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Post by rizdek on Jul 23, 2022 12:52:46 GMT
Whatever time is, it is the thing that keeps everything from happening all at once. Or, more precisely, if things happen sequentially, even thoughts, the implies a form of time as the gaps between each thought becomes something that can be counted. That implies a sequential series of events and can, for all intents and purposes be called time. So...if God is timeless, by definition, each thought he has happens/happened at once with no gaps between them, and if he is eternal and had a thought which resulted in something being created (a universe), then that creation has to be eternal. That means if God is eternal and timeless, the universe has always existed and exists eternally meaning it had no beginning. Which is it? Is the universe eternal or did the universe have a beginning? Does God experience sequences and experience time, by default? If God's thoughts occur sequentially, what was his first thought? If he is eternal, CAN he have had a first thought?
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Jul 23, 2022 13:02:36 GMT
In a way that is beyond human understanding would be my guess.
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Post by rizdek on Jul 23, 2022 13:11:25 GMT
In a way that is beyond human understanding would be my guess. And I would accept that. That would be my solution to an eternal natural world. It manages to exist eternally and still produce universes in a way that is beyond human understanding.
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Post by Isapop on Jul 23, 2022 14:03:58 GMT
Jesus got Him a business portfolio for Christmas.
A really nice leather one, too.
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Post by Admin on Jul 23, 2022 23:05:16 GMT
In a way that is beyond human understanding would be my guess. That raises the question of why we weren't endowed with the ability to understand it.
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Post by rizdek on Jul 24, 2022 12:56:56 GMT
In a way that is beyond human understanding would be my guess. That raises the question of why we weren't endowed with the ability to understand it. 'Why' is beyond human understanding.
But that doesn't answer the question of whether something that is eternal can do things sequentially.
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Post by Isapop on Jul 24, 2022 16:18:10 GMT
How about if we think of God as an inventor who invents something that he personally has no need for. But he knows just how it works and can employ its use at any suitable time.
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Post by Admin on Jul 24, 2022 22:50:26 GMT
That raises the question of why we weren't endowed with the ability to understand it. 'Why' is beyond human understanding. But that doesn't answer the question of whether something that is eternal can do things sequentially.
Correct, but it's relevant to the post I was responding to. At any rate, if not God, then the universe itself is eternal and it certainly seems to do things sequentially.
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Post by llanwydd on Jul 24, 2022 23:48:50 GMT
Whatever time is, it is the thing that keeps everything from happening all at once. Or, more precisely, if things happen sequentially, even thoughts, the implies a form of time as the gaps between each thought becomes something that can be counted. That implies a sequential series of events and can, for all intents and purposes be called time. So...if God is timeless, by definition, each thought he has happens/happened at once with no gaps between them, and if he is eternal and had a thought which resulted in something being created (a universe), then that creation has to be eternal. That means if God is eternal and timeless, the universe has always existed and exists eternally meaning it had no beginning. Which is it? Is the universe eternal or did the universe have a beginning? Does God experience sequences and experience time, by default? If God's thoughts occur sequentially, what was his first thought? If he is eternal, CAN he have had a first thought? What is thought? It is the act of figuring things out. If God knows all things, he does not need to figure anything out and therefore does not think. expecting a rebuttal from Admin, who usually disagrees with me on philosophical matters.
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Post by Admin on Jul 25, 2022 0:05:51 GMT
Whatever time is, it is the thing that keeps everything from happening all at once. Or, more precisely, if things happen sequentially, even thoughts, the implies a form of time as the gaps between each thought becomes something that can be counted. That implies a sequential series of events and can, for all intents and purposes be called time. So...if God is timeless, by definition, each thought he has happens/happened at once with no gaps between them, and if he is eternal and had a thought which resulted in something being created (a universe), then that creation has to be eternal. That means if God is eternal and timeless, the universe has always existed and exists eternally meaning it had no beginning. Which is it? Is the universe eternal or did the universe have a beginning? Does God experience sequences and experience time, by default? If God's thoughts occur sequentially, what was his first thought? If he is eternal, CAN he have had a first thought? What is thought? It is the act of figuring things out. If God knows all things, he does not need to figure anything out and therefore does not think. expecting a rebuttal from Admin, who usually disagrees with me on philosophical matters. I can't agree or disagree with what I don't understand. Usually what happens when I ask for help understanding what someone said, they scramble their way off the podium and try to put me there instead. So with that said, I don't understand what you just said. And I'm not asking. 
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Post by rizdek on Jul 25, 2022 0:06:23 GMT
Whatever time is, it is the thing that keeps everything from happening all at once. Or, more precisely, if things happen sequentially, even thoughts, the implies a form of time as the gaps between each thought becomes something that can be counted. That implies a sequential series of events and can, for all intents and purposes be called time. So...if God is timeless, by definition, each thought he has happens/happened at once with no gaps between them, and if he is eternal and had a thought which resulted in something being created (a universe), then that creation has to be eternal. That means if God is eternal and timeless, the universe has always existed and exists eternally meaning it had no beginning. Which is it? Is the universe eternal or did the universe have a beginning? Does God experience sequences and experience time, by default? If God's thoughts occur sequentially, what was his first thought? If he is eternal, CAN he have had a first thought? What is thought? It is the act of figuring things out. If God knows all things, he does not need to figure anything out and therefore does not think. expecting a rebuttal from Admin, who usually disagrees with me on philosophical matters. Is thought always and only figuring things out? I don't think my thesis assumed God needed to 'figure things out.' A decision, like to create the universe must come before the act of creation or creation happened when the decision was made. That's fine but that means the universe existed as soon as God thought anything and since non time intervened between when he thought to create and creation happened, the universe has also existed eternally.
