lune7000
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@lune7000
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Post by lune7000 on Apr 4, 2022 21:32:00 GMT
While going through films of the 40's and 50's I ran into a lot of noir films (whatever that word means). I was quite involved with them at the time but it was always an uneasy compulsion- something was amiss. It took a while but I figured out what it was: tragedy porn. This is a term I derived from observing what people are addicted to. People watch porn b/c it's porn, not b/c it is well made- it doesn't have to be well made- it's porn and it works on an animal level w/o needing art.
The same thing applies to tragedy. We are wired to gawk at a massive car accident- we have almost no choice, the primitive fear based element of the brain takes over. So when you see a movie about some guy and girl wantonly entering into a destructive relationship the story really doesn't have to be all that good to hold your attention- it's tragedy porn and that's enough. We are addicted to watch people self-destruct. And self destruction is much of what film noir is. It doesn't matter if the acting is lame, the sets cheap, the story worn to death- there is an oddly compelling primal quality that stands untouched and we watch anyway.
So, on reflection of the 40 or so noir movies I watched, I asked myself: did this movie speak to anything greater than simple self destruction, and I found the answer, generally, was "no". I had been swept in by tragedy porn and found nothing greater than this (the only exception I found to this was Double Indemnity which seemed to me to be more about alienation than tragedy).
I would be interested in what lovers of noir think of all this. Maybe I am missing something that others get. Everybody's consciousness is limited in some way- including mine.
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Post by Penn Guinn on Apr 4, 2022 21:55:08 GMT
Maybe I am missing something that others get. Seems so.
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Post by Isapop on Apr 4, 2022 22:02:39 GMT
Then why limit your souring to only film noir? Wouldn't your analysis encompass all tragedy, beginning with the ancient Greeks right through to today?
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Post by Doghouse6 on Apr 4, 2022 23:41:38 GMT
Isapop 's question is a valid one. While I don't think of tragedy as a quality central to films noir, it certainly enters into many of them. I tend to think of it as more in the nature of human disorder and calamity, which leads to the larger question(s) surrounding the popularity of many enduring film genres dealing in them: crime; war; horror; disasters, man-made or natural; latter-day action films, with their emphasis on mayhem of all sorts. In summary: undesirable and unpleasant human experiences. Two of the most popular films of the 20th century placed stories of doomed romance against backgrounds of the calamities of destruction and death on massive scales: Gone With the Wind (civil war) and Titanic (maritime disaster). The entrance of disorder and calamity, or tragedy, if you prefer, into dramatic forms may be as elemental as audiences wanting to harmlessly experience something beyond their everyday existences, and to which they can relate - if only conceptually - on a human level: "What would I do in that situation?" Or even a more mundane attraction: "And I was worried about being late with the car payment. Thank goodness that's not me up there on the screen." There's also an aspect of human nature that could be called perverse, harboring curiosity about things from the sordid to the calamitous. Curiosity wants to be satisfied, and films noir or any of the other types listed allow it to be satisfied safely. From my personal viewpoint where films noir are concerned, I find its stylistic signatures even more compelling than its thematic ones, although the latter do tend to make for more complex and interesting narratives. As Elsa Lanchester (as Mary Shelley) said in Bride of Frankenstein, "Such an audience needs something stronger than a pretty little love story."
