shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Nov 29, 2021 17:12:41 GMT
news.yahoo.com/george-r-r-martin-flew-113700168.html
Interesting article. According to a new book by Andrew Miller (with participation from GRRM and GRRM's agent), D&D didn't stick to the template GRRM had given them. This is a direct contradiction to prior claims by others (behind the show, in front of the camera, at HBO) that the show and books were pretty much following the same story.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Nov 29, 2021 19:31:30 GMT
Yeah that would have been better.
Game of Thrones needed 10 seasons. and a 100 episodes.
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Post by Marv on Dec 1, 2021 5:04:55 GMT
Everyone knows the end was rushed for absolutely no reason other than nobody wanted to tell D and D they could hit the bricks and someone else could finish the show. It’s such a shame because several years of solid effort got hamstrung by a lackluster finish and it was all due to effort.
I just read that HBO is hoping to make a Dunk and Egg prequel series. This is the only spinoff I would personally have any interest in and I hope it comes to fruition.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2021 7:31:48 GMT
Honestly, the show’s ending was doomed from day one. People act like it didn’t fall apart until the end, but the mistakes were set up from the beginning, even though the quality was higher early on. That show was never going to deliver a satisfying conclusion. It was impossible. That’s probably why GRRRM cannot seem to finish the books. He’s dug himself the same grave that the series did.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Dec 1, 2021 11:21:16 GMT
Honestly, the show’s ending was doomed from day one. People act like it didn’t fall apart until the end, but the mistakes were set up from the beginning, even though the quality was higher early on. That show was never going to deliver a satisfying conclusion. It was impossible. That’s probably why GRRRM cannot seem to finish the books. He’s dug himself the same grave that the series did. Yeah that is true. That could be the reason why George RR Martin don`t seem to be able to finish the books.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2021 18:28:02 GMT
Honestly, the show’s ending was doomed from day one. People act like it didn’t fall apart until the end, but the mistakes were set up from the beginning, even though the quality was higher early on. That show was never going to deliver a satisfying conclusion. It was impossible. That’s probably why GRRRM cannot seem to finish the books. He’s dug himself the same grave that the series did. Yeah that is true. That could be the reason why George RR Martin don`t seem to be able to finish the books. Absolutely. And as mediocre as the ending was I think people are too hard on it for that reason. The story was set around the question of “Who will get the throne?”. So a predictable answer like Jon or Deny would’ve disappointed. Yet, a surprising answer, like Bran, just left people angry and confused. The big threat was a bunch of zombie monsters that barely factored into the plot and were only teased in glimpses. Yet fans were surprised when the pay off was quick and hollow. They played up big shocking deaths and twists over character arcs so there was never going to be satisfactory endings for the main characters. It’s what people loved about the show, but putting shock value and plot twists over character arcs rarely ends well unless that plot remains brilliant all the way through. The characterization was excellent, but the character arcs were horrendous. The writers constantly played to a fan base with a “Team (Insert Character)” mentality so this led to massive outrage when inevitably one character triumphed over another. And characters like Deny, who was always meant to turn evil, had all the set up to that change downplayed for years, presumably to not anger the fans who loved her, which of course led to a rushed change of heart that pissed off fans even more. Good conclusions require precise planning and set up. This “mystery box” type of writing always fails.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Dec 1, 2021 18:30:36 GMT
Yeah that is true. That could be the reason why George RR Martin don`t seem to be able to finish the books. Part of the problem is that GRRM set-up too many characters and side plots. I don't know how he would keep track of all of them at this point... it's so much for one writer to juggle! Now he finds himself in a place where he's got to start wrapping up all those in a satisfying manner, and it's probably pretty daunting for him.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Dec 1, 2021 21:25:19 GMT
