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Post by Skaathar on Oct 27, 2021 19:52:56 GMT
Thor's team was in full retreat, but he didn't seem that worried to me. Worried for his friends, they were in real trouble. "Father, let's fight them together," or something to that effect when Odin shows up. Not hoping for a way out. Anyway it's a poor comparison to bring up multiple situations of Thor needing help when CM has been in like three scenes outside of her own movie. I'm pretty sure they'd write it a similar way for her if she was a major part of multiple ensemble movies. Don't take my word for it, here: That's definitely a look of worry and consternation on his face. They were surrounded, cornered, heavily outnumbered, one of his team was severely injured, and he was clearly worried. Odin came in and saved them from further injury and harm. You can argue to what extent he would have been harmed, but it's undeniable that Odin prevented any further injury. Yeah sure, he wanted to fight them together with his father, but considering how powerful Odin was supposed to be then that easily explains Thor's new confidence. I don't see that this is a poor comparison when this scene happened in the very first Thor movie. One of many things that happened to Thor in the first movie that showed him being unable to overcome challenges on his own, unlike Captain Marvel. Thanos punched her WITH the power stone. On his own, Thanos was clearly losing to Carol. Again, never lost a fair fight. As for Thor being a chump, there's a difference. Him falling for Loki's illusion trick for the hundredth time? Yeah, that makes him a moron. A chump. But him getting sucker punched by Hulk right after they brought down a leviathan? That's not on him. That was him trusting a comrade and getting stabbed in the back. That's the same situation Carol was in when she tried to help someone she believed was a comrade only to get cheapshot. That's not on her. It's still not her losing a fair fight and it isn't really a low showing for her. It's not like she fell for something that was blatantly obvious. I'm not "trying too hard" anywhere. I am simply listing facts as they've happened in the movies. And how did that end up for her? She ended up getting powers and becoming one of the most powerful beings in the MCU. It's not really that much of a sacrifice. I'm not questioning her motivations, never did. I'm not saying she's not willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good, almost all MCU heroes are. I'm pointing out that the MOVIE did not show her making a sacrifice. Because ultimately her shooting that core ended up with her getting powers. That's not quite the same thing as Thor destroying the Bifrost so his movie ended with him being unable to reunite with Jane. Or Thor destroying Asgard to stop Hela. I mentioned it before, it's not Captain Marvel's power level that's the problem. Not exactly. It's also not her motivation or her heroicness. It's the way the movies handle her powers, motivation, challenges, development and overall character arc that's the problem. Oh I complained a LOT about Wanda taking out Thanos. Considering the fact that she had been struggling with Proxima just a day or so before. In fact I have loads of complaints about the power scaling of Endgame in general. But at least Wanda's handling of Thanos made a bit more sense. She managed to trap him at a distance where he was helpless against her. If Captain Marvel (or Thor or IM for that matter) just bombarded Thanos from a distance with long range attacks till he was knocked out I'd have zero problems with that. It's logical, since Thanos doesn't have long range attacks without the stones. That's how Wanda overpowered him. 1. Yes, Thor singlehandedly turning the battle of Wakanda is a lot more impressive. It was also something built up to and something Thor had to struggle extremely hard to achieve. Carol never had that development before she turned the tide in Endgame. 2. Carol was the ONLY hero Feige ever announced as being the strongest character in the MCU. Yes, that irritated me (as well as a huge number of fans) but not quite as much as you might think. It certainly does not mean that I wasn't open to still liking the character once her movie was out. I was very vocal about defending that movie prior to it releasing, even claiming that it was very likely to be a lot better than Wonder Woman... and I liked Wonder Woman. C'mon man, disagree with me as much as you want but I'm not that shallow. 3. She's still never lost a fair fight. You might think this is a non-issue but it's still true. She still hasn't made any substantial sacrifices. She's still never been truly hurt or in any significant danger. Taken individually, none of these are major factors. Put all together, it paints a different picture. In my defense, you did reply to me first and I guess I'm just replying to you? Saw I had missed a reply from you so I replied back.  But yes, we agreed to disagree. I'd appreciate it if we didn't go down the route of calling each other delusional or what not. I completely disagree with your stance on this but that doesn't mean I can't respect your argument. Let me sum up my thoughts into this: I have complaints about every MCU character, and each of those complaints usually aren't big enough to be deal breakers. Captain Marvel is no different. None of the individual complaints I raised about her are actually that big. But when taken together, there's more than enough issues here to justify why she ended up being the most divisive MCU character to date. In the end, it's not really how much ass she gets to kick compared to other heroes you should be questioning. It's whether she struggles as much as other heroes that's the question.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 27, 2021 23:23:11 GMT
Thor's team was in full retreat, but he didn't seem that worried to me. Worried for his friends, they were in real trouble. "Father, let's fight them together," or something to that effect when Odin shows up. Not hoping for a way out. Anyway it's a poor comparison to bring up multiple situations of Thor needing help when CM has been in like three scenes outside of her own movie. I'm pretty sure they'd write it a similar way for her if she was a major part of multiple ensemble movies. Don't take my word for it, here: That's definitely a look of worry and consternation on his face. They were surrounded, cornered, heavily outnumbered, one of his team was severely injured, and he was clearly worried. Odin came in and saved them from further injury and harm. You can argue to what extent he would have been harmed, but it's undeniable that Odin prevented any further injury. Yeah sure, he wanted to fight them together with his father, but considering how powerful Odin was supposed to be then that easily explains Thor's new confidence. I don't see that this is a poor comparison when this scene happened in the very first Thor movie. One of many things that happened to Thor in the first movie that showed him being unable to overcome challenges on his own, unlike Captain Marvel. Thanos punched her WITH the power stone. On his own, Thanos was clearly losing to Carol. Again, never lost a fair fight. As for Thor being a chump, there's a difference. Him falling for Loki's illusion trick for the hundredth time? Yeah, that makes him a moron. A chump. But him getting sucker punched by Hulk right after they brought down a leviathan? That's not on him. That was him trusting a comrade and getting stabbed in the back. That's