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lune7000
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@lune7000
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Post by lune7000 on Apr 5, 2022 0:14:05 GMT
Isapop 's question is a valid one. While I don't think of tragedy as a quality central to films noir, it certainly enters into many of them. I tend to think of it as more in the nature of human disorder and calamity, which leads to the larger question(s) surrounding the popularity of many enduring film genres dealing in them: crime; war; horror; disasters, man-made or natural; latter-day action films, with their emphasis on mayhem of all sorts. In summary: undesirable and unpleasant human experiences. Two of the most popular films of the 20th century placed stories of doomed romance against backgrounds of the calamities of destruction and death on massive scales: Gone With the Wind (civil war) and Titanic (maritime disaster). The entrance of disorder and calamity, or tragedy, if you prefer, into dramatic forms may be as elemental as audiences wanting to harmlessly experience something beyond their everyday existences, and to which they can relate - if only conceptually - on a human level: "What would I do in that situation?" Or even a more mundane attraction: "And I was worried about being late with the car payment. Thank goodness that's not me up there on the screen." There's also an aspect of human nature that could be called perverse, harboring curiosity about things from the sordid to the calamitous. Curiosity wants to be satisfied, and films noir or any of the other types listed allow it to be satisfied safely. From my personal viewpoint where films noir are concerned, I find its stylistic signatures even more compelling than its thematic ones, although the latter do tend to make for more complex and interesting narratives. As Elsa Lanchester (as Mary Shelley) said in Bride of Frankenstein, "Such an audience needs something stronger than a pretty little love story." But the two films you noted, Gone with the Wind and Titanic work for me b/c they are much more than just personal tragedy. These films encompass the larger forces that swamp the main characters. They touch on societal conflicts and the faith in technology. These films have a vast field of characters clashing in different ways over a complex battlefield. Film noir rarely seems to go beyond just the foibles of the lead characters to say something bigger or more complex, something more than "these people were bad for each other".
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Post by Penn Guinn on Apr 5, 2022 2:40:11 GMT
But the two films you noted, Gone with the Wind and Titanic work for me b/c they are much more than just personal tragedy. These films encompass the larger forces that swamp the main characters. They touch on societal conflicts and the faith in technology. These films have a vast field of characters clashing in different ways over a complex battlefield. Film noir rarely seems to go beyond just the foibles of the lead characters to say something bigger or more complex, something more than "these people were bad for each other". GWTW and T are EPIC movies with extended running times designed to handle several story arcs at once with those "larger forces" as background. Noirs simply don't have, or need, "vast fields of characters clashing in different ways over a complex battlefield". Complaining that noirs lack this is like be-moaning the absence of musical numbers in Ghandi or The Silence of the Lambs or the absence of jokes in Schindler's List. Epics and noirs simply are like oranges and apples.
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Post by london777 on Apr 5, 2022 3:02:39 GMT
Dr Johnson said "When a man has soured of Film Noir, he has soured of life."
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Post by london777 on Apr 5, 2022 3:12:25 GMT
My local Film Appreciation Society would like a word with you, lune7000.
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Post by Doghouse6 on Apr 5, 2022 7:50:37 GMT
Isapop 's question is a valid one. While I don't think of tragedy as a quality central to films noir, it certainly enters into many of them. I tend to think of it as more in the nature of human disorder and calamity, which leads to the larger question(s) surrounding the popularity of many enduring film genres dealing in them: crime; war; horror; disasters, man-made or natural; latter-day action films, with their emphasis on mayhem of all sorts. In summary: undesirable and unpleasant human experiences. Two of the most popular films of the 20th century placed stories of doomed romance against backgrounds of the calamities of destruction and death on massive scales: Gone With the Wind (civil war) and Titanic (maritime disaster). The entrance of disorder and calamity, or tragedy, if you prefer, into dramatic forms may be as elemental as audiences wanting to harmlessly experience something beyond their everyday existences, and to which they can relate - if only conceptually - on a human level: "What would I do in that situation?" Or even a more mundane attraction: "And I was worried about being late with the car payment. Thank goodness that's not me up there on the screen." There's also an aspect of human nature that could be called perverse, harboring curiosity about things from the sordid to