Hnefahogg
Sophomore
@hnefahogg
Posts: 888
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Post by Hnefahogg on Jan 30, 2022 9:56:07 GMT
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Post by rizdek on Jan 31, 2022 1:10:11 GMT
I've been following Dr Rauser for several years. I find him pretty well informed and makes good points.
Can one reasonably believe the Bible is God's word? IMHO...of course.
The problem with Aaron's quick negative rsp is that while he claims to be an atheist and therefore doesn't believe any god exists, he presumes to know what this god that doesn't exist must be like in order to conclude the Bible couldn't be inspired by it.
I don't know what he was trying to prove by pretending not to know what a world view is and whether he has one. His world view is he's an atheist who pretty believes all that exists is the natural world and there's no supernatural world. I agree, but I don't pretend that I don't know that that is my world view.
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Post by Winter_King on Jan 31, 2022 9:28:52 GMT
Why do people believe god must be nice? Gods are always supposed to be nice? 
That's a ludicrous view. Just because you don't want god to be violent, and the universe is violent, that is not proof of his non-existence.
Some people believe a certain God is good because the book that is suppose to be his word says that He is. So it might be proof that this specific God doesn't exist or He's a liar.
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Post by Winter_King on Jan 31, 2022 9:31:21 GMT
I've been following Dr Rauser for several years. I find him pretty well informed and makes good points.
Can one reasonably believe the Bible is God's word? IMHO...of course.
The problem with Aaron's quick negative rsp is that while he claims to be an atheist and therefore doesn't believe any god exists, he presumes to know what this god that doesn't exist must be like in order to conclude the Bible couldn't be inspired by it.
I don't know what he was trying to prove by pretending not to know what a world view is and whether he has one. His world view is he's an atheist who pretty believes all that exists is the natural world and there's no supernatural world. I agree, but I don't pretend that I don't know that that is my world view.
The Bible makes certain claims about this god is supposed to be like and that's contrasted by only God's actions, as described in the Bible.
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Post by rizdek on Jan 31, 2022 11:00:36 GMT
I've been following Dr Rauser for several years. I find him pretty well informed and makes good points.
Can one reasonably believe the Bible is God's word? IMHO...of course.
The problem with Aaron's quick negative rsp is that while he claims to be an atheist and therefore doesn't believe any god exists, he presumes to know what this god that doesn't exist must be like in order to conclude the Bible couldn't be inspired by it.
I don't know what he was trying to prove by pretending not to know what a world view is and whether he has one. His world view is he's an atheist who pretty believes all that exists is the natural world and there's no supernatural world. I agree, but I don't pretend that I don't know that that is my world view.
The Bible makes certain claims about this god is supposed to be like and that's contrasted by only God's actions, as described in the Bible. I don't think there's a god and so don't think the Bible was inspired by it. But IF there was a god, I have no reason to think something like the Bible could not have been inspired by it because I have no knowledge or understanding about what this god is, the kind of being it is. It might be a devious asshole or an experimenter who created the world to see what might happen and the Bible was inspired by it as an experiment to see what would happen. It might spend its existence creating universe after universe observing what happens with one set of properties vs another with little more concern for the primitive critters that evolve in it (like humans) than humans have for slime mold on the bottom of rotten logs.
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Post by rizdek on Jan 31, 2022 13:29:47 GMT
Why do people believe god must be nice? Gods are always supposed to be nice?
That's a ludicrous view. Just because you don't want god to be violent, and the universe is violent, that is not proof of his non-existence.
I think the reasoning goes like this. The vast majority of humans who believe in God think that by definition God should be worshiped so it must follow that this god is 'worship-worthy' or has characteristics making him fit to be worshiipped. So they automatically assume God is not unjustifiably violent or malevolent. They don't think he is totally NONviolent but that he is justified in his use of violence.
OTOH, those who argue using the 'problem of suffering' or 'problem of evil' arguments are trying to show that the God of the Bible is unjustifiably or unnecessarily violent. I would certainly contend that the God of the Bible is unnecessarily violent if we are to see him/it as worship worthy. Most who (at least I don't) argue that way don't think that is PROOF that there isn't a god, but that it would lead a reasonable person to believe that if a god inspired the Bible, it wasn't worship worthy.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Jan 31, 2022 13:55:53 GMT
If there actually is a God, its just as likely that the one true God is Zeus as the God in the bible.