the same situation Carol was in when she tried to help someone she believed was a comrade only to get cheapshot. That's not on her. It's still not her losing a fair fight and it isn't really a low showing for her. It's not like she fell for something that was blatantly obvious. I'm not "trying too hard" anywhere. I am simply listing facts as they've happened in the movies. And how did that end up for her? She ended up getting powers and becoming one of the most powerful beings in the MCU. It's not really that much of a sacrifice. I'm not questioning her motivations, never did. I'm not saying she's not willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good, almost all MCU heroes are. I'm pointing out that the MOVIE did not show her making a sacrifice. Because ultimately her shooting that core ended up with her getting powers. That's not quite the same thing as Thor destroying the Bifrost so his movie ended with him being unable to reunite with Jane. Or Thor destroying Asgard to stop Hela. I mentioned it before, it's not Captain Marvel's power level that's the problem. Not exactly. It's also not her motivation or her heroicness. It's the way the movies handle her powers, motivation, challenges, development and overall character arc that's the problem. Oh I complained a LOT about Wanda taking out Thanos. Considering the fact that she had been struggling with Proxima just a day or so before. In fact I have loads of complaints about the power scaling of Endgame in general. But at least Wanda's handling of Thanos made a bit more sense. She managed to trap him at a distance where he was helpless against her. If Captain Marvel (or Thor or IM for that matter) just bombarded Thanos from a distance with long range attacks till he was knocked out I'd have zero problems with that. It's logical, since Thanos doesn't have long range attacks without the stones. That's how Wanda overpowered him. 1. Yes, Thor singlehandedly turning the battle of Wakanda is a lot more impressive. It was also something built up to and something Thor had to struggle extremely hard to achieve. Carol never had that development before she turned the tide in Endgame. 2. Carol was the ONLY hero Feige ever announced as being the strongest character in the MCU. Yes, that irritated me (as well as a huge number of fans) but not quite as much as you might think. It certainly does not mean that I wasn't open to still liking the character once her movie was out. I was very vocal about defending that movie prior to it releasing, even claiming that it was very likely to be a lot better than Wonder Woman... and I liked Wonder Woman. C'mon man, disagree with me as much as you want but I'm not that shallow. 3. She's still never lost a fair fight. You might think this is a non-issue but it's still true. She still hasn't made any substantial sacrifices. She's still never been truly hurt or in any significant danger. Taken individually, none of these are major factors. Put all together, it paints a different picture. In my defense, you did reply to me first and I guess I'm just replying to you? Saw I had missed a reply from you so I replied back. But yes, we agreed to disagree. I'd appreciate it if we didn't go down the route of calling each other delusional or what not. I completely disagree with your stance on this but that doesn't mean I can't respect your argument. Let me sum up my thoughts into this: I have complaints about every MCU character, and each of those complaints usually aren't big enough to be deal breakers. Captain Marvel is no different. None of the individual complaints I raised about her are actually that big. But when taken together, there's more than enough issues here to justify why she ended up being the most divisive MCU character to date. In the end, it's not really how much ass she gets to kick compared to other heroes you should be questioning. It's whether she struggles as much as other heroes that's the question. I didn't say that was a poor comparison, I said using ten different examples from ten different movies is a poor comparison when the other character has barely appeared on screen outside of her own film. And I still disagree about Thor's level of concern, but this is beside the point. Before that look, he was completely demolishing Jotunheim and everything in it. What he was doing was displaying a power level no less than what is required to blow up starships. What the hell? She sacrificed herself not knowing she would gain immense power, it's identical to Thor's sacrifice at the end of his first film against the Destroyer. What did Thor actually sacrifice in his first movie? Not seeing Jane again? Guess what, CM chose to leave Earth at the end of her film, leaving behind her only friends, including a bestie she'd known for years as opposed to Thor's latest fling. Why doesn't that count, I mean besides because it was Captain Marvel and not Thor. Anything after that is irrelevant because she's only had one film, and had glorified cameos since. Do yourself a favor and look up the total screen time of Thor in the MCU compared to Captain Marvel, maybe then you'll realize why she hasn't had to deal with as many struggles. Holy cow.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 27, 2021 23:56:27 GMT
I didn't say that was a poor comparison, I said using ten different examples from ten different movies is a poor comparison when the other character has barely appeared on screen outside of her own film. And I still disagree about Thor's level of concern, but this is beside the point. Before that look, he was completely demolishing Jotunheim and everything in it. What he was doing was displaying a power level no less than what is required to blow up starships. What the hell? She sacrificed herself not knowing she would gain immense power, it's identical to Thor's sacrifice at the end of his first film against the Destroyer. What did Thor actually sacrifice in his first movie? Not seeing Jane again? Guess what, CM chose to leave Earth at the end of her film, leaving behind her only friends, including a bestie she'd known for years as opposed to Thor's latest fling. Why doesn't that count, I mean besides because it was Captain Marvel and not Thor. Anything after that is irrelevant because she's only had one film, and had glorified cameos since. Do yourself a favor and look up the total screen time of Thor in the MCU compared to Captain Marvel, maybe then you'll realize why she hasn't had to deal with as many struggles. Holy cow. Yes, Thor does have the advantage of having more films. Like I said, his power levels were developed through multiple films. In every film he gets a load of powerful showings... but he also gets his ass kicked regularly. Captain Marvel doesn't do that. She gets a lot of kickass scenes but almost no scenes where her ass gets kicked in a fair fight. The best example you've got is her sparring with Yon Rogg yet that still ended with her getting the upper hand. Thor, even in just his first movie, had a lot more balance of kicking ass and getting his ass kicked. Let me repeat that. Even if we only consider Thor's first movie, he still struggles way more than CM and needs help every now and then. Again, and I don't know in how many ways I can explain this, it's not about what Captain Marvel's intentions were. She might have completely been willing to sacrifice herself... that's not what I'm talking about. I don't question her heroicness. What I'm saying is that her movie did not make her shooting that core seem like a sacrifice, not in the same way that Thor sacrificed his life for the towns' people or how he sacrificed the Bifrost to save the Jotuns. Carol shooting that power core was never framed or highlighted in that manner, never given that kind of development or emphasis. Which is why I keep repeating that the writing for the movie was horrible. You already agreed with me that the writing for the movie was horrible, so I don't see why you can't agree that this in turn made the writing for the character horrible. Captain Marvel has had 1 movie and a little bit of showing in another. You keep using that as an excuse why she didn't get much development. Thing is, 1 movie is more than enough time for every other MCU character to get proper development. Thor, Cap, IM, BP, Spiderman, Dr. Strange... they all got more than enough development from just their first movies. Heck just compare CM to Black Panther or Dr. Strange who both have only had 1 movie each. Both have been shown to struggle with far more obstacles in their movies than CM did hers. This idea that you need 3+ movies in order to get a properly developed character is a poor excuse.