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Post by mystery on Sept 21, 2021 21:04:43 GMT
Again, I’m not an Atheist. I’m not here to push an agenda or cause hate and arguments. One thing that bothers me is when kids get raped and murdered by a grown man. I worked at a prison. I counseled a guy who told me after he raped a little girl, he put her in a hole under his basement and handed her her little stuffed bunny before he shut her in. She died in that hole after he boarded it up. How does God let that happen. I know theologically you’ll say “we were born in sin, so nobody is innocent. The rain falls on the just and unjust.” However, if God intervenes in some peoples lives in the Bible. Then why not in a situation like that? My 2c as a non-Christian Theist... I view the basic purpose of life as spiritual evolution. We're all on a spectrum between animal and spirit, and growing through experience. Younger souls are closer to animal, driven more by instincts and hormones and emotions. Older souls are closer to Spirit, so they have fewer of the basic impulses and are more controlled and self possessed. I don't believe in a God like the typical Christian view, where God is somehow both a micromanager of reality, and yet also painfully distant and uninvolved. I believe that Divinity is in all things, but this place is the classroom, where we face challenges and learn through success and failure, and suffering. Every experience is growth, and our actions and behaviors will always come back to us eventually, until we finally learn all the lessons we need to learn here, and we can move on to whatever comes next. |
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Post by gadreel on Sept 22, 2021 2:12:12 GMT
I dont really believe I am talking to god, but asking god for favours and being grateful for what I have. Especially gratitude, evidence shows being grateful to an outside source is therapeutic the whole creation thing is not a belief in God per se, but my thoughts that the way to describe how the universe works makes most sense if we treat the universe as if it was intentional.
I find it is best not to assume the reason for the Universe. It is an unanswerable question and not knowing has never really bothered me. When it comes to that it is "I have no idea." That is just me though. I know many people need an answer, whether it is true or not. The unknown can be very scary. As for talking to "God" being therapeutic and you treating it as just a comfort thing that you don't actually attribute to a God, that I understand. That isn't crazy to me and makes sense considering how our brain operates. Ahh yeah, no I dont assume that there is a creator, as you say I really have no idea, I believe it is easier (and it fits my grand unified theory) if I treat the universe as if it's creation was intentional. So it's not a statement of belief per se.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 22, 2021 2:22:16 GMT
I find it is best not to assume the reason for the Universe. It is an unanswerable question and not knowing has never really bothered me. When it comes to that it is "I have no idea." That is just me though. I know many people need an answer, whether it is true or not. The unknown can be very scary. As for talking to "God" being therapeutic and you treating it as just a comfort thing that you don't actually attribute to a God, that I understand. That isn't crazy to me and makes sense considering how our brain operates. Ahh yeah, no I dont assume that there is a creator, as you say I really have no idea, I believe it is easier (and it fits my grand unified theory) if I treat the universe as if it's creation was intentional. So it's not a statement of belief per se.
I am curious as to why you find it is easier to treat the universe as if it's "creation" was intentional. I am assuming you are referring to only the version of the universe (space and time) we inhabit right now and not including a potential multiverse that is or isn't eternal. Easier in what sense?
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Post by gadreel on Sept 22, 2021 20:04:50 GMT
Ahh yeah, no I dont assume that there is a creator, as you say I really have no idea, I believe it is easier (and it fits my grand unified theory) if I treat the universe as if it's creation was intentional. So it's not a statement of belief per se.
I am curious as to why you find it is easier to treat the universe as if it's "creation" was intentional. I am assuming you are referring to only the version of the universe (space and time) we inhabit right now and not including a potential multiverse that is or isn't eternal. Easier in what sense? easier in that in fits my unified theory, I draw a lot as my base from the kybalion, and the two statements that encompass this are the all is everything and everything is in the all, and the all is mental. By viewing the creation process in a mental light it simply fits the rest of my world view, it's interesting for me in that this is not a statement of belief per se but more that this paradigm works for me.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 22, 2021 20:13:23 GMT
I am curious as to why you find it is easier to treat the universe as if it's "creation" was intentional. I am assuming you are referring to only the version of the universe (space and time) we inhabit right now and not including a potential multiverse that is or isn't eternal. Easier in what sense? easier in that in fits my unified theory, I draw a lot as my base from the kybalion, and the two statements that encompass this are the all is everything and everything is in the all, and the all is mental. By viewing the creation process in a mental light it simply fits the rest of my world view, it's interesting for me in that this is not a statement of belief per se but more that this paradigm works for me. So basically that all is in the mind of a mind? So you don't believe there is any material world that exists?