Yeah that is true. That could be the reason why George RR Martin don`t seem to be able to finish the books. Absolutely. And as mediocre as the ending was I think people are too hard on it for that reason. The story was set around the question of “Who will get the throne?”. So a predictable answer like Jon or Deny would’ve disappointed. Yet, a surprising answer, like Bran, just left people angry and confused. The big threat was a bunch of zombie monsters that barely factored into the plot and were only teased in glimpses. Yet fans were surprised when the pay off was quick and hollow. They played up big shocking deaths and twists over character arcs so there was never going to be satisfactory endings for the main characters. It’s what people loved about the show, but putting shock value and plot twists over character arcs rarely ends well unless that plot remains brilliant all the way through. The characterization was excellent, but the character arcs were horrendous. The writers constantly played to a fan base with a “Team (Insert Character)” mentality so this led to massive outrage when inevitably one character triumphed over another. And characters like Deny, who was always meant to turn evil, had all the set up to that change downplayed for years, presumably to not anger the fans who loved her, which of course led to a rushed change of heart that pissed off fans even more. Good conclusions require precise planning and set up. This “mystery box” type of writing always fails. I agree with everything you write here.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Dec 1, 2021 21:27:32 GMT
Yeah that is true. That could be the reason why George RR Martin don`t seem to be able to finish the books. Part of the problem is that GRRM set-up too many characters and side plots. I don't know how he would keep track of all of them at this point... it's so much for one writer to juggle! Now he finds himself in a place where he's got to start wrapping up all those in a satisfying manner, and it's probably pretty daunting for him. Yeah that is part of the problem. Frankly i think its time to just accept that we are never going to get the last two books.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Dec 2, 2021 17:53:51 GMT
Yeah that is part of the problem. Frankly i think its time to just accept that we are never going to get the last two books. Fair assessment.  It wouldn't be the same for me even if he did eventually release them. Roy Dotrice, who narrated all the published books (also was in GOT), died in 2017. I can't imagine anyone else doing it. I even found Dotrice's incorrect way of pronouncing some of the names a little endearing. 
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Post by bluerisk on Dec 11, 2021 21:49:00 GMT
Yeah that would have been better. Game of Thrones needed 10 seasons. and a 100 episodes. I couldn't agree more.
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Post by bluerisk on Dec 11, 2021 21:50:50 GMT
Part of the problem is that GRRM set-up too many characters and side plots. I don't know how he would keep track of all of them at this point... it's so much for one writer to juggle! Now he finds himself in a place where he's got to start wrapping up all those in a satisfying manner, and it's probably pretty daunting for him. Yeah that is part of the problem. Frankly i think its time to just accept that we are never going to get the last two books. With luck "The Winds of Winters", and if as fragment after his dead, but "A Hope of Spring"...no.
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Post by bluerisk on Dec 11, 2021 21:53:49 GMT
Yeah that is true. That could be the reason why George RR Martin don`t seem to be able to finish the books. Part of the problem is that GRRM set-up too many characters and side plots. I don't know how he would keep track of all of them at this point... it's so much for one writer to juggle! Now he finds himself in a place where he's got to start wrapping up all those in a satisfying manner, and it's probably pretty daunting for him. I don't think so. HBO was willing to give them the resources to pan it out. I think they should have stepped in when it was clear that D&D were longer longer up to the task. A CEO or coach will also face consequences when they fail in their job.
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Post by bluerisk on Dec 11, 2021 21:54:25 GMT
Yeah that is true. That could be the reason why George RR Martin don`t seem to be able to finish the books. Absolutely. And as mediocre as the ending was I think people are too hard on it for that reason. The story was set around the question of “Who will get the throne?”. So a predictable answer like Jon or Deny would’ve disappointed. Yet, a surprising answer, like Bran, just left people angry and confused. The big threat was a bunch of zombie monsters that barely factored into the plot and were only teased in glimpses. Yet fans were surprised when the pay off was quick and hollow. They played up big shocking deaths and twists over character arcs so there was never going to be satisfactory endings for the main characters. It’s what people loved about the show, but putting shock value and plot twists over character arcs rarely ends well unless that plot remains brilliant all the way through. The characterization was excellent, but the character arcs were horrendous. The writers constantly played to a fan base with a “Team (Insert Character)” mentality so this led to massive outrage when inevitably one character triumphed over another. And characters like Deny, who was always meant to turn evil, had all the set up to that change downplayed for years, presumably to not anger the fans who loved her, which of course led to a rushed change of heart that pissed off fans even more. Good conclusions require precise planning and set up. This “mystery box” type of writing always fails. Sansa.