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 28, 2021 0:33:59 GMT
I didn't say that was a poor comparison, I said using ten different examples from ten different movies is a poor comparison when the other character has barely appeared on screen outside of her own film. And I still disagree about Thor's level of concern, but this is beside the point. Before that look, he was completely demolishing Jotunheim and everything in it. What he was doing was displaying a power level no less than what is required to blow up starships. What the hell? She sacrificed herself not knowing she would gain immense power, it's identical to Thor's sacrifice at the end of his first film against the Destroyer. What did Thor actually sacrifice in his first movie? Not seeing Jane again? Guess what, CM chose to leave Earth at the end of her film, leaving behind her only friends, including a bestie she'd known for years as opposed to Thor's latest fling. Why doesn't that count, I mean besides because it was Captain Marvel and not Thor. Anything after that is irrelevant because she's only had one film, and had glorified cameos since. Do yourself a favor and look up the total screen time of Thor in the MCU compared to Captain Marvel, maybe then you'll realize why she hasn't had to deal with as many struggles. Holy cow. Yes, Thor does have the advantage of having more films. Like I said, his power levels were developed through multiple films. In every film he gets a load of powerful showings... but he also gets his ass kicked regularly. Captain Marvel doesn't do that. She gets a lot of kickass scenes but almost no scenes where her ass gets kicked in a fair fight. The best example you've got is her sparring with Yon Rogg yet that still ended with her getting the upper hand. Thor, even in just his first movie, had a lot more balance of kicking ass and getting his ass kicked. Let me repeat that. Even if we only consider Thor's first movie, he still struggles way more than CM and needs help every now and then. Again, and I don't know in how many ways I can explain this, it's not about what Captain Marvel's intentions were. She might have completely been willing to sacrifice herself... that's not what I'm talking about. I don't question her heroicness. What I'm saying is that her movie did not make her shooting that core seem like a sacrifice, not in the same way that Thor sacrificed his life for the towns' people or how he sacrificed the Bifrost to save the Jotuns. Carol shooting that power core was never framed or highlighted in that manner, never given that kind of development or emphasis. Which is why I keep repeating that the writing for the movie was horrible. You already agreed with me that the writing for the movie was horrible, so I don't see why you can't agree that this in turn made the writing for the character horrible. Captain Marvel has had 1 movie and a little bit of showing in another. You keep using that as an excuse why she didn't get much development. Thing is, 1 movie is more than enough time for every other MCU character to get proper development. Thor, Cap, IM, BP, Spiderman, Dr. Strange... they all got more than enough development from just their first movies. Heck just compare CM to Black Panther or Dr. Strange who both have only had 1 movie each. Both have been shown to struggle with far more obstacles in their movies than CM did hers. This idea that you need 3+ movies in order to get a properly developed character is a poor excuse. Even in her first movie, she gets beaten by Talos. She needs Fury's help to figure out what's going on. She sacrifices herself for the greater good, because she knows how dangerous that technology would be in the wrong hands. Her sacrifice is no less than Thor's. His movie (which also isn't great, by the way) is slightly better written, but it features the exact same story beats, whether you want to admit it or not. And he's immediately shown to be an alpha badass in Jotunheim, as opposed to CM having to wait until the end of her movie to do anything at all. I'm not making any excuses about character development because I was never talking about character development. You came up with a formula that says a character must sacrifice X and cannot have a power level above Y until Z. I proved that Thor is shown to have that kind of power immediately whereas she does nothing of the sort until the end of her film, yet somehow you think she didn't 'earn' her powers like Thor did. It's an incredible double standard and it's not even true. Everything after that is a false narrative you've invented to disparage the character for unknown reasons. "She had no idea the core would blow up." Then why did she shoot it? "Thor sacrificed more in his first film." CM sacrificed at least as much, if not more. She had to give up a friendship that went back years compared to Thor giving up a girl he just met. You even tried to argue the ramifications of CM's actions as if there were any consequences at all for Thor when he just showed right back up on Earth in Avengers. I liked this conversation better when it was just a rinse and repeat debate over how powerful those ships were that CM destroyed. You resorting to (I hate to say it) nonsense like this is a waste of both of our time. You think CM is overpowered, ok. That can actually be debated. The idea that she didn't sacrifice anything compared to Thor is laughable. Both of their debut films are lower tier Marvel flicks, and I'd agree Thor's is slightly better. But he doesn't make a greater sacrifice, doesn't earn anything in a way that CM does not. It's all right there on screen.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 28, 2021 2:45:26 GMT