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Post by gadreel on Sept 22, 2021 21:51:17 GMT
easier in that in fits my unified theory, I draw a lot as my base from the kybalion, and the two statements that encompass this are the all is everything and everything is in the all, and the all is mental. By viewing the creation process in a mental light it simply fits the rest of my world view, it's interesting for me in that this is not a statement of belief per se but more that this paradigm works for me. So basically that all is in the mind of a mind? So you don't believe there is any material world that exists? sort of yeah, I'm saying the metaphysical theory I use says that this was all created with mental energy, that power manifests as physical world to us so there is no real distinction between if this reality is imagined (or created in a computer simulation) it is as real to us as we are to us.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 22, 2021 22:14:26 GMT
So basically that all is in the mind of a mind? So you don't believe there is any material world that exists? sort of yeah, I'm saying the metaphysical theory I use says that this was all created with mental energy, that power manifests as physical world to us so there is no real distinction between if this reality is imagined (or created in a computer simulation) it is as real to us as we are to us. I personally think taking a stance on what exactly reality is and how it came about is futile. I am familiar with most of the ideas, including simulation theory. Fun stuff to speculate about and cool for use in sci-fi and horror movies, but that is about it imo. I basically take no position on what the cause or base of existence is, because I am convinced that it is something that can't be known. This is part of why I am an atheist.
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Post by gadreel on Sept 22, 2021 22:25:36 GMT
sort of yeah, I'm saying the metaphysical theory I use says that this was all created with mental energy, that power manifests as physical world to us so there is no real distinction between if this reality is imagined (or created in a computer simulation) it is as real to us as we are to us. I personally think taking a stance on what exactly reality is and how it came about is futile. I am familiar with most of the ideas, including simulation theory. Fun stuff to speculate about and cool for use in sci-fi and horror movies, but that is about it imo. I basically take no position on what the cause or base of existence is, because I am convinced that it is something that can't be known. This is part of why I am an atheist. Fair enough, the nature of the interactivity of the universe is a fundamental part of my belief structure so this is more about a paradigm that fits what I see as opposed to taking a stance on how we came about. I know that is kind of fruity in some respects but it is more about a system of explanation that fits what I see as opposed to a statement of belief.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 22, 2021 22:34:18 GMT
I personally think taking a stance on what exactly reality is and how it came about is futile. I am familiar with most of the ideas, including simulation theory. Fun stuff to speculate about and cool for use in sci-fi and horror movies, but that is about it imo. I basically take no position on what the cause or base of existence is, because I am convinced that it is something that can't be known. This is part of why I am an atheist. Fair enough, the nature of the interactivity of the universe is a fundamental part of my belief structure so this is more about a paradigm that fits what I see as opposed to taking a stance on how we came about. I know that is kind of fruity in some respects but it is more about a system of explanation that fits what I see as opposed to a statement of belief. I don't understand. So you don't know if you believe it or not? I only go by what I believe. What I am convinced of. If I was to go with what fits the way I see things, it would be the boring "I believe we live in a material universe that is it's own thing and the effects of that produced consciousness at some point. But what caused the universe is something that it is impossible for me to have an idea about. At the same time I can't rule out simulation theory and stuff like that. That is the whole point. I don't think there is a way to rule out anything, though I think there is enough to rule out an intervening personal God.
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Post by gadreel on Sept 22, 2021 23:17:27 GMT
Fair enough, the nature of the interactivity of the universe is a fundamental part of my belief structure so this is more about a paradigm that fits what I see as opposed to taking a stance on how we came about. I know that is kind of fruity in some respects but it is more about a system of explanation that fits what I see as opposed to a statement of belief. I don't understand. So you don't know if you believe it or not? I only go by what I believe. What I am convinced of. If I was to go with what fits the way I see things, it would be the boring "I believe we live in a material universe that is it's own thing and the effects of that produced consciousness at some point. But what caused the universe is something that it is impossible for me to have an idea about. At the same time I can't rule out simulation theory and stuff like that. That is the whole point. I don't think there is a way to rule out anything, though I think there is enough to rule out an intervening personal God. At the end of the day I think I do believe in a God, but I am conscious that we simply don't know and so in that respect I am agnostic. But that is my belief in a personal god, which I hinted at earlier and is not something I can explain. What I am talking about here is that the theory I use to describe the universe postulates an intentional intelligent creation, so in the context of that there is a God, but that is not making any truth claims, simply that the method I use to describe the universe has a thinking event at it's creation. look I get that it is a strange stance, it's taken me a while to get here 
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 22, 2021 23:23:50 GMT
I don't understand. So you don't know if you believe it or not? I only go by what I believe. What I am convinced of. If I was to go with what fits the way I see things, it would be the boring "I believe we live in a material universe that is it's own thing and the effects of that produced consciousness at some point. But what caused the universe is something that it is impossible for me to have an idea about. At the same time I can't rule out simulation theory and stuff like that. That is the whole point. I don't think there is a way to rule out anything, though I think there is enough to rule out an intervening personal God. At the end of the day I think I do believe in a God, but I am conscious that we simply don't know and so in that respect I am agnostic. But that is my belief in a personal god, which I hinted at earlier and is not something I can explain. What I am talking about here is that the theory I use to describe the universe postulates an intentional intelligent creation, so in the context of that there is a God, but that is not making any truth claims, simply that the method I use to describe the universe has a thinking event at it's creation. look I get that it is a strange stance, it's taken me a while to get here Let me ask you another question? Why do you care? If there is no heaven or hell, then I don't even really care what the cause is and in order for me to believe there is a Heaven or Hell, it would need to be proved to me. This is me trying to pinpoint the difference in our outlooks and probably doing a poor job of it. If you were to learn that the way you seen the world is wrong, how would that change how you go about your life? That is the more interesting question.