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Post by Marv on Dec 12, 2021 22:06:58 GMT
Part of the problem is that GRRM set-up too many characters and side plots. I don't know how he would keep track of all of them at this point... it's so much for one writer to juggle! Now he finds himself in a place where he's got to start wrapping up all those in a satisfying manner, and it's probably pretty daunting for him. I don't think so. HBO was willing to give them the resources to pan it out. I think they should have stepped in when it was clear that D&D were longer longer up to the task. A CEO or coach will also face consequences when they fail in their job. Agreed. And i don't even think they'd have needed 10 seasons to do the storylines justice. They just needed to not shorthand the final 2 seasons and also give the storylines the touch they deserved. The final season had 2 big storylines...the Night King problem and the Cersei problem...but it created its own third storyline in the Dany problem. Six episodes was simply not enough time to properly resolve all these.
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Post by Winter_King on Dec 14, 2021 10:16:30 GMT
Honestly, the show’s ending was doomed from day one. People act like it didn’t fall apart until the end, but the mistakes were set up from the beginning, even though the quality was higher early on. That show was never going to deliver a satisfying conclusion. It was impossible. That’s probably why GRRRM cannot seem to finish the books. He’s dug himself the same grave that the series did. I have no actual issues with the direction that the story went (maybe Bran being the king at the end) but more how the story developed. Dany going Mad Queen at the end was interesting but that should've been well developed instead of happening over three episodes. So for me, it's how rushed the final season or the last two seasons were. Had they kept the same ending but with 10 season long tv show, I would probably be more satisfied.
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Post by Marv on Dec 14, 2021 11:17:10 GMT
Honestly, the show’s ending was doomed from day one. People act like it didn’t fall apart until the end, but the mistakes were set up from the beginning, even though the quality was higher early on. That show was never going to deliver a satisfying conclusion. It was impossible. That’s probably why GRRRM cannot seem to finish the books. He’s dug himself the same grave that the series did. I have no actual issues with the direction that the story went (maybe Bran being the king at the end) but more how the story developed. Dany going Mad Queen at the end was interesting but that should've been well developed instead of happening over three episodes. So for me, it's how rushed the final season or the last two seasons were. Had they kept the same ending but with 10 season long tv show, I would probably be more satisfied. Agreed. Except i'd also argue Arya taking out the Night King with ease is a pretty unsatisfying and unbelievable decision. I could even buy Bran as king if he had more development in the end. But all he had was vague creepy moments of premonition and then characters randomly telling us how good of a king he'd be. The books have their own issues and yes, i'd agree that Martin has kind of dug himself into some holes there as well. I don't know what his plans are with several characters but many of them are currently in a place where im either disinterested or confused as to what the point of it is. Dany and Tyrion being the most obvious ones there.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Dec 14, 2021 13:08:04 GMT
They played up big shocking deaths and twists over character arcs so there was never going to be satisfactory endings for the main characters. It’s what people loved about the show, but putting shock value and plot twists over character arcs rarely ends well unless that plot remains brilliant all the way through. The characterization was excellent, but the character arcs were horrendous. The writers constantly played to a fan base with a “Team (Insert Character)” mentality so this led to massive outrage when inevitably one character triumphed over another. And characters like Deny, who was always meant to turn evil, had all the set up to that change downplayed for years, presumably to not anger the fans who loved her, which of course led to a rushed change of heart that pissed off fans even more. It reacted to them, which gave the show massive publicity, and it always came back after rage quitting because what was left was still too compelling to abandon. Killing off favourites was never an advantage, only a price the story could afford and it took a serious misunderstanding to believe that doing it at the end would pay off. Daenerys was progressively but continuously announced as the last villain to anyone with some intelligence. Still, having her turn sour in the course of one episode was too quick even for those who were waiting for it and the resolution through Jon Snow was even more abrupt. Then the choosing of Bran came as a cheap surprise no one needed or could even justify. An ending, even a surprising one, is satisfying when it has been prepared. If it comes out of the blue for the sake of "subverting expectations", it's just a joke.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Dec 17, 2021 19:17:43 GMT