Yes, Thor does have the advantage of having more films. Like I said, his power levels were developed through multiple films. In every film he gets a load of powerful showings... but he also gets his ass kicked regularly. Captain Marvel doesn't do that. She gets a lot of kickass scenes but almost no scenes where her ass gets kicked in a fair fight. The best example you've got is her sparring with Yon Rogg yet that still ended with her getting the upper hand. Thor, even in just his first movie, had a lot more balance of kicking ass and getting his ass kicked. Let me repeat that. Even if we only consider Thor's first movie, he still struggles way more than CM and needs help every now and then. Again, and I don't know in how many ways I can explain this, it's not about what Captain Marvel's intentions were. She might have completely been willing to sacrifice herself... that's not what I'm talking about. I don't question her heroicness. What I'm saying is that her movie did not make her shooting that core seem like a sacrifice, not in the same way that Thor sacrificed his life for the towns' people or how he sacrificed the Bifrost to save the Jotuns. Carol shooting that power core was never framed or highlighted in that manner, never given that kind of development or emphasis. Which is why I keep repeating that the writing for the movie was horrible. You already agreed with me that the writing for the movie was horrible, so I don't see why you can't agree that this in turn made the writing for the character horrible. Captain Marvel has had 1 movie and a little bit of showing in another. You keep using that as an excuse why she didn't get much development. Thing is, 1 movie is more than enough time for every other MCU character to get proper development. Thor, Cap, IM, BP, Spiderman, Dr. Strange... they all got more than enough development from just their first movies. Heck just compare CM to Black Panther or Dr. Strange who both have only had 1 movie each. Both have been shown to struggle with far more obstacles in their movies than CM did hers. This idea that you need 3+ movies in order to get a properly developed character is a poor excuse. Even in her first movie, she gets beaten by Talos. She needs Fury's help to figure out what's going on. She sacrifices herself for the greater good, because she knows how dangerous that technology would be in the wrong hands. Her sacrifice is no less than Thor's. His movie (which also isn't great, by the way) is slightly better written, but it features the exact same story beats, whether you want to admit it or not. And he's immediately shown to be an alpha badass in Jotunheim, as opposed to CM having to wait until the end of her movie to do anything at all. I'm not making any excuses about character development because I was never talking about character development. You came up with a formula that says a character must sacrifice X and cannot have a power level above Y until Z. I proved that Thor is shown to have that kind of power immediately whereas she does nothing of the sort until the end of her film, yet somehow you think she didn't 'earn' her powers like Thor did. It's an incredible double standard and it's not even true. Everything after that is a false narrative you've invented to disparage the character for unknown reasons. "She had no idea the core would blow up." Then why did she shoot it? "Thor sacrificed more in his first film." CM sacrificed at least as much, if not more. She had to give up a friendship that went back years compared to Thor giving up a girl he just met. You even tried to argue the ramifications of CM's actions as if there were any consequences at all for Thor when he just showed right back up on Earth in Avengers. I liked this conversation better when it was just a rinse and repeat debate over how powerful those ships were that CM destroyed. You resorting to (I hate to say it) nonsense like this is a waste of both of our time. You think CM is overpowered, ok. That can actually be debated. The idea that she didn't sacrifice anything compared to Thor is laughable. Both of their debut films are lower tier Marvel flicks, and I'd agree Thor's is slightly better. But he doesn't make a greater sacrifice, doesn't earn anything in a way that CM does not. It's all right there on screen. She gets beaten by Talos? When did Captain Marvel ever fight Talos? I can address the rest of your points but not if we're at a point where we're completely making up scenes.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Oct 29, 2021 0:13:20 GMT
Does naming the Captain Marvel sequel "The Marvels" instead of "Captain Marvel 2" or "Captain Marvel subtitle" insinuate a lack of confidence in Captain Marvel? It does to me! If They had confidence in Captain Marvel as a brand they would just name it that, wouldn't they?! After all, they named Shang Chi - SHANG CHI! Why wouldn't they name this "Captain Marvel 2" or "Captain Marvel subtitle"? And before you say it... I realize that new characters are going to be included. Monica Rambeau and Kamala Khan; but those characters are introduced in Disney+ shows. IMO that only furthers suggests they don't have complete faith in "Captain Marvel" on her own. Thoughts? I look at it slightly differently. No, not naming it CM 2 doesn’t show a lack of confidence… because what I think is happening has happened before. Man of Steel! I believe this is not CM 2 but instead kind of a mini-Avengers movie, not unlike BvS (but they probably won’t fight each other). So in essence, they’re making a team up movie as the follow up to Captain Marvel, which isn’t a discredit to the name CM2. The discredit to CM2 is that they decided against making it at all. They believe this is the preferred path for the character’s franchise, and I don’t disagree with that. I see what you're saying, but to use Man of Steel as our continued example, or better yet, when they put Superman's name second in the title of the Batman V Superman movie, I felt the same way... a lack of confidence in Superman. And that has borne out. I guess we'll see, but IMO I'm not feeling the love. If they want to keep pushing the idea of Captain Marvel as their new number 1 (especially now that they cant use Chadwick Boseman/Black Panther that way) they need to keep that name relevant. And there's no better way than to put it right up there in the title of said characters own sequel. I mean, they didn't diss any of the other characters that way in their sequels. Even Ant Mans name is first in his sequels title. They're not calling Spiderman's next movie, the Spiders.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 29, 2021 17:12:39 GMT
Even in her first movie, she gets beaten by Talos. She needs Fury's help to figure out what's going on. She sacrifices herself for the greater good, because she knows how dangerous that technology would be in the wrong hands. Her sacrifice is no less than Thor's. His movie (which also isn't great, by the way) is slightly better written, but it features the exact same story beats, whether you want to admit it or not. And he's immediately shown to be an alpha badass in Jotunheim, as opposed to CM having to wait until the end of her movie to do anything at all. I'm not making any excuses about character development because I was never talking about character development. You came up with a formula that says a character must sacrifice X and cannot have a power level above Y until Z. I proved that Thor is shown to have that kind of power immediately whereas she does nothing of the sort until the end of her film, yet somehow you think she didn't 'earn' her powers like Thor did. It's an incredible double standard and it's not even true. Everything after that is a false narrative you've invented to disparage the character for unknown reasons. "She had no idea the core would blow up." Then why did she shoot it? "Thor sacrificed more in his first film." CM sacrificed at least as much, if not more. She had to give up a friendship that went back years compared to Thor giving up a girl he just met. You even tried to argue the ramifications of CM's actions as if there were any consequences at all for Thor when he just showed right back up on Earth in Avengers. I liked this conversation better when it was just a rinse and repeat debate over how powerful those ships were that CM destroyed. You resorting to (I hate to say it) nonsense like this is a waste of both of our time. You think CM is overpowered, ok. That can actually be debated. The idea that she didn't sacrifice anything compared to Thor is laughable. Both of their debut films are lower tier Marvel flicks, and I'd agree Thor's is slightly better. But he doesn't make a greater sacrifice, doesn't earn anything in a way that CM does not. It's all right there on screen. She gets beaten by Talos? When did Captain Marvel ever fight Talos? I can address the rest of your points but not if we're at a point where we're completely making up scenes. Whoever the fuck gets the drop on her at the beginning. I've brought it up 15 times and you're just now pretending to not know what I'm talking about? Making stuff up would be you saying she didn't know what would happen if she shot the energy core, or pretending Thor gave anything up in his film. This was a desperate post on your part and you know it.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 29, 2021 17:21:36 GMT