the calamitous. Curiosity wants to be satisfied, and films noir or any of the other types listed allow it to be satisfied safely. From my personal viewpoint where films noir are concerned, I find its stylistic signatures even more compelling than its thematic ones, although the latter do tend to make for more complex and interesting narratives. As Elsa Lanchester (as Mary Shelley) said in Bride of Frankenstein, "Such an audience needs something stronger than a pretty little love story." But the two films you noted, Gone with the Wind and Titanic work for me b/c they are much more than just personal tragedy. These films encompass the larger forces that swamp the main characters. They touch on societal conflicts and the faith in technology. These films have a vast field of characters clashing in different ways over a complex battlefield. Film noir rarely seems to go beyond just the foibles of the lead characters to say something bigger or more complex, something more than "these people were bad for each other". It remains true, however, that audiences have always been drawn in large numbers to stories about terrible things happening to people that those viewers wouldn't want happening to themselves. It holds even for comedy, which more often than not bases humor on the misfortunes of others. In spite of "larger forces," be they wars or shipwrecks, and the "vast field of characters clashing in different ways" along with the "epic" mountings cited by Penn Guinn , Gone With the Wind and Titanic both relate their tales in straightforward fashion, with clear-cut characters and motivations of which viewers are sure at each point in the story. Only in passing, it's perhaps coincidence that these two of the three top-grossing films of all time revolve around headstrong young women from privileged backgrounds discovering survival skills and inner strength amid calamity. Or perhaps not. Film noir rejects the vast field of characters, epic mounting and clearcut narratives and motivations, and portrays the "larger forces that swamp the main characters" as corruption, greed, duplicity, uncertainty and betrayal, and finds moral ambiguity, cynicism, disillusionment, futility and fatalism - rather than triumph over adversity - as its vehicle: the "oddly compelling primal quality" to which you've referred. In place of the multiple causes, components and effects of epic events like wars or shipwrecks, film noir candidly looks inward at the nature of humanity and renders the "complex battlefield" over which characters clash in different ways as the unvarnished human condition itself, warts and all. It's no surprise that film noir reached its zenith during the ten years following WWII. The character of Samuels (Sam Levene) in Crossfire puts it as well as anyone might: "Maybe it's because, for four years now, we've been focusing our minds on...one little peanut: the win-the-war peanut. That was all: get it over; eat that peanut. All at once, no peanut. Now we start looking at each other again. We don't know what we're supposed to do, we don't know what's supposed to happen. We're too used to fighting...but we just don't know what to fight. You can feel the tension in the air: a whole lot of fight and hate that doesn't know where to go."For tens of millions overseas and on the home front, every aspect of life as they knew it was suddenly and brutally disrupted for the duration, as they used to say. Beyond daily survival, what did every one of them think and dream about? Returning to life as they knew it. And when those who survived did return, they found life was no longer as they knew it. They'd seen too much, done too much, and everyone - including those on the home front - had learned too much. About the world; about the people in it and of what they were capable. The three top-grossing films of 1948 were Easter Parade (color, music, song & dance and the romance of an earlier, simpler time), The Red Shoes (more color and more dance, but with the dark edge of conflicting obsessions) and The Snake Pit (the bleakness of mental breakdown and its treatment). Escapism was fine, but many were ready for some honest examination of just what the hell was wrong with people. Film noir offered that honesty, packaged as grown-up cautionary tales without any preachy moralizing, and many viewers find examinations of that sort stimulating on a deeper level. As you say, there's a primal aspect to it, and that's hard for most to resist. Whether it's vast epics, serial killers, gunplay and explosions or the basest human failings, it seems to me the same primal compulsions drive attractions to calamity on grand or intimate scales. But we all have our individual areas of disengagement. Westerns, prison movies, latter-day mobster films and swords-and-sandals or mythical kingdoms/worlds/creatures have never much appealed to me. And perhaps in your case, going sour on noir came about through a concentration of the pessimism it often offers as an effect of your decade-by-decade approach to films undertaken in the last year. That's just a guess.
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lune7000
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@lune7000
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Post by lune7000 on Apr 5, 2022 14:19:04 GMT
Thanks for the detailed, thoughtful reply Doghouse6 (is there a Doghouse5, and what happened to him?)