Honestly, the show’s ending was doomed from day one. People act like it didn’t fall apart until the end, but the mistakes were set up from the beginning, even though the quality was higher early on. That show was never going to deliver a satisfying conclusion. It was impossible. That’s probably why GRRRM cannot seem to finish the books. He’s dug himself the same grave that the series did. I have no actual issues with the direction that the story went (maybe Bran being the king at the end) but more how the story developed. Dany going Mad Queen at the end was interesting but that should've been well developed instead of happening over three episodes.So for me, it's how rushed the final season or the last two seasons were. Had they kept the same ending but with 10 season long tv show, I would probably be more satisfied. They pushed it into overdrive toward the end, but it was always there. Look at what she did when she freed the Unsullied, and the look on her face as the chaos unfolded. The audience was supposed to embrace this 'breaker of chains' persona, and see that as this harsh anti-hero moment, but in reality she simply loved executing those people who belittled her. She certainly didn't take pity on the witch who killed Drogo, even though that woman had every right to seek revenge. Look at what she did to the Tarlys. Dany convinced herself that she was always in the right, she tried to do the right thing, but in the end her true nature got the best of her. She's a vengeful creature at heart, always has been. And honestly, when you watch the series again, as hastily as everything is thrown together down the stretch, her final turn was truly earned. She went through all of this shit, lost her husband, her 'children,' basically her identity for the singular purpose of reclaiming the throne in her family's name. And there, at the end, staring down the city, she knew the people would never love or respect her the way they did Jon, or any other leader from the realm itself. It's a great scene. Amelia (who isn't the greatest actress, to be polite) sells the moment. You can see all of it going through her head at once. Struggling with the realization I just mentioned, struggling with the legacy of her family, eventually caving in and losing control; indulging her darkest tendencies to the extreme. It's one of the few scenes the final season got right. It was the rest of the cast who suffered from nonsensical character arcs at that point. Dany's turn and the Clegane Bowl were spot on, pretty much every other character's arc left you shaking your head.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Dec 18, 2021 7:52:36 GMT
Dany going Mad Queen at the end was interesting but that should've been well developed instead of happening over three episodes. They pushed it into overdrive toward the end, but it was always there. Look at what she did when she freed the Unsullied, and the look on her face as the chaos unfolded. The audience was supposed to embrace this 'breaker of chains' persona, and see that as this harsh anti-hero moment, but in reality she simply loved executing those people who belittled her. She certainly didn't take pity on the witch who killed Drogo, even though that woman had every right to seek revenge. Look at what she did to the Tarlys. It was always there and anyone with a brain was only waiting for it. It was plainly announced right when Viserys died: she was the dragon, the destructive monster in all mythologies. She was a cute baby dragon then but it would grow and this was not a Disney story in which the thing is turned into something nice. The healer didn't kill Drogo. She is made to look like she could have done by the way the story is written but this is only one of the many misleading tricks the writers pull on the audience. Granted, the books make it more visible: Drogo comes back from fighting with a wound and it is said elsewhere that the people they slaughtered are using poison, then he discards the healer's bandage saying it was itching. In the show, we have to realise that Daenerys is not even punishing her. There is no accusation, no trial, not even a sentence. She says "it is not your screams I want, only your life". She is merely using her, not even caring to find out the truth. Maybe she needs a life to sacrifice to get the dragons, maybe she is just making a display of power, maybe she is just letting steam off. This is a behaviour we'll see again. After taking Meereen, an arbitrary number of people are crucified based on their social origin, not on verified responsibility. We learn later that at least one of them had opposed the crime that led to his execution. There will be further examples of such tendencies in every subsequent season. She is constantly dragon-headed. In S8, Daenerys is given two moments to announce what she already wants to do: S8E04: "Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps it's good the people see that Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed, and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down upon them" S8E05: "In Meereen, the slaves turned on the masters and liberated the city themselves the moment I arrived … Mercy is our strength. Our mercy towards future generations…"" Many will have missed it but it expresses her distaste, her resentment for the people who fail to welcome her as a saviour. The people of King's Landing are not worthy. She has already discarded them and speaks of "future generations". Cersei is just a pretext. Still, this was too late in the game. The average audience was not given time to change their mind and wish her to fall. D&D placed one last bet on the Big Shocking Twist ® without realising it would blow up in their face. They kept the hints subtle enough so a large part of the audience would keep rooting for the monster, but you can't fool dumb people all the way and expect their applause when they find out at the end. For all the justified criticism of the last seasons (S5 was flawed, S6 was terrible and the rest kept getting worse), the real backlash came from the stupid who blindly rode the Daenerys train until it crashed. Their main argument was that they had not seen it coming.
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