She gets beaten by Talos? When did Captain Marvel ever fight Talos? I can address the rest of your points but not if we're at a point where we're completely making up scenes. Whoever the fuck gets the drop on her at the beginning. I've brought it up 15 times and you're just now pretending to not know what I'm talking about? Making stuff up would be you saying she didn't know what would happen if she shot the energy core, or pretending Thor gave anything up in his film. This was a desperate post on your part and you know it. Saying Carol gets beaten by Talos is like me sneaking up on Mike Tyson, smashing him with a baseball bat while he isn't looking, then claiming I beat Mike Tyson. Carol was helping who she thought was a friend then got tasered while her guard was down. . That would be a pretty dishonest interpretation of saying someone "defeated" somebody. Besides, I never said Carol never lost a fight. I said she never lost a fair fight. Is that what you'd consider a fair fight? As for shooting the energy core, not everything explodes when you shoot it you know. Not even power sources. Even nuclear warheads or C4 bombs won't explode if you shot at them. Aircraft engines certainly don't always explode when you shoot at them, and since she has no idea what this thing is then it's only logical that she wouldn't know what exactly would happen if she shot it. Her shooting it was her trying to destroy what Yon Rogg was trying to acquire. It's not like she had an idea of what the blast yield was. That's just an assumption on your part. What isn't an assumption is the fact that Thor knew he wouldn't be able to easily travel back to Earth and Jane Foster when he destroyed the Bifrost. Are you going to claim that this was not a sacrifice on his part? Besides, you just keep ignoring what I said before. I'm not questioning Carol's motivations (something I've mentioned for the hundredth time). Whether she wanted to sacrifice herself or not is not the point I'm making. I'm saying the movie never made it feel or look like a sacrifice... which brings us back to the main issue of her getting to be overpowered without really facing any serious challenges or sacrifices. Heck, just look at your example of Talos "beating" her. If that's the best example you have of someone "beating" Carol then it just makes her all the more a Mary Sue... since it's like saying the only way to beat her is to use a cheap shot.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 29, 2021 17:50:22 GMT
Whoever the fuck gets the drop on her at the beginning. I've brought it up 15 times and you're just now pretending to not know what I'm talking about? Making stuff up would be you saying she didn't know what would happen if she shot the energy core, or pretending Thor gave anything up in his film. This was a desperate post on your part and you know it. Saying Carol gets beaten by Talos is like me sneaking up on Mike Tyson, smashing him with a baseball bat while he isn't looking, then claiming I beat Mike Tyson. Carol was helping who she thought was a friend then got tasered while her guard was down. . That would be a pretty dishonest interpretation of saying someone "defeated" somebody. Besides, I never said Carol never lost a fight. I said she never lost a fair fight. Is that what you'd consider a fair fight? Because if it's not, why bring it up multiple times? As for shooting the energy core, not everything explodes when you shoot it you know. Not even power sources. Her shooting it was her trying to destroy what Yon Rogg was trying to acquire. It's not like she had an idea of what the blast yield was. That's just an assumption on your part. I mean, what's the more logical explanation here: 1. Carol shot the power core to stop Yon Rogg from acquiring it? 2. Carol shot the power core (which she's never seen before and have no idea of) so it can create a big explosion to kill them both? Besides, you just keep ignoring what I said before. I'm not questioning Carol's motivations (something I've mentioned for the hundredth time). Whether she wanted to sacrifice herself or not is not the point I'm making. I'm saying the movie never made it feel or look like a sacrifice... which brings us back to the main issue of her getting to be overpowered without really facing any serious challenges or sacrifices. Heck, just look at your example of Talos "defeating" her. If that's the extent that someone "defeats" Carol then it just makes her all the more a Mary Sue... since it's like saying the only way to beat her is to use a cheap shot. I've addressed it multiple times. Her hero's journey is virtually identical to Thor's, she just doesn't get to kick as much ass at the beginning of her movie. I can't argue your perception. If you don't think it 'felt like a sacrifice,' so be it. But at the end of the day, she intended to sacrifice herself for the greater good, as Thor did, and at the end she left her closest friends behind. She sacrificed at least as much as Thor. It didn't resonate with you, I get that. This movie didn't resonate that much with me, either. But the stuff still happened. I never said it was a great movie, I'm only pointing out the similar story beats. - I don't think she's overpowered (This is an opinion, heavily supported by what we've seen throughout the entirety of the MCU) - She sacrificed as much as Thor did (This is a fact based on we see onscreen) You can disagree with the first point, that's fine. The second one is inarguable to anyone actually comparing the two films fairly (and remembering it's disingenuous to bring up the character development that happens across multiple films when one of the characters only has one film and a couple of cameos). It didn't 'feel like a sacrifice' to you is not something I can disprove, because that's your opinion. Everything else I agree with. Her film is not well written, it feels rushed, and the amnesia subplot makes it hard to warm up to the character. All I'm saying is that doesn't mean she didn't sacrifice anything or have to work to achieve her full potential. There's a nuance to her story that goes beyond the standard superhero origin. There are scenes that beat you over the head with the feminist messaging, but there's also really clever stuff built into her story, such as Carol being told she's too emotional or constant gaslighting to 'keep her in her place.' It's the kind of stuff that I cannot relate to as a man but resonated profoundly with women. I think that's why we don't like the movie as much, the message wasn't necessarily for us. We can appreciate what they were going for even if we don't connect to it in the same way, but yeah, they could've done a better job with this character. All that being said, I never saw her as a Mary Sue that can't be beaten. As far as I'm concerned, she hasn't faced enough adversity at full power to know what to think of her power ranking. Maybe when she accumulates as much screen time as Thor, we'll feel differently about her.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 29, 2021 18:03:16 GMT
