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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 1, 2022 16:31:11 GMT
HOFer and spitball master Gaylord Perry has passed today. An interesting case, a cheater who is in the Hall of Fame. It'sone argument for letting the Juicers in.
One of the classic Gaylord Perry moments
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Post by tristramshandy on Dec 1, 2022 17:11:33 GMT
He looked like he was in his mid-50s when he was playing - - he played for five more teams after the Padres!  |
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Post by tristramshandy on Dec 1, 2022 17:12:51 GMT
I didn't know he had his number retired by the Giants and that he was in both the Giants and Guardians Hall of Fame.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 1, 2022 17:55:19 GMT
Perry started 30 games and pitched three complete games at age 44. Of course, it wasn't a huge strain on the arm to throw that flutterball. First pitcher to win the Cy in both leagues. He was the oldest to win it when he took the trophy in 1978 with San Diego (Roger Clemens broke that in '04). He pitched for eight teams, but I always see him in a Giants uniform.
Perry does pose an interesting quandary. He was a cheater. An admitted cheater. He reveled in the fact that he threw an illegal pitch. He used to tell about it in interviews. "Now, I never put vaseline on a baseball. But, if I did, here's where I would hide it." He's in Cooperstown as are others who made a career out of doctoring the baseball. Don Sutton and Whitey Ford being two big examples. Is there a difference between Gaylord Perry and Barry Bonds? I'm not a fan of the Juicers because, in the end, they shit on the record book for selfish reasons. So did the "Doctors" but it seems to be less evil. Neither are in the class with Joe Jackson, Eddie Cicotte and Hal Chase. They shit on baseball for money. And the Lords of Baseball knew that the Juicers were doing what they were doing and much as they knew Gaylord was slobbering on the ball.
Seriously, would anyone name their name child "Gaylord" now?
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Post by tristramshandy on Dec 1, 2022 18:22:02 GMT
Seriously, would anyone name their name child "Gaylord" now? No. With that being said, who is the youngest "Dick" that you know? I had a kid in my middle/high school named Dick Stewart. By the time we were in high school, he was trying to change it up to Rich Stewart. None of us were having it. I'm sure his college friends only knew him as "Rich". I'm 52 and I don't anyone younger than me named "Dick".
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 1, 2022 18:32:27 GMT
Seriously, would anyone name their name child "Gaylord" now? No. With that being said, who is the youngest "Dick" that you know? I had a kid in my middle/high school named Dick Stewart. By the time we were in high school, he was trying to change it up to Rich Stewart. None of us were having it. I'm sure his college friends only knew him as "Rich". I'm 52 and I don't anyone younger than me named "Dick". My father in law was called "Dick". Like Dick Allen, he though "Rich" or "Richie" made him sound like a kid. And, since we was 6'7", 280 and an ex-marine no one gave him a lot of shit over it. And he grew up in a different era.
The one who got me was race car driver Dick Trickle. Richie Trickle just sounds so much better.
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Post by tristramshandy on Dec 1, 2022 21:24:08 GMT
No. With that being said, who is the youngest "Dick" that you know? I had a kid in my middle/high school named Dick Stewart. By the time we were in high school, he was trying to change it up to Rich Stewart. None of us were having it. I'm sure his college friends only knew him as "Rich". I'm 52 and I don't anyone younger than me named "Dick". My father in law was called "Dick". Like Dick Allen, he though "Rich" or "Richie" made him sound like a kid. And, since we was 6'7", 280 and an ex-marine no one gave him a lot of shit over it. And he grew up in a different era.
The one who got me was race car driver Dick Trickle. Richie Trickle just sounds so much better.
Every time I see the credits for seemingly two-thirds of NBC procedurals and I see "Dick Wolf" mentioned, I think about his age and his clout. It's the only way you can get by with "Dick" anymore. (To be honest, I also think about some strange canine species called the dick wolf as well)
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 1, 2022 22:12:39 GMT
My father in law was called "Dick". Like Dick Allen, he though "Rich" or "Richie" made him sound like a kid. And, since we was 6'7", 280 and an ex-marine no one gave him a lot of shit over it. And he grew up in a different era.
The one who got me was race car driver Dick Trickle. Richie Trickle just sounds so much better.
