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Post by politicidal on Jan 18, 2022 15:44:39 GMT
That'd be a little surprising.
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Post by Winter_King on Jan 19, 2022 9:48:35 GMT
Yes. Bring back the Bacchanalia.
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Post by yougotastewgoinbaby on Jan 21, 2022 21:26:48 GMT
In shah Allah.
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Post by Aj_June on Jan 23, 2022 8:36:06 GMT
The only thing west is becoming is more and more idiot. China's trade and infrastructure is replacing west slowly and steadily but surely. West's cluelessness and stupidity in dealing with coronavirus pandemic further exposed how far removed from reality they are. Having a horrible right wing and a deranged left wing and fighting among themselves shows that west is spiritually, philosophically and logically challenged society and by next 100 years would lose all their dominance.
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Post by lunda2222 on Jan 31, 2022 12:24:00 GMT
That'd be a little surprising. Despite the literary framework provided by the Hebrew Bible and the following NT writings, there’s next to nothing Jewish or Christian as Jesus so taught about Christian morality. Jesus was a Jew who preached Judaism.
It was Paul who made it into a new religion.
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Post by lunda2222 on Jan 31, 2022 14:25:47 GMT
Jesus was a Jew who preached Judaism.
It was Paul who made it into a new religion.
He preached beyond the Judaism…which had several conflicting dominations at the time. A big argument amongst the learned rabbis (the Pharisees) was when could a righteous man divorce his wife. Some said if she was a bad cook, that was reason enough. However, Jesus said a righteous man never divorces his wife unless she sleeps with another man. To do so is a sin against lovingkindness. This did not sit well with the rabbis who, as seen in several Gospel passages, hurl gotcha questions about the subject into Jesus’ face. Not beyond, just another denomination, as you correctly say.
The Pharisees was one such denomination. They weren't rabbis in the sense the word is used today, a holy teacher. That didn't start for some time after Jesus death. But they became the foundational for Rabbinic Judaism.
We are getting into murky territory here. There is no historical evidence that Jesus even existed (but let's for the sake of argument say he did), far less which denomination he preached, but if you take the new testament, condense it, he most likely was a crossover between a Pharisee, and a Zealot with some Essene influence thrown in as well.
The only denomination Jesus was really critical against was the Sadducees.
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Post by lunda2222 on Feb 1, 2022 4:39:18 GMT
Not beyond, just another denomination, as you correctly say.
The Pharisees was one such denomination. They weren't rabbis in the sense the word is used today, a holy teacher. That didn't start for some time after Jesus death. But they became the foundational for Rabbinic Judaism.
We are getting into murky territory here. There is no historical evidence that Jesus even existed (but let's for the sake of argument say he did), far less which denomination he preached, but if you take the new testament, condense it, he most likely was a crossover between a Pharisee, and a Zealot with some Essene influence thrown in as well.
The only denomination Jesus was really critical against was the Sadducees.
Jesus call the Pharisees “empty tombs,” so… The history is not that murky. Both Rabbi Hillel and Rabbi Shammai were contemporaries of Jesus. “What you yourself hate, don't do to your neighbor. This is the whole law; the rest is commentary. Go and study.” Neither was called Rabbi in their own time.
From Wikipedia: Rabbi is not an occupation found in the Hebrew Bible, and ancient generations did not employ related titles such as Rabban, Rabbi, or Rav to describe either the Babylonian sages or the sages in Israel. For example, Hillel I and Shammai (the religious leaders of the early first century) had no rabbinic title prefixed to their names.
The term came to being around 70-90 AD.
The reason the are called rabbi by later interpretations was to give a framework of their functions they could understand.
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Post by lunda2222 on Feb 1, 2022 5:18:20 GMT
Neither was called Rabbi in their own time.
From Wikipedia: Rabbi is not an occupation found in the Hebrew Bible, and ancient generations did not employ related titles such as Rabban, Rabbi, or Rav to describe either the Babylonian sages or the sages in Israel. For example, Hillel I and Shammai (the religious leaders of the early first century) had no rabbinic title prefixed to their names.
The term came to being around 70-90 AD.
The reason the are called rabbi by later interpretations was to give a framework of their functions they could understand.
And they didn't start writing anything down about Jesus until about 40 years later around 70-90AD. And none of the NT writers ever said they met Jesus personally except for Paul, who saw him in a vision and spoke with him on a daily basis because Jesus would appear to him in his thoughts...Paul himself says this.
It is very possible that a lot of sayings attributed to Jesus was from another teacher. And no matter what they were called, the teachers of the law, what is now called a Rabbi, were all they had in large Jewish diaspora inside the Roman dominated world to run the synagogues. Jesus was most likely a teacher of the law in his local synagogue before he became a street preacher. Almost a certainty, and almost a certainty that stories are "padded" or simply made up too.
Synagogues didn't exist Jesus time either. Well they did exist, but not in the same form we are talking about them just like rabbis. They had very different functions. And for the same reason: The destruction of the second temple and the Jews eviction from Judea. That event changed a lot of things.