You are right that tragedy is at the heart of a great many films and I suppose the laser focus on just two people destroying each other is just as valid a topic as any other. I guess I was feeling somewhat like these movies were channeling the darker side of us, the side that just gawks at destruction. I should mention that this has caused me to recoil a little from Shakespeare too in that human foolishness is depressingly repetitive (why doesn't Othello just talk to his wife?). I would say that people are all wise in different ways but foolish in the same way.
I always try to learn something or grow in some way after watching a film. Engaging in this back and forth with you has caused me to realize that I am also reacting to film that is depressing. Film Noir is the most relentlessly depressing of all the genres and it doesn't seem like there is anything to learn from the films other than "don't become obsessed with someone or money". But I guess that is a lesson that many still don't get.
Thanks, to all, for the relies.
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Post by Doghouse6 on Apr 6, 2022 5:59:57 GMT
Thanks for the detailed, thoughtful reply Doghouse6 You are right that tragedy is at the heart of a great many films and I suppose the laser focus on just two people destroying each other is just as valid a topic as any other. I guess I was feeling somewhat like these movies were channeling the darker side of us, the side that just gawks at destruction. I should mention that this has caused me to recoil a little from Shakespeare too in that human foolishness is depressingly repetitive (why doesn't Othello just talk to his wife?). I would say that people are all wise in different ways but foolish in the same way. I always try to learn something or grow in some way after watching a film. Engaging in this back and forth with you has caused me to realize that I am also reacting to film that is depressing. Film Noir is the most relentlessly depressing of all the genres and it doesn't seem like there is anything to learn from the films other than "don't become obsessed with someone or money". But I guess that is a lesson that many still don't get. Thanks, to all, for the relies. It was good of you to wade through one of my unintended mini-essays, and it case it didn't come through amid the verbiage, it's easy enough to understand how anyone could go cold, even temporarily, on a particular type of film, especially those exploring the darker sides of humanity. It's something revered poster spiderwort has lamented of late. Such a tone is perhaps a reason that terse, snappy and often tartly humorous dialogue, saying so much with so little, became a signature element of the form, within which I've found many that make those explorations with the zip and zing those touches of colorful flair create. And I'd best sign off before launching into another mini-essay. That's something you'd have to ask the original IMDB. When I signed up there in '99, every "Doghouse" up through 5 was taken. And if you do ask, don't be surprised if they clam up like a palooka with a busted jaw.
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Post by DanaShelbyChancey on Apr 6, 2022 13:41:13 GMT
It's funny, being a movie buff for my whole life, I have only begun at the age of 66 to seek out noir to watch for relaxation. In the last few weeks I have watched Scarlet Street Too Late For Tears The Postman Always Rings Twice (old) Nightmare Alley (both) Woman On the Run The Strange Love of Martha Ivers and I will be watching more. I don't know what I like best about it, the sleazy characters in normal life, I guess you'd call that "moral ambiguity".
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Post by mikef6 on Apr 7, 2022 14:59:42 GMT
That's something you'd have to ask the original IMDB. When I signed up there in '99, every "Doghouse" up through 5 was taken. And if you do ask, don't be surprised if they clam up like a palooka with a busted jaw. Same with me. The old boards that gave me the 6. I kept it here just for continuity. In the 17 years or so on the old boards I never ran across another MikeF of any number.
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Post by Penn Guinn on Apr 7, 2022 15:08:48 GMT
I have only begun ... to seek out noir to watch for relaxation. ... I will be watching more. You are in for many a treat ... and of course, as with any genre, many will be MUCH better than others but there always seems to be something worth seeing in them... even if it's just looking at the cars and the hats of the era I like to mix my genres so I don't get "burned out" by watching too many of anything at a time ! Has worked for me so far !
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Post by mstreepsucks on Apr 7, 2022 15:09:19 GMT
I've seen like 7, from this genre.
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