Saying Carol gets beaten by Talos is like me sneaking up on Mike Tyson, smashing him with a baseball bat while he isn't looking, then claiming I beat Mike Tyson. Carol was helping who she thought was a friend then got tasered while her guard was down. . That would be a pretty dishonest interpretation of saying someone "defeated" somebody. Besides, I never said Carol never lost a fight. I said she never lost a fair fight. Is that what you'd consider a fair fight? Because if it's not, why bring it up multiple times? As for shooting the energy core, not everything explodes when you shoot it you know. Not even power sources. Her shooting it was her trying to destroy what Yon Rogg was trying to acquire. It's not like she had an idea of what the blast yield was. That's just an assumption on your part. I mean, what's the more logical explanation here: 1. Carol shot the power core to stop Yon Rogg from acquiring it? 2. Carol shot the power core (which she's never seen before and have no idea of) so it can create a big explosion to kill them both? Besides, you just keep ignoring what I said before. I'm not questioning Carol's motivations (something I've mentioned for the hundredth time). Whether she wanted to sacrifice herself or not is not the point I'm making. I'm saying the movie never made it feel or look like a sacrifice... which brings us back to the main issue of her getting to be overpowered without really facing any serious challenges or sacrifices. Heck, just look at your example of Talos "defeating" her. If that's the extent that someone "defeats" Carol then it just makes her all the more a Mary Sue... since it's like saying the only way to beat her is to use a cheap shot. I've addressed it multiple times. Her hero's journey is virtually identical to Thor's, she just doesn't get to kick as much ass at the beginning of her movie. I can't argue your perception. If you don't think it 'felt like a sacrifice,' so be it. But at the end of the day, she intended to sacrifice herself for the greater good, as Thor did, and at the end she left her closest friends behind. She sacrificed at least as much as Thor. It didn't resonate with you, I get that. This movie didn't resonate that much with me, either. But the stuff still happened. I never said it was a great movie, I'm only pointing out the similar story beats. - I don't think she's overpowered (This is an opinion, heavily supported by what we've seen throughout the entirety of the MCU)
- She sacrificed as much as Thor did (This is a fact based on we see onscreen) You can disagree with the first point, that's fine. The second one is inarguable to anyone actually comparing the two films fairly (and remembering it's disingenuous to bring up the character development that happens across multiple films when one of the characters only has one film and a couple of cameos). It didn't 'feel like a sacrifice' to you is not something I can disprove, because that's your opinion. Everything else I agree with. Her film is not well written, it feels rushed, and the amnesia subplot makes it hard to warm up to the character. All I'm saying is that doesn't mean she didn't sacrifice anything or have to work to achieve her full potential. There's a nuance to her story that goes beyond the standard superhero origin. There are scenes that beat you over the head with the feminist messaging, but there's also really clever stuff built into her story, such as Carol being told she's too emotional or constant gaslighting to 'keep her in her place.' It's the kind of stuff that I cannot relate to as a man but resonated profoundly with women. I think that's why we don't like the movie as much, the message wasn't necessarily for us. We can appreciate what they were going for even if we don't connect to it in the same way, but yeah, they could've done a better job with this character. All that being said, I never saw her as a Mary Sue that can't be beaten. As far as I'm concerned, she hasn't faced enough adversity at full power to know what to think of her power ranking. Maybe when she accumulates as much screen time as Thor, we'll feel differently about her. Let's focus on these two points for a bit. You don't think she's overpowered and you think she sacrificed just as much as Thor did in their respective first movies. Fine. What you're missing in this analysis is the fact that Thor was nowhere near as powerful as Captain Marvel was in their respective first movies. Sure Thor was still pretty badass, but not quite the intergalactic powerhouse that Carol was. Thor eventually came to be that powerful... but only after multiple movies where he went through a tremendous amount of trials and sacrifices. Carol managed to get to her current OP state by the end of her first movie. And if the most sacrifice that she had to do to reach that state was her shooting an unknown power source and decided to leave a friend she hadn't seen in 5 years... well then those are ridiculously low stakes compared to the things Thor has had to sacrifice to achieve his power levels. I'm fine comparing only their respective first movies if we're simply discussing sacrifices. But if you're going to try to defend whether she's overpowered or not, then you have to take into consideration all the MCU movies because she managed to become one of the (if not the) most powerful MCU heroes after only 1 movie whereas other powerhouses had to work up to their levels with a lot more development.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 29, 2021 18:26:04 GMT
Let's focus on these two points for a bit. You don't think she's overpowered and you think she sacrificed just as much as Thor did in their respective first movies. Fine. What you're missing in this analysis is the fact that Thor was nowhere near as powerful as Captain Marvel was in their respective first movies. Sure Thor was still pretty badass, but not quite the intergalactic powerhouse that Carol was. Thor eventually came to be that powerful... but only after multiple movies where he went through a tremendous amount of trials and sacrifices. Carol managed to get to her current OP state by the end of her first movie. And if the most sacrifice that she had to do to reach that state was her shooting an unknown power source and decided to leave a friend she hadn't seen in 5 years... well then those are ridiculously low stakes compared to the things Thor has had to sacrifice to achieve his power levels. I'm fine comparing only their respective first movies if we're simply discussing sacrifices. But if you're going to try to defend whether she's overpowered or not, then you have to take into consideration all the MCU movies because she managed to become one of the (if not the) most powerful MCU heroes after only 1 movie whereas other powerhouses had to work up to their levels with a lot more development. Dude, we've talked this to death. Thor starts his movie off by demolishing an entire realm. Shattering the ground beneath his feet, tossing giants like ragdolls, blowing a hole through a giant creature's head. Like it was nothing. After two hours of running around doing nothing, Carol finally achieves her full potential and blows up some spaceships. The only time she was overpowered in my estimation was in Endgame, which we both agree is a total mess. She was overpowered, so was stoneless Thanos, so was Wanda. Thor was underpowered, Hulk did nothing, Pepper is a master combatant in IM armor, etc. That movie has a lot of problems.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 29, 2021 19:12:13 GMT