Which is why history at the point becomes murky. And why Jesus was so much against the Sadducees . Jesus, the historical Jesus, was almost certainly a rebel, one who tried to fight the Roman oppressors. And the Sadducees where, to give it a modern analogy, the Vichy Government of it's time.
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Post by lunda2222 on Feb 1, 2022 7:27:30 GMT
Almost a certainty, and almost a certainty that stories are "padded" or simply made up too. Synagogues didn't exist Jesus time either. Well they did exist, but not in the same form we are talking about them just like rabbis. And for the same reason: The destruction of the second temple and the Jews eviction from Judea. That event changed a lot of things.
I don't know where you are getting this from? Jews living in Spain or Italy or Persia would never be able to travel to Jerusalem to worship. Jews had been living outside of Judea for centuries and just like a church or temple becomes the center of a religious community, so did these Jewish buildings with men teaching from the Torah. Call the buildings and the Scripture experts who manned them whatever you want... shul, is another word...but they served the very same purpose. And the Second Temple had a lot of Jews who did not recognize it as a worthy replacement for the First one. That was another big bone of contention happening before, during, and after Jesus' mission. They didn't even agree on where the "true" Temple of the Lord stood. Even in Jesus' day, the Samaritans who had their own holy temple at Mt. Gerizim. The Essenes believed the Herod's Temple was an abomination. The first part is simple: We are talking about Jesus where he worked. He did not work in Spain. According to one of the more dubious verses in The New Testament (it's one of those verses we know is just made up), he was in Egypt for a while as an infant, though. Similarly I think we can exclude the part when Crowley showed him the kingdoms of the world (that's a Good Omens reference) as well.
Your verse has a ring of truth to it though. Oh I don't believe a second he said all that, but it's a fair approximation about how a synagogue would function in Jesus time. Note, however, you would not be allowed to pray to God in it. And by praying I mean offering up some sort of animal or monetary sacrifice to God, which the proceeds would go to... you guessed it the Sadducees.
And that part was upheld by law and (Roman) soldiers.
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Post by lunda2222 on Feb 1, 2022 7:45:57 GMT
The first part is simple: We are talking about Jesus where he worked. He did not work in Spain. According to one of the more dubious verses in The New Testament (it's one of those verses we know is just made up), he was in Egypt for a while as an infant, though. Similarly I think we can exclude the part when Crowley showed him the kingdoms of the world (that's a Good Omens reference) as well. Your verse has a ring of truth to it though. Oh I don't believe a second he said all that, but it's a fair approximation about how a synagogue would function in Jesus time. Note, however, you would not be allowed to pray to God in it. And by praying I mean offering up some sort of animal or monetary sacrifice to God, which the proceeds would go to... you guessed it the Sadducees. And that part was upheld by law and (Roman) soldiers.
Then explain this passage: Matthew 4:14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: They didn't offer up sacrifices in synagogues, it was a place to hear and read the Torah. Jews had so many commandments (613 at the time), the average Jew could not remember them all or understood how to fulfill them. That needed the whatever these men were called to help them. Exactly.
I don't see any conflict between us here.
You were allowed to preach (or "teach" as it was called back then), but you weren't allowed to pray. That's the difference between Synagogues before and after the destruction of the second temple. They served different functions.
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Post by lunda2222 on Feb 1, 2022 8:02:35 GMT
Exactly.
I don't see any conflict between us here.
You were allowed to preach, but you weren't allowed to pray. That's the difference between Synagogues before and after the destruction of the second temple. They served different functions.
What Bible are you reading? As I said, by praying I mean sacrificing (bought) animals or monetary (giving coins to the priests).
You remember the verses about Jesus cleansing of the temple? (Matthew 21:12–17, Mark 11:15–19, and Luke 19:45–48) and near the start in the Gospel of John (at John 2:13–16).
It's the reason why Jesus was an enemy to the Sadducees.
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Post by lunda2222 on Feb 1, 2022 8:30:18 GMT
As I said, by praying I mean sacrificing (bought) animals or monetary (giving coins to the priests). And buying animals to be sacrificed was never done beyond the Temple confines...nor was it an issue for Jesus other than as a racket where they were handling coins with Caesar's (a god) face on them...but that did not prevent 1st century Jews from forming congregations for prayer and study. The synagogue was where, in all likelihood, Jesus learned to read. So, how do you explain the Render unto Caesar thing?
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Post by lunda2222 on Feb 1, 2022 8:58:03 GMT
So, how do you explain the Render unto Caesar thing?
In paying one's taxes, but collecting taxes for a "god" was not allowed in the Temple. This would literally be putting a god before God. They were exchanging Roman coins into Judean ones. Only the Judean money could purchase the needed animals to sacrifice. Tax collecting was done outside by what we would call today a thumb-breaker. Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words. And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone’s opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances. Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.
"They marveled."  Sounds like common sense to me. And yea Jesus said unto them, "Duh." And yet it was the money changers who were there to prevent exactly that who felt his wrath during the temple cleansing.
You don't see the contradiction?
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Sounds like common sense to me. And yea Jesus said unto them, "Duh."