you answered, since I am asking everybody. I can get on board with the part at the bottom, but that is about all I can get on board with regarding what you wrote. It would be neat if re-incarnation is a thing. That makes a lot more sense to me than what Christians view as a soul. Are you a theist though? Re-incarnation doesn't require the belief that a God exists. Yes, I am definitely a theist, however I usually choose not to define what exactly Divinity is. During my younger years, I always tried to find a way to capture it into words, but the more I tried, the less accurate it became. Finally, I just stopped trying. Divinity is ineffable, something that can only be experienced, not explained. So many people seek Divinity through words in a book, but I'm not convinced that works. Books can serve as a guide post, I suppose, but they are not enough in and of themselves. The deeper truths can never be found in books. They must be experienced. This is why I don't consider myself a theist. The language is too fuzzy and just confuses. I like words like Universe, because almost everybody is talking about the same thing. Theists add words onto that word and all of the theists mean something different. Some are extremely specific and some sound like someone who juts got done dropping acid and like poetic language.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 13:30:31 GMT
Isn't that pretty much Christianity in a nutshell? How you treat others is what makes you a bad/good/better human being, and Christianity is all about how you treat others. Even your enemies. I guess the problem here is the overall lack of desire to be a better human being. Is it? Unfortunately, I know an awful lot of people who claim that once they're saved, then they can do whatever they want, because God will forgive them. They are some of the worst people I have ever known, because they lack anything resembling a functioning conscience, and they pretty much think God exists simply to serve them, rather than vice versa. My overall perception of modern Christianity is quite negative, although I do still see people as individuals, and I know there are some good Christians out there, too. Yeah, Christianity in my experience is "worship something I can't prove exists or you will be tortured for eternity." You point out the problem with Christianity specifically. There are hundreds of different denominations and they all believe different things. Fundamentalists are fun. I say that ironically obviously. Heck, I watched a video of a Christian yesterday who softens it down to barely meaning anything. Doesn't matter what you do, you will be shown the error of your ways on Judgment Day and get into Heaven anyway. Doesn't matter what you believe, it will all be sorted out and good times for all in the afterlife. Well, damn, that is every mass murderer's dream interpretation.
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Post by mystery on Aug 3, 2021 13:32:32 GMT
Yes, I am definitely a theist, however I usually choose not to define what exactly Divinity is. During my younger years, I always tried to find a way to capture it into words, but the more I tried, the less accurate it became. Finally, I just stopped trying. Divinity is ineffable, something that can only be experienced, not explained. So many people seek Divinity through words in a book, but I'm not convinced that works. Books can serve as a guide post, I suppose, but they are not enough in and of themselves. The deeper truths can never be found in books. They must be experienced. This is why I don't consider myself a theist. The language is too fuzzy and just confuses. I like words like Universe, because almost everybody is talking about the same thing. Theists add words onto that word and all of the theists mean something different. Some are extremely specific and some sound like someone who juts got done dropping acid and like poetic language. And that's fine. Like most atheists, you are more comfortable with concrete concepts that are easy to define, while I'm comfortable with an element of, well, mystery. My spirituality could be considered a form of mysticism, and there are a lot of those fuzzy, undefinable areas. I can understand how a concrete thinker would not like that. We all have our own path to take.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 13:34:36 GMT
This is why I don't consider myself a theist. The language is too fuzzy and just confuses. I like words like Universe, because almost everybody is talking about the same thing. Theists add words onto that word and all of the theists mean something different. Some are extremely specific and some sound like someone who juts got done dropping acid and like poetic language. And that's fine. Like most atheists, you are more comfortable with concrete concepts that are easy to define, while I'm comfortable with an element of, well, mystery. My spirituality could be considered a form of mysticism, and there are a lot of those fuzzy, undefinable areas. I can understand how a concrete thinker would not like that. We all have our own path to take. If all theists were like you, I think atheism would be a lot less common.
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Post by mystery on Aug 3, 2021 13:37:45 GMT
And that's fine. Like most atheists, you are more comfortable with concrete concepts that are easy to define, while I'm comfortable with an element of, well, mystery. My spirituality could be considered a form of mysticism, and there are a lot of those fuzzy, undefinable areas. I can understand how a concrete thinker would not like that. We all have our own path to take. If all theists were like you, I think atheism would be a lot less common. LOL. Thank you for the compliment.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 3, 2021 13:42:18 GMT
If all theists were like you, I think atheism would be a lot less common. LOL. Thank you for the compliment. I have no problem complimenting people that aren't telling me that I was born awful because my great great great great great grandfather ate some fruit and if I think about sex I better beg because I will suffer for all eternity if I don't feel guilty about it.