It can also just as well be that every religion and every beliver are wrong about what and who God is.
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Post by amyghost on Jan 31, 2022 23:31:52 GMT
I can believe in the violent, vengeful, jealous god of the OT a lot quicker than I can Jesus' sunshine and rainbows 'he loves everybody' version in the New.
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Post by onethreetwo on Feb 1, 2022 5:34:13 GMT
Why do people believe god must be nice? Gods are always supposed to be nice? That's a ludicrous view. Just because you don't want god to be violent, and the universe is violent, that is not proof of his non-existence.
Or presume to know better, or be in any position to judge. As if the opinions of ants mean anything. |
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Post by Admin on Feb 1, 2022 7:23:25 GMT
Love isn't always flowers and balloons. js
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Post by rizdek on Feb 1, 2022 11:19:20 GMT
I think the reasoning goes like this. The vast majority of humans who believe in God think that by definition God should be worshiped so it must follow that this god is 'worship-worthy' or has characteristics making him fit to be worshiipped. So they automatically assume God is not unjustifiably violent or malevolent. They don't think he is totally NONviolent but that he is justified in his use of violence.
OTOH, those who argue using the 'problem of suffering' or 'problem of evil' arguments are trying to show that the God of the Bible is unjustifiably or unnecessarily violent. I would certainly contend that the God of the Bible is unnecessarily violent if we are to see him/it as worship worthy. Most who (at least I don't) argue that way don't think that is PROOF that there isn't a god, but that it would lead a reasonable person to believe that if a god inspired the Bible, it wasn't worship worthy. Well I think there is a way out of the dilemma for Christians who reject the Trinity. The Bible is talking about two different gods.
There is Yahweh, God the Father, of the Old Testament who is violent. He was the avenger god of the Hebrews.
But his son Christ is the harmonizer, the peaceful god who is in charge of salvation.
Yes,, despite the strong effort to maintain that they are monotheists, the Christians do act like they are polytheists. There's God the Father, God the Son and may speak of God the Holy Spirit. And even Satan is a 'kind of' a god with his supernatural ability to sway people's thinking and with his demons swarms over the earth tempting people.
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Hnefahogg
Sophomore
@hnefahogg
Posts: 888
Likes: 370
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Post by Hnefahogg on Feb 1, 2022 11:54:41 GMT
I can believe in the violent, vengeful, jealous god of the OT a lot quicker than I can Jesus' sunshine and rainbows 'he loves everybody' version in the New. God of the Old and New Testaments is the same God. Believing otherwise is a heresy called Marcionism. Matthew 5 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 2 Timothy 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. |
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Post by amyghost on Feb 1, 2022 14:12:12 GMT
I can believe in the violent, vengeful, jealous god of the OT a lot quicker than I can Jesus' sunshine and rainbows 'he loves everybody' version in the New. God of the Old and New Testaments is the same God. Believing otherwise is a heresy called Marcionism. Matthew 5 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 2 Timothy 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. God of the OT is only the same god for good Sunday School Xtians. For Jews it's quite a different matter. Since I don't believe in either religion in any supernaturalistic sense anyway, I'm perfectly content to remain heretical in my opinions about your god.
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Post by amyghost on Feb 1, 2022 14:17:16 GMT
I can believe in the violent, vengeful, jealous god of the OT a lot quicker than I can Jesus' sunshine and rainbows 'he loves everybody' version in the New. Yep, the OT God and the NT God are very different characters. A fact I've pointed out to Orkrdrkr in the above post, but this is something non-Jewish believers will never get.
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Hnefahogg
Sophomore
@hnefahogg
Posts: 888
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Post by Hnefahogg on Feb 1, 2022 14:52:04 GMT
God of the Old and New Testaments is the same God. Believing otherwise is a heresy called Marcionism. Matthew 5 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 2 Timothy 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. God of the OT is only the same god for good Sunday School Xtians. For Jews it's quite a different matter. Since I don't believe in either religion in any supernaturalistic sense anyway, I'm perfectly content to remain heretical in my opinions about your god. I did not try to proselytize Christianity in my post. I was just trying to say that Marcionism was a heresy that deemed there were two gods, one of the OT and one of the NT. Despite that, I can say that many Christians today kind of have a Marcionite understanding of the Bible. When asked about violence in the OT, they might answer that they follow the NT and not the OT. And I know that Jews do not believe in Jesus and the NT. They think that the Trinity has no bearing in the Torah/Tanakh (OT), and that Christian prophecies about Jesus are misquoted and taken out of context.