Let's focus on these two points for a bit. You don't think she's overpowered and you think she sacrificed just as much as Thor did in their respective first movies. Fine. What you're missing in this analysis is the fact that Thor was nowhere near as powerful as Captain Marvel was in their respective first movies. Sure Thor was still pretty badass, but not quite the intergalactic powerhouse that Carol was. Thor eventually came to be that powerful... but only after multiple movies where he went through a tremendous amount of trials and sacrifices. Carol managed to get to her current OP state by the end of her first movie. And if the most sacrifice that she had to do to reach that state was her shooting an unknown power source and decided to leave a friend she hadn't seen in 5 years... well then those are ridiculously low stakes compared to the things Thor has had to sacrifice to achieve his power levels. I'm fine comparing only their respective first movies if we're simply discussing sacrifices. But if you're going to try to defend whether she's overpowered or not, then you have to take into consideration all the MCU movies because she managed to become one of the (if not the) most powerful MCU heroes after only 1 movie whereas other powerhouses had to work up to their levels with a lot more development. Dude, we've talked this to death. Thor starts his movie off by demolishing an entire realm. Shattering the ground beneath his feet, tossing giants like ragdolls, blowing a hole through a giant creature's head. Like it was nothing. After two hours of running around doing nothing, Carol finally achieves her full potential and blows up some spaceships. The only time she was overpowered in my estimation was in Endgame, which we both agree is a total mess. She was overpowered, so was stoneless Thanos, so was Wanda. Thor was underpowered, Hulk did nothing, Pepper is a master combatant in IM armor, etc. That movie has a lot of problems. No, Thor did not demolish an entire realm. Let's please not exaggerate. He was beating up an impressive amount of ground troops (frost giants) with the help of his friends, then he finished that off with a lightning strike that demolished a good amount of ground, but it only spread that wide because the ice started to crack. That wasn't his lightning being so powerful that it destroyed acres of land. The shockwave from his initial strike seemed to spread only about a hundred meters outward max then afterwards it was just a chain reaction of ice breaking down. Besides, he didn't even win that fight. In the end, Odin needed to come in to save him and his comrades from further injury. Don't get me wrong, Thor's performance was definitely impressive, but that's still quite different from Carol completely smashing through Yon Rogg's forces, nearly destroying Ronan's entire fleet singlehandedly, throwing Ronan's nuke back at him, and pretty much sending the entire Kree invasion party into full retreat. Remember that the Frost Giants weren't exactly retreating from Thor. And those weren't just "some" spaceships that Carol took out. You make it sound like they were just simple cars or something. Any one of those ships could have easily killed multiple frost giants with a strafing run. Killing multiple frost giants and killing multiple Kree ships is not quite at the same magnitude. By the end of their respective first movies, Thor and Carol were definitely not in the same powerclass. Thor was powerful enough to demolish a big number of ground troops. Carol was powerful enough to destroy an entire fleet.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 29, 2021 19:44:02 GMT
Dude, we've talked this to death. Thor starts his movie off by demolishing an entire realm. Shattering the ground beneath his feet, tossing giants like ragdolls, blowing a hole through a giant creature's head. Like it was nothing. After two hours of running around doing nothing, Carol finally achieves her full potential and blows up some spaceships. The only time she was overpowered in my estimation was in Endgame, which we both agree is a total mess. She was overpowered, so was stoneless Thanos, so was Wanda. Thor was underpowered, Hulk did nothing, Pepper is a master combatant in IM armor, etc. That movie has a lot of problems. No, Thor did not demolish an entire realm. Let's please not exaggerate. He was beating up a bunch of fodder which every single MCU hero does regularly, then he finished that off with a lightning strike that demolished a good amount of ground, but it only spread that wide because the ice started to crack. That wasn't his lightning being so powerful that it destroyed acres of land. The shockwave from his initial strike seemed to spread about a hundred meters outward then afterwards it was just a chain reaction of ice breaking down. Besides, he didn't even win that fight. In the end, Odin needed to come in to save him and his comrades from further injury. That's quite different from Carol completely smashing through Yon Rogg's forces, nearly destroying Ronan's entire fleet singlehandedly, throwing Ronan's nuke back at him, and pretty much sending the entire Kree invasion party into full retreat. Any one of those ships could have easily killed multiple frost giants with a strafing run. By the end of their respective first movies, Thor and Carol's power levels were nowhere similar. Thor was powerful enough to demolish a big number of ground troops. Carol was powerful enough to destroy an entire fleet. I disagree, that's all there is to it. Demolishing the very ground you walk on while launching giant after giant with hammer strikes and then blowing through a massive creature's head is every bit as powerful as blowing up some ships. Look at this scene and tell me he isn't absolutely laying waste to the place, particularly from the 3:27 mark on. Holy shit! And it's awesome! And it happened at the beginning of his movie! And nobody complained! Because Kevin Feige didn't tell you Thor was the strongest hero by far before his movie came out. Now watch this. Did Yon Rogg not send her flying off his ship? You pointed out Thor looked worried before Odin showed up. His friends were in deep shit (one of them was gravely injured), meanwhile he was literally bringing down the house and blasting his way through giant creatures like they were made out of paper. Who do you think he was worried for? Carol sure looks worried to me as she's falling to her death. Anyway, she takes a couple of good shots from the bad guys, then proceeds to make mincemeat out of them...kind of like Thor in that scene, eh? Instead of destroying the realm itself (not just 'ground troops'), she's just blowing up ships (it was actually just the one battleship and a bunch of fighters that she destroyed). Holy shit! And it's awesome! And it happened at the end of her movie, after she sacrificed herself for the greater good, and almost died unlocking her potential. And everyone complained because Feige said she was the most powerful hero by far.