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Post by gadreel on Sept 22, 2021 23:27:40 GMT
At the end of the day I think I do believe in a God, but I am conscious that we simply don't know and so in that respect I am agnostic. But that is my belief in a personal god, which I hinted at earlier and is not something I can explain. What I am talking about here is that the theory I use to describe the universe postulates an intentional intelligent creation, so in the context of that there is a God, but that is not making any truth claims, simply that the method I use to describe the universe has a thinking event at it's creation. look I get that it is a strange stance, it's taken me a while to get here Let me ask you another question? Why do you care? If there is no heaven or hell, then I don't even really care what the cause is and in order for me to believe there is a Heaven or Hell, it would need to be proved to me. This is me trying to pinpoint the difference in our outlooks and probably doing a poor job of it. Because part of my spiritual journey is a grand unified theory I use to make sense of the world, it helps me process things and gives me hope that I can deal with things because I have a comforting theory.
Right I dont believe in hell, I am still not convinced re heaven, but hell is incompatible with a loving God (at least the common Christian conception of hell), I bet our outlooks will end up just the same as me and an avowed atheist friend, we believe the same thing as each other as backed by science right up to the big bang, he says it was intentional, I say someone meant to
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 22, 2021 23:32:05 GMT
Let me ask you another question? Why do you care? If there is no heaven or hell, then I don't even really care what the cause is and in order for me to believe there is a Heaven or Hell, it would need to be proved to me. This is me trying to pinpoint the difference in our outlooks and probably doing a poor job of it. Because part of my spiritual journey is a grand unified theory I use to make sense of the world, it helps me process things and gives me hope that I can deal with things because I have a comforting theory.
Right I dont believe in hell, I am still not convinced re heaven, but hell is incompatible with a loving God (at least the common Christian conception of hell), I bet our outlooks will end up just the same as me and an avowed atheist friend, we believe the same thing as each other as backed by science right up to the big bang, he says it was intentional, I say someone meant to
Okay. There is the difference. I am a pessimist and somewhat nihilistic, or rather I find it maddening to even try to have an outlook when it comes to the metaphysical.
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Post by MooseNugget on Sept 23, 2021 5:41:08 GMT
God is not directly involved in the world, it never was. Miracles are wishful thinking. I'm an atheist but if there were a god this is probably the answer. Maybe God is a person watching a simulation play out. |
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Post by gadreel on Sept 23, 2021 6:47:01 GMT
Because part of my spiritual journey is a grand unified theory I use to make sense of the world, it helps me process things and gives me hope that I can deal with things because I have a comforting theory.
Right I dont believe in hell, I am still not convinced re heaven, but hell is incompatible with a loving God (at least the common Christian conception of hell), I bet our outlooks will end up just the same as me and an avowed atheist friend, we believe the same thing as each other as backed by science right up to the big bang, he says it was intentional, I say someone meant to
Okay. There is the difference. I am a pessimist and somewhat nihilistic, or rather I find it maddening to even try to have an outlook when it comes to the metaphysical. ok fair enough I am fighting depression and negative thinking and really struggling with this lockdown, so especially now its really important for me to be positive, when I am in a good space the belief structure helps me, I guess it helps me in a bad space too, but this time I am taking a much more fruity route.
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Post by moviemouth on Sept 23, 2021 13:54:09 GMT
Okay. There is the difference. I am a pessimist and somewhat nihilistic, or rather I find it maddening to even try to have an outlook when it comes to the metaphysical. ok fair enough I am fighting depression and negative thinking and really struggling with this lockdown, so especially now its really important for me to be positive, when I am in a good space the belief structure helps me, I guess it helps me in a bad space too, but this time I am taking a much more fruity route. understandable. I suffer from clinical depression.