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Post by amyghost on Feb 3, 2022 14:21:45 GMT
God of the OT is only the same god for good Sunday School Xtians. For Jews it's quite a different matter. Since I don't believe in either religion in any supernaturalistic sense anyway, I'm perfectly content to remain heretical in my opinions about your god. I did not try to proselytize Christianity in my post. I was just trying to say that Marcionism was a heresy that deemed there were two gods, one of the OT and one of the NT. Despite that, I can say that many Christians today kind of have a Marcionite understanding of the Bible. When asked about violence in the OT, they might answer that they follow the NT and not the OT. And I know that Jews do not believe in Jesus and the NT. They think that the Trinity has no bearing in the Torah/Tanakh (OT), and that Christian prophecies about Jesus are misquoted and taken out of context. Points for a good answer. The Marcionite heresy is certainly alive and well amongst the majority of modern-day Christians insofar as to how they categorize and somehow attempt to reconcile God of the OT and NT into one non-self-conflicting entity; although I suspect most of them would deny this even if they have any familiarity with Marcionism.
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Post by Isapop on Feb 3, 2022 15:42:55 GMT
I did not try to proselytize Christianity in my post. I was just trying to say that Marcionism was a heresy that deemed there were two gods, one of the OT and one of the NT. Despite that, I can say that many Christians today kind of have a Marcionite understanding of the Bible. When asked about violence in the OT, they might answer that they follow the NT and not the OT. And I know that Jews do not believe in Jesus and the NT. They think that the Trinity has no bearing in the Torah/Tanakh (OT), and that Christian prophecies about Jesus are misquoted and taken out of context. Points for a good answer. The Marcionite heresy is certainly alive and well amongst the majority of modern-day Christians insofar as to how they categorize and somehow attempt to reconcile God of the OT and NT into one non-self-conflicting entity; although I suspect most of them would deny this even if they have any familiarity with Marcionism. Doesn't the general Christian understanding of "Judgment Day" give enough OT flavor to the NT god to make them into one non-self-conflicting entity? This day of judgment, also known as the Final Judgment, is when Jesus, the Son of God, will judge "the living and the dead" before destroying the old heaven and earth, which are corrupted of sin...All skeptics will be judged by Christ at the “great white throne,” and they will face punishment in accordance with the acts they have done. The Bible is very definite that skeptics are collecting up vengeance against themselves and that God will “give to each person according to what he has done” (Romans 2:5-6). www.christianity.com/wiki/end-times/what-is-the-final-judgment-of-god-what-happens-on-judgment-day.html
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Post by amyghost on Feb 9, 2022 20:00:49 GMT
Points for a good answer. The Marcionite heresy is certainly alive and well amongst the majority of modern-day Christians insofar as to how they categorize and somehow attempt to reconcile God of the OT and NT into one non-self-conflicting entity; although I suspect most of them would deny this even if they have any familiarity with Marcionism. Doesn't the general Christian understanding of "Judgment Day" give enough OT flavor to the NT god to make them into one non-self-conflicting entity? This day of judgment, also known as the Final Judgment, is when Jesus, the Son of God, will judge "the living and the dead" before destroying the old heaven and earth, which are corrupted of sin...All skeptics will be judged by Christ at the “great white throne,” and they will face punishment in accordance with the acts they have done. The Bible is very definite that skeptics are collecting up vengeance against themselves and that God will “give to each person according to what he has done” (Romans 2:5-6). www.christianity.com/wiki/end-times/what-is-the-final-judgment-of-god-what-happens-on-judgment-day.html It's certainly enough to turn good latter-day Wesleyanite sorts of Christian believers into veritable pretzels of rhetorical snarl trying to disentangle the obvious dichotomy of 'God loves everyone' and petulant, gavel-banging judge slavering to send you to hellfire for eternity. Jesus himself was never able to fully get around it  .
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