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Post by Admin on Aug 3, 2021 17:51:52 GMT
Isn't that pretty much Christianity in a nutshell? How you treat others is what makes you a bad/good/better human being, and Christianity is all about how you treat others. Even your enemies. I guess the problem here is the overall lack of desire to be a better human being. Is it? Unfortunately, I know an awful lot of people who claim that once they're saved, then they can do whatever they want, because God will forgive them. They are some of the worst people I have ever known, because they lack anything resembling a functioning conscience, and they pretty much think God exists simply to serve them, rather than vice versa. My overall perception of modern Christianity is quite negative, although I do still see people as individuals, and I know there are some good Christians out there, too. I was talking about Christianity. You’re talking about Christians.
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Post by drystyx on Aug 3, 2021 18:37:09 GMT
That's tricky due to definitions.
The intellectual definition is different than the common definition.
Most people think the soul is what intellectuals and theologians call the "spirit".
Any seminary grad and any philosophy major and anyone heavily educated on the subject (okay, maybe just 95% of them) will say that what is commonly referred to as the "soul" is actually the "spirit".
And "spirit" has different connotations, because it has various definitions.
So, in order to be clear, the philosopher definition of "soul" is more of a worldly and tangible view, of the organism and its systems in connection with the "spirit". The "soul" to the theologian is the "meter". This is easy to understand, because the "meter" uses only the basic senses of interpretation we understand and measure...sight, sound, smell, touch, taste. Since we know of five, and are limited to five, only the most chauvinistic and bigoted individual would proclaim these are the only five for which the "meter reader" is eligible. In fact, how can we know the "meter reader" even uses these five when not doing interpretations through the central network interpretation system, which we think of as a 'brain"?
The philosopher-theologian definition of "spirit" is what most people think of as soul. It's best described as the "meter reader", not any part of the meter.
So, if you mean the common man's definition of "soul" which is the theologian definition of "spirit", then you're speaking of the "meter reader" of all the functions. The organism, the brain, everything, is just part of the environment, in which the use of sight, sound, etc., is the means of interpretation.
So, it's an impossible question to answer from interpretation of limited functions (sight, sound, etc.).
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Post by Rodney Farber on Aug 3, 2021 21:10:26 GMT
As I go through life, there are certain events that only I remember. A good example would be that I almost hit a tree in my car while on my way back to college after spring break my junior year. Only I can remember the weather, where it was, and the time of day. My definition of my soul is any living thing that remembers that event. If life is eternal, then I will remember that event in my afterlife. My fear is that there will be no memory of that event after I die and therefore, my soul will die when the doctor signs my death certificate. Any hope that the soul continues to live is just a pipe dream.
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Post by drystyx on Aug 3, 2021 21:32:44 GMT
As I go through life, there are certain events that only I remember. A good example would be that I almost hit a tree in my car while on my way back to college after spring break my junior year. Only I can remember the weather, where it was, and the time of day. My definition of my soul is any living thing that remembers that event. If life is eternal, then I will remember that event in my afterlife. My fear is that there will be no memory of that event after I die and therefore, my soul will die when the doctor signs my death certificate. Any hope that the soul continues to live is just a pipe dream.
In Theology and Philosophy and Science and Grammar, that is the "soul", which is different than what people think of as "soul". It isn't the spirit. It isn't the "meter reader". The spirit is the "meter reader". Most people call this the "soul", till corrected by the intellectuals, but a rose by any other name is still a rose. The "soul" of Philosophy is the interpretation of the five senses, such as you described. However, you are actually the "meter reader" acting as a verb instead of a noun. Ancient people understood this before they began building mirrors which made them think of themselves as nouns. And they were glad to have mirrors, because their bodies changed over time. A six year old who saw you at age 23, would see a young person with good hair and skin, and you would have his or her respect. When he or she was 26, that person wouldn't even think you were the same person as that 23 year old, although you would know you were the same person. The mirror would be a good tool to make you understand why that was so, and thus people had to think of themselves as nouns in order to survive and breed their genetic material. These are things the "soul" would know and remember. The "spirit", or meter reader, probably molds with the soul, so one has to be careful where one is going. There's no guarantee the meter reader will stop with the soul. If it did, there would be no concern for later, but since the soul only relies on limited sensual data for interpretation, it is almost surely not essential for the spirit. Helen Keller couldn't see or hear, yet we have every reason to believe she had a "meter reader". The evidence, therefore, shows that the spirit doesn't end, and that's a scary thought. It's bad enough to be under the thumb of the laws of Physics on the environment of our inferior forms of existence we have now. We surely don't want to go through anything like this again, unless we're morons. Yet reincarnation of some form seems inevitable, be it in a body or something else. In view of that, one wonders what a good way to mold a spirit is. Buddha, Jesus, and a few others agree on a positive influence being most helpful in being cast into a positive mode of meter reading and thus a superior mode of existence. These same people also let us know that the best existence isn't in this world, or the flesh, so to speak. One wants to believe that one remembers a mother or brother or dog or cat, but those are of the soul. It's the capability to love these things that molds the spirit, I am quite sure. At least that's what the evidence shows. The evidence being the limited senses and capabilities we have now.
