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Post by FilmFlaneur on Aug 20, 2021 23:16:21 GMT
... another chance to see the sort of society which emerges when religious fundamentalists and scriptural inerrantists get control of a country and turn it into a theocracy based on the word of God, literally taken. I am sure we can look forward to an expansion of women's rights; toleration, kindness, and morality in government, a modern forward-looking land full of happiness for all. But with religion in such acendancy there why do so many desperately want to leave? Don't they remember how well it worked out last time? Just selfish materialists perhaps, considering material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values. Shame on them I say.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Aug 20, 2021 23:43:42 GMT
I'm not in love with the Taliban taking over, but I dunno what else we can do, we spent 20 years (longest US war ever), countless deaths (both US soldiers and civilians) and $2 trillion (that's money that could have gone to infrastructure, education, healthcare, etc). And really for what? So a bunch of military contractors can line their pockets? It's not a pretty situation, but I don't see any other way out. As far as the religious element, while I'm not gonna deny Islamic radicalism plays a role (at the very least there probably be less suicide bombers if Islam wasn't a factor), but I can't help but wonder how much of it may have more to do with geopolitical factors (we've been bombing the area and siphoning their oil for decades)
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Post by drystyx on Aug 21, 2021 0:33:54 GMT
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Post by Isapop on Aug 21, 2021 13:49:57 GMT
Hey, it's not fair to hold up Afghanistan as the example of what happens when religious fundamentalists take over a country.
It's not as if they've got the right religion, you know.
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Aug 21, 2021 16:16:19 GMT
I'm not in love with the Taliban taking over, but I dunno what else we can do, we spent 20 years (longest US war ever), countless deaths (both US soldiers and civilians) and $2 trillion (that's money that could have gone to infrastructure, education, healthcare, etc). And really for what? So a bunch of military contractors can line their pockets? It's not a pretty situation, but I don't see any other way out. As far as the religious element, while I'm not gonna deny Islamic radicalism plays a role (at the very least there probably be less suicide bombers if Islam wasn't a factor), but I can't help but wonder how much of it may have more to do with geopolitical factors (we've been bombing the area and siphoning their oil for decades) Fair bit to unpack there... The US has a very long track record of invading countries with zero thought given to what happens after the invasion. And obviously Afghanistan was no exception to that rule. You'd think that eventually they would learn? But obviously that's too optimistic. Afghanistan has a long history of not being conquered. The British tried it when they had their Empire (and failed). The Soviet Union tried it (and failed). And now the US have tried it (and failed). Why are people surprised? Last people to succeed? I think it might have been Ghenghis Khan... If they'd wanted any chance of it succeeding then they would have had to have basically said "we're going to stay here for 40 or 50 years so a couple of generations can grow up in the country and see it working without Taliban rule" but that would have cost a lot. Both money and lives. And western politicians generally don't like spending that much. And (for all it's many, many faults) the Taliban is massively less corrupt than the people that the US put in charge there. So much money was disappearing into people's pockets it's not endearing yourself to the local population there either...
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Post by OpiateOfTheMasses on Aug 23, 2021 7:46:22 GMT
Fair bit to unpack there... The US has a very long track record of invading countries with zero thought given to what happens after the invasion. And obviously Afghanistan was no exception to that rule. You'd think that eventually they would learn? But obviously that's too optimistic. Afghanistan has a long history of not being conquered. The British tried it when they had their Empire (and failed). The Soviet Union tried it (and failed). And now the US have tried it (and failed). Why are people surprised? Last people to succeed? I think it might have been Ghenghis Khan... If they'd wanted any chance of it succeeding then they would have had to have basically said "we're going to stay here for 40 or 50 years so a couple of generations can grow up in the country and see it working without Taliban rule" but that would have cost a lot. Both money and lives. And western politicians generally don't like spending that much. And (for all it's many, many faults) the Taliban is massively less corrupt than the people that the US put in charge there. So much money was disappearing into people's pockets it's not endearing yourself to the local population there either... The success of the Marshall Plan has fooled us into believing all it takes is some goodwill and infrastructure freebies to win hearts and minds. However, despite their respective descents into madness, both Germany and Japan had population who knew when they were defeated. The Japanese culture has ways of handling their defeats. And Germany was split down the middle, so that prevented a replay of the post-WWI the "Jews and liberals have betrayed us" mindset. And the Marshall Plan cost a fortune. The equivalent of far more than they've spent on Afghanistan. Again - current politicians lack the will to force through things that they think will be unpopular with the public... Perhaps it was a bit easier in the time of the Marshall Plan because they could justify it as being a stalwart "against Communism" - but wasn't the invasion of Afghanistan all about being a stalwart "against Islamic extremism"?
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The Lost One
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@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Aug 26, 2021 14:43:39 GMT
As far as the religious element, while I'm not gonna deny Islamic radicalism plays a role (at the very least there probably be less suicide bombers if Islam wasn't a factor), but I can't help but wonder how much of it may have more to do with geopolitical factors (we've been bombing the area and siphoning their oil for decades) The fundamentalists would be there still without US (and allies) interference, but it's unlikely they would be so powerful. Afghanistan had a secular, progressive, socialist government which was deeply unpopular with the Islamic fundamentalists in the countryside and neighbouring nations. The CIA supported these groups in an effort to bring down the government (and then the Soviet allies who invaded in support of the government) and ultimately succeeded. Of course, the religious fundamentalists didn't really care for Westerners interfering in Afghanistan any more than they cared for socialists and Soviets and became extremely hostile to the USA and its allies, who were primarily interested in getting access to Afghanistan's markets and resources. Then the US invades, launches a massive propaganda campaign against Muslims, indirectly causes the heroin trade to flourish (one of the few successes of the Taliban had been managing to bring a halt to the massive heroin trade that emerged following the fall of the democratic government) and puts a deeply corrupt and unpopular puppet government in place - and the result is Afghans hate the West even more than they did before.
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Post by general313 on Aug 26, 2021 16:11:03 GMT
Hey, it's not fair to hold up Afghanistan as the example of what happens when religious fundamentalists take over a country. It's not as if they've got the right religion, you know. Yeah, I mean, we can be sure that would never happen if the religion were founded by a son of Abraham whose mother wasn't an Egyptian slave.
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basmaticathury
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Post by basmaticathury on Aug 26, 2021 18:15:09 GMT
The Taliban reach far back into Prophet Mohammad's behavior. They're emulating his days as a slaveholder and head slicer.
The secular world should not fear offending the billions of people who seemingly admire such a peaceful violent "prophet".
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Post by Morgana on Aug 31, 2021 9:07:20 GMT
This is what happens to a country whenever America invades it in the name of making peace. The Middle East is a mess because of American, and Western, meddling.
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Post by Sarge on Sept 1, 2021 1:59:12 GMT
We should have busted that country up and given a piece to everyone we don't like, and walked out. It's only a country because it's land no else wants.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Sept 1, 2021 10:09:57 GMT
It's only a country because it's land no else wants. Plenty of people would like a slice of its opium fields and mineral wealth. It's also a handy location for oil pipelines etc.
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Post by Sarge on Sept 1, 2021 20:24:41 GMT
It's only a country because it's land no else wants. Plenty of people would like a slice of its opium fields and mineral wealth. It's also a handy location for oil pipelines etc.
If you say so. Uncle Sugar is your Daddy.
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