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Post by gadreel on Sept 23, 2021 20:06:33 GMT
ok fair enough I am fighting depression and negative thinking and really struggling with this lockdown, so especially now its really important for me to be positive, when I am in a good space the belief structure helps me, I guess it helps me in a bad space too, but this time I am taking a much more fruity route. understandable. I suffer from clinical depression. As have I, I hope you are getting the support you need, it's an extraordinarily debilitating disease. I am finding these are working quite well
I know its super fruity, but to let you in. We are in week 6 of lockdown just after I started seeing a new woman, our lockdown restrictions are some of the harshest in the world and we managed to see each other in person the day before yesterday, my mental health has crashed in lo0ckdown as I am totally alone except for the fact that I parent 50% of the time, this has led to this woman asking us to put the relationship on hold for a bit, which just fucked me. I have spent the last 48 hours journalling and listening to things like this I would have rejected such actions a few months ago, but I am glad I let down my fruity guard.
Im not saying this will work for you, but I am saying there is a way out and I really encourage you to find it (sorry Im not trying to tell you how to suck eggs, I just know how awful depression can be and I don't want even a stranger on an internet board suffering)
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Post by captainbryce on Sept 24, 2021 3:38:46 GMT
Why do you think God would be compelled to act on behalf of rape victims? What part of your Bible suggests that God cares about people being raped enough to intervene in it? He can't intervene or the whole concept of free will becomes null. Satan's plan was to force humans to obey. That was rejected by God. Hence you have evil. There is no way to have free will and to make humans responsible for their actions, and yet also have god intervene in our daily affairs.
Would you prefer a universe where you have no free will? With free will you also get the fact that children or anyone might face horrendous torture and death.
What I “prefer” is irrelevant. Surely if there was an all-powerful god who existed, he doesn’t give a rats ass what anyone “prefers” except him. So what’s the point of even asking that. And children would also face horrendous torture and death whether free will exists or not. So again, that’s not relevant. The fact of the matter is, there is no such thing as free will; only the illusion of it. Free will is an “idea” (a concept people invented) to make themselves feel better about all of the things you don’t control. But even if we pretend that free will is a thing, and that the Bible supports it conceptually, what’s so goddamn important about free will that it’s worth children being raped and tortured, and people going to hell? Is free will actually worth that to you?
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Sept 25, 2021 16:23:36 GMT
Why do you think God would be compelled to act on behalf of rape victims? What part of your Bible suggests that God cares about people being raped enough to intervene in it? He can't intervene or the whole concept of free will becomes null. Satan's plan was to force humans to obey. That was rejected by God. Hence you have evil. There is no way to have free will and to make humans responsible for their actions, and yet also have god intervene in our daily affairs.
Would you prefer a universe where you have no free will? With free will you also get the fact that children or anyone might face horrendous torture and death.
I've never heard it explained quite like that. Within a mythology mindset, it makes sense. But I'm still an atheist; we evolved over a long period of time, things happened that we didn't understand (yet), and we called that 'god'. Now, as science explains more of how the world works, we have a conundrum - stay with the old legends and stories, or accept the scientific method. Odds are that the rapist was somewhere on the spectrum of genetics, brain chemistry, psychology and environment. Perhaps he had been abused in some way as a child, and/or he had brain damage or a genetic predisposition. But God, or Satan, had nothing to do with it. Seeing as they don't exist, except in our heads.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Sept 26, 2021 17:42:33 GMT
I've never heard it explained quite like that. Within a mythology mindset, it makes sense. But I'm still an atheist; we evolved over a long period of time, things happened that we didn't understand (yet), and we called that 'god'. Now, as science explains more of how the world works, we have a conundrum - stay with the old legends and stories, or accept the scientific method. Odds are that the rapist was somewhere on the spectrum of genetics, brain chemistry, psychology and environment. Perhaps he had been abused in some way as a child, and/or he had brain damage or a genetic predisposition. But God, or Satan, had nothing to do with it. Seeing as they don't exist, except in our heads. I was trying to explain why evil is permitted in terms of Christian theology.
I'm an atheist as well. But I believe there is some universal order which some might call "god". I'm not a nihilist.
Aha, my misunderstanding. I could see that it made sense (within Christian theology) but I shifted into atheist mode after that. Getting to be a habit...  As for nihilism, I've never really read up on it, so I just stick with my usual agnostic atheist label, and "it's not possible to KNOW" phrase, and try to dodge any discussion with apparent Theists in my daily life (except for here). I live surrounded by Evangelicals, and they can get kinda testy, so I make some non-committal statement and try to change the subject. My last-ditch dodge before I turn and walk away? "God works in mysterious ways..."
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