Answers in Genesis gets it....but doeesn't 'get it.'
Exactly....because it's a paradox to say God exists timelessly and then assume the Universe had a temporally finite existence.
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Post by Admin on Jul 25, 2022 0:09:24 GMT
What is thought? It is the act of figuring things out. If God knows all things, he does not need to figure anything out and therefore does not think. expecting a rebuttal from Admin, who usually disagrees with me on philosophical matters. Is thought always and only figuring things out? I don't think my thesis assumed God needed to 'figure things out.' A decision, like to create the universe must come before the act of creation or creation happened when the decision was made. That's fine but that means the universe existed as soon as God thought anything and since non time intervened between when he thought to create and creation happened, the universe has also existed eternally. Answers in Genesis gets it....but doeesn't 'get it.'
Exactly....because it's a paradox to say God exists timelessly and then assume the Universe had a temporally finite existence.
Is it also a paradox to say the universe exists timelessly for the same reasons?
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Post by general313 on Jul 25, 2022 0:11:10 GMT
If "timeless God" means something similar to a parallel processing computer, then it's perfectly reasonable to suppose that he can think sequentially, just as a parallel processing computer can also process things sequentially.
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Post by rizdek on Jul 25, 2022 11:43:12 GMT
Is thought always and only figuring things out? I don't think my thesis assumed God needed to 'figure things out.' A decision, like to create the universe must come before the act of creation or creation happened when the decision was made. That's fine but that means the universe existed as soon as God thought anything and since non time intervened between when he thought to create and creation happened, the universe has also existed eternally. Answers in Genesis gets it....but doeesn't 'get it.'
Exactly....because it's a paradox to say God exists timelessly and then assume the Universe had a temporally finite existence.
Is it also a paradox to say the universe exists timelessly for the same reasons? Yes....there is a paradox in the two options. 1. something coming from nothing in intuitively impossible so 2. something has always existed. But if something has 'always' existed means it exists eternally and we run into the infinite regress paradox. But what other options are there?
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Post by rizdek on Jul 25, 2022 11:48:06 GMT
If "timeless God" means something similar to a parallel processing computer, then it's perfectly reasonable to suppose that he can think sequentially, just as a parallel processing computer can also process things sequentially. I agree, parallel processing might solve the problem about everything happening at once. But that was only one part of the 'problem.' That doesn't address the problem of....since that processing happened all at once, for a timeless being, it happened immediately "when" it existed which is eternally. So the universe also existed forever or eternally the same as its timeless eternal creator. But we're convinced the universe as we see it had a beginning. Those two are contradictory.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 25, 2022 16:17:25 GMT
It couldn’t because that defies logic. This is the futility of the classical theistic god model. The philosophical god cannot exist. A timeless, spaceless, immaterial being is something that contradicts itself out of existence. What does it mean to say that something that’s made of nothing, existing for no time and in no space “exists”? In what manner is it existing? Existence is necessarily spatial and temporal. A temporal existence is a linear existence (even if relative). The irony here is that theists propose this god as a solution to the problem of infinite regression, without realizing that their own solution leads to one. They propose a being which had no beginning (existing eternally to the past), but was still somehow still able to have a first thought and a first action of creation. It’s a solution that cannibalizes itself.
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Post by Admin on Jul 25, 2022 18:17:06 GMT
Is it also a paradox to say the universe exists timelessly for the same reasons? Yes....there is a paradox in the two options. 1. something coming from nothing in intuitively impossible so 2. something has always existed. But if something has 'always' existed means it exists eternally and we run into the infinite regress paradox. But what other options are there? And yet here we are. Today.
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Post by mystery on Jul 25, 2022 21:48:29 GMT
I think it's possible that everything is happening all at once. I tend to see time as waves, rather than linear. How we perceive time depends on our vantage point, and beings outside of spacetime might be able to perceive it all at once. But, nothing boggles my mind more than trying to understand the nature and physics of time. For something that seems so simple and basic, it is enormously complex.
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Post by permutojoe on Jul 26, 2022 2:15:27 GMT
It's hard enough to understand how the human brain understands (and possiby creates to large extent) time. To posit that question but with a ruler deity is a completely impossible task. In Taosim I believe, there is no time but just an eternal present, and the present creates the past in our minds. That starts to make a bit of sense if you think about it.
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Post by Sarge on Jul 26, 2022 4:09:53 GMT
Whatever time is, it is the thing that keeps everything from happening all at once. Or, more precisely, if things happen sequentially, even thoughts, the implies a form of time as the gaps between each thought becomes something that can be counted. That implies a sequential series of events and can, for all intents and purposes be called time. So...if God is timeless, by definition, each thought he has happens/happened at once with no gaps between them, and if he is eternal and had a thought which resulted in something being created (a universe), then that creation has to be eternal. That means if God is eternal and timeless, the universe has always existed and exists eternally meaning it had no beginning. Which is it? Is the universe eternal or did the universe have a beginning? Does God experience sequences and experience time, by default? If God's thoughts occur sequentially, what was his first thought? If he is eternal, CAN he have had a first thought? I'm not following the logic because by definition, God is supernatural while the universe is natural, so his existence is outside the universe. And time is a dimension in this universe, we don't know if it exists outside. So perhaps God would be timeless because he exists in a timeless place, literally a place with no time.
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