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Post by Skaathar on Oct 29, 2021 20:21:31 GMT
No, Thor did not demolish an entire realm. Let's please not exaggerate. He was beating up a bunch of fodder which every single MCU hero does regularly, then he finished that off with a lightning strike that demolished a good amount of ground, but it only spread that wide because the ice started to crack. That wasn't his lightning being so powerful that it destroyed acres of land. The shockwave from his initial strike seemed to spread about a hundred meters outward then afterwards it was just a chain reaction of ice breaking down. Besides, he didn't even win that fight. In the end, Odin needed to come in to save him and his comrades from further injury. That's quite different from Carol completely smashing through Yon Rogg's forces, nearly destroying Ronan's entire fleet singlehandedly, throwing Ronan's nuke back at him, and pretty much sending the entire Kree invasion party into full retreat. Any one of those ships could have easily killed multiple frost giants with a strafing run. By the end of their respective first movies, Thor and Carol's power levels were nowhere similar. Thor was powerful enough to demolish a big number of ground troops. Carol was powerful enough to destroy an entire fleet. I disagree, that's all there is to it. Demolishing the very ground you walk on while launching giant after giant with hammer strikes and then blowing through a massive creature's head is every bit as powerful as blowing up some ships. Look at this scene and tell me he isn't absolutely laying waste to the place, particularly from the 3:27 mark on. Holy shit! And it's awesome! And it happened at the beginning of his movie! And nobody complained! Because Kevin Feige didn't tell you Thor was the strongest hero by far before his movie came out. Now watch this. Did Yon Rogg not send her flying off his ship? You pointed out Thor looked worried before Odin showed up. His friends were in deep shit (one of them was gravely injured), meanwhile he was literally bringing down the house and blasting his way through giant creatures like they were made out of paper. Who do you think he was worried for? Carol sure looks worried to me as she's falling to her death. Anyway, she takes a couple of good shots from the bad guys, then proceeds to make mincemeat out of them...kind of like Thor in that scene, eh? Instead of destroying the realm itself (not just 'ground troops'), she's just blowing up ships (it was actually just the one battleship and a bunch of fighters that she destroyed). Holy shit! And it's awesome! And it happened at the end of her movie, after she sacrificed herself for the greater good, and almost died unlocking her potential. And everyone complained because Feige said she was the most powerful hero by far. Yeah Carol looked worried when she was falling. Then guess what? She figured out she could fly and saved herself then proceeded to beat the crap out of Ronan's fleet. When Thor looked worried that the Frost Giants had him and his friends surrounded, guess what happened next? Odin came in to save him then shortly proceeded to strip him of his powers and banish him to earth where he gets humiliated multiple times. You also seem to have completely ignored the fact that the ice breaking in Jotunheim was more a cascade effect that purely due to Thor's lightning. Yeah, it was an awesome scene but it's not at the level displayed by Carol. And even if they were at the same power level (they weren't but whatever) you're missing the fact that Thor ended up being brought down, humiliated and punished right after that scene. Things that Carol never had to go through with. And with all that said, you really need to stop with this whole "because Feige said she was the most powerful hero by far". I'm not interested in discussing conspiracy theories with you. I already explained my stance on that particular topic. If you want to keep questioning me on my criticisms of Captain Marvel then at least do me the favor of listening to what I'm saying. You don't have to agree with me but at least don't try to invent my reasons for me, especially not if they boil down to such a petty statement as "Well you only hate her because Feige announced her as the most powerful hero and you didn't like that." No, no I don't hate her just for that. I've written paragraphs worth of explanation these last few pages to describe what my issue was and it wasn't that. Note that I'm not forcing you to agree or disagree with me. But you responded to me and attacked my stance and all I'm doing here is defending my stance. I wasn't the one who attacked your argument.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Oct 29, 2021 20:30:06 GMT
I disagree, that's all there is to it. Demolishing the very ground you walk on while launching giant after giant with hammer strikes and then blowing through a massive creature's head is every bit as powerful as blowing up some ships. Look at this scene and tell me he isn't absolutely laying waste to the place, particularly from the 3:27 mark on. Holy shit! And it's awesome! And it happened at the beginning of his movie! And nobody complained! Because Kevin Feige didn't tell you Thor was the strongest hero by far before his movie came out. Now watch this. Did Yon Rogg not send her flying off his ship? You pointed out Thor looked worried before Odin showed up. His friends were in deep shit (one of them was gravely injured), meanwhile he was literally bringing down the house and blasting his way through giant creatures like they were made out of paper. Who do you think he was worried for? Carol sure looks worried to me as she's falling to her death. Anyway, she takes a couple of good shots from the bad guys, then proceeds to make mincemeat out of them...kind of like Thor in that scene, eh? Instead of destroying the realm itself (not just 'ground troops'), she's just blowing up ships (it was actually just the one battleship and a bunch of fighters that she destroyed). Holy shit! And it's awesome! And it happened at the end of her movie, after she sacrificed herself for the greater good, and almost died unlocking her potential. And everyone complained because Feige said she was the most powerful hero by far. Yeah Carol looked worried when she was falling. Then guess what? She figured out she could fly and saved herself then proceeded to beat the crap out of Ronan's fleet. When Thor looked worried that the Frost Giants had him and his friends surrounded, guess what happened next? Odin came in to save him then shortly proceeded to strip him of his powers and banish him to earth where he gets humiliated multiple times. You also seem to have completely ignored the fact that the ice breaking in Jotunheim was more a cascade effect that purely due to Thor's lightning. Yeah, it was an awesome scene but it's not at the level displayed by Carol. And even if they were at the same power level (they weren't but whatever) you're missing the fact that Thor ended up being brought down, humiliated and punished right after that scene. Things that Carol never had to go through with. And with all that said, you really need to stop with this whole "because Feige said she was the most powerful hero by far". I'm not interested in discussing conspiracy theories with you. I already explained my stance on that particular topic. If you want to keep questioning me on my criticisms of Captain Marvel then at least do me the favor of listening to what I'm saying. You don't have to agree with me but at least don't try to invent my reasons for me, especially not if they boil down to such a petty statement as "Well you only hate her because Feige announced her as the most powerful hero and you didn't like that." No, no I don't hate her just for that. I've written paragraphs worth of explanation these last few pages to describe what my issue was and it wasn't that. Note that I'm not forcing you to agree or disagree with me. But you responded to me and attacked my stance and all I'm doing here is defending my stance. You don't see me attacking your arguments with such vehemence. Jesus Christ, stop inventing physics to explain away Thor's feats while saying a starship with a volatile energy source shouldn't explode when someone flies through it. The guy destroyed acres of land, the whole place was crumbling around them. Yes, Odin punished him for abusing his power on the giants. If only Carol had a supervisor to punish her for being so mean to the Kree. And I'm going to keep bringing up Feige because I knw it's true despite the fact that you won't admit it. You continue to do mental gymnastics to argue your point when it's been proven to be completely false. She didn't so anything Thor didn't do. Denying it won't change anything. "She had no idea the core would blow up like that." "It's not the ground, it's all ice. It's not that impressive." "Ultimately, she didn't have to sacrifice anything in her first movie, I'm just going to pretend Thor didn't either." It's all code for, "I'm mad because Kevin Feige said Captain Marvel is more powerful than Thor." I'm done with this topic. I can only hope CM gets put into a coma in her next movie so you can regain your sanity.
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