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Post by rizdek on Aug 4, 2021 12:47:23 GMT
I don't think anything that is me will continue on after I die and my brain stops functioning. The components of my body will...molecules/atoms/ets., but it won't be me anymore. I really don't think my 'soul' will continue on like in some other creatures mind although it is an interesting idea and I have had experiences that could lead me to think that happens or actually did happen...but I think it was my imagination.
I was not 'me' when I was born...I wasn't anybody. I developed into me as I grew and my natural experiences informed my genetically constructed 'computer.' I think the soul is my consciousness....aka my mind. I think it depends on having a physical brain...ie without a functioning brain, we would not have a mind/consciousness and therefore no soul. I don't think the soul/mind/consciousness is anything other than naturally based but I also think there is a lot about 'nature' we don't and may never understand.
I agree with almost everything you wrote. I just don't like the word soul, because it is often used in a threatening way in the major religions and the worst sections of those preach that it is some form of you that is eternal and they use threats against it to scare people into believing what they believe. The word soul has too much baggage attached imo. Everybody has different ideas about what it is exactly and in my experience most people think it is a part of you that is eternal. I don't use the term soul either..only when someone brings it up and I try to explain what I think people who talk about the soul are really talking about. I don't use the term spirit either...other than to refer to a character/personality type, ie someone with spirit or 'that's the spirit' meaning an upbeat attitude.
I only think in terms of consciousness and sometimes I talk/think about the mind. I think of those, the mind and my consciousness, as my ability to think of myself in the first person...'I,' and as am individual separate from other beings. As I said, I think the mind and our consciousness depends on a functioning physical brain. Whether and the degree to which other living creatures/communities have (a) mind or consciousness I don't know, although I believe most higher animals (and I can't really define that) have something akin to a mind/consciousness and think of themselves as individuals amongst other's of their kind and the rest of the world.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 5, 2021 17:17:02 GMT
How is the essence of you burning in Hell for all eternity? I assume this will be just a form of mental torture, because physical pain is linked to the body. If you're particularly thinking of Christian views on the soul, the popular idea of a mental-only, Cartesian "ghost in the machine" type soul you're eluding to here has largely been rejected by mainstream Christianity. Catholicism for instance has largely (via Thomas Aquinas) seen the soul in Aristotelian terms as the form of the body (bit of an explanation of this terminology here: faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/psyche.htm). For Aristotle, the soul could not really exist without the body. Thomas Aquinas had to gel his Aristotelianism with his Christian belief in eternal life so got round the issue by proposing that when the body dies, the soul becomes dormant until it is united with a new resurrection body.
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 5, 2021 18:31:38 GMT
How is the essence of you burning in Hell for all eternity? I assume this will be just a form of mental torture, because physical pain is linked to the body. If you're particularly thinking of Christian views on the soul, the popular idea of a mental-only, Cartesian "ghost in the machine" type soul you're eluding to here has largely been rejected by mainstream Christianity. Catholicism for instance has largely (via Thomas Aquinas) seen the soul in Aristotelian terms as the form of the body (bit of an explanation of this terminology here: faculty.washington.edu/smcohen/320/psyche.htm). For Aristotle, the soul could not really exist without the body. Thomas Aquinas had to gel his Aristotelianism with his Christian belief in eternal life so got round the issue by proposing that when the body dies, the soul becomes dormant until it is united with a new resurrection body.And people believe that?
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Post by moviemouth on Aug 5, 2021 18:35:37 GMT
As I go through life, there are certain events that only I remember. A good example would be that I almost hit a tree in my car while on my way back to college after spring break my junior year. Only I can remember the weather, where it was, and the time of day. My definition of my soul is any living thing that remembers that event. If life is eternal, then I will remember that event in my afterlife. My fear is that there will be no memory of that event after I die and therefore, my soul will die when the doctor signs my death certificate. Any hope that the soul continues to live is just a pipe dream.
I agree. I can't know for certain, but everything points to that anything that can be called YOU, ends when you die.
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