Every time I see the credits for seemingly two-thirds of NBC procedurals and I see "Dick Wolf" mentioned, I think about his age and his clout. It's the only way you can get by with "Dick" anymore. (To be honest, I also think about some strange canine species called the dick wolf as well) I've heard of a "dire wolf". It's an extinct species of wolf. I think the wolves in Game of Thrones were Dire Wolves.
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Post by Surly on Dec 2, 2022 4:20:01 GMT
R.I.P Mr. Perry
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Post by politicidal on Dec 2, 2022 19:09:51 GMT
R.I.P.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 2, 2022 19:54:09 GMT
He was fun to watch. Him, Luis Tiant, Fernando Valenzuela and Mark Fidrych. Perry would go through all that rigamarole, Licking his fingers dramatically, wiping, or pretending to wipe them on the brim of his hat, his uniform everywhere. The real fun was that a batter isn't know if the "Super Sinker" (as Vin Scully called it) was coming or not. And, when it did, that ball was magical.
Personality, I wouldn't mind seeing the spitter legalized. People think that the ol' Slobberball is automatic. Your granny could drool on a baseball and make it dance like Gypsy Rose Lee. It takes skill to throw the thing, just like a knuckleball. And, like the knuckleball, if it doesn't work you are throwing a 60 mph "fastball'. Ford Frick lobbied for the ban to be lifted in the 50's but it went nowhere.
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Post by Horselover Fat on Dec 2, 2022 20:19:49 GMT
the spitball was banned in two stages. In the winter of 1919–1920, managers voted to partially ban the spitball. Each team was allowed to designate up to two pitchers who would be permitted to throw spitballs. After the 1920 season, the use of the spitball was banned with the exception of a group of 17 existing spitballers, who became legacy spitballers and allowed to throw the pitch legally until they retired. Of the exempted group, Burleigh Grimes lasted the longest, retiring in 1934. The complete list of exempted spitballers is: Ray Fisher (played through 1920); Doc Ayers (1921); Ray Caldwell (1921); Phil Douglas (1922); Dana Fillingim (1925); Marv Goodwin (1925); Dutch Leonard (1925); Allen Russell (1925); Allen Sothoron (1926); Dick Rudolph (1927); Stan Coveleski (1928); Urban Shocker (1928); Bill Doak (1929); Clarence Mitchell (1932); Red Faber (1933); Jack Quinn (1933); and Grimes. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpitballGuy on my high school team threw a knuckle curve but he had to watch out for blisters or broken fingernails. Have to take him out if he can't throw the knuckler. |
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 2, 2022 20:41:41 GMT
the spitball was banned in two stages. In the winter of 1919–1920, managers voted to partially ban the spitball. Each team was allowed to designate up to two pitchers who would be permitted to throw spitballs. After the 1920 season, the use of the spitball was banned with the exception of a group of 17 existing spitballers, who became legacy spitballers and allowed to throw the pitch legally until they retired. Of the exempted group, Burleigh Grimes lasted the longest, retiring in 1934. The complete list of exempted spitballers is: Ray Fisher (played through 1920); Doc Ayers (1921); Ray Caldwell (1921); Phil Douglas (1922); Dana Fillingim (1925); Marv Goodwin (1925); Dutch Leonard (1925); Allen Russell (1925); Allen Sothoron (1926); Dick Rudolph (1927); Stan Coveleski (1928); Urban Shocker (1928); Bill Doak (1929); Clarence Mitchell (1932); Red Faber (1933); Jack Quinn (1933); and Grimes. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpitballGuy on my high school team threw a knuckle curve but he had to watch out for blisters or broken fingernails. Have to take him out if he can't throw the knuckler. One pitcher who got on the wrong side of the ban was Frank Shellenback. He debuted in 1918 with the White Sox, when the majors were hungry for live arms as WWI was beginning to cripple the talent pool. Shellenback came back in 1919 but Chicago was overloaded with pitchers, Ed Cicotte, Lefty Williams, Dickie Kerr, Red Faber etc. So the White Sox sent Shellenback to Minneapolis. It was double edged sword in a way. It kept Frank was from the Black Sox and the 1919 World Series. But his spitball was banned from the majors. But not the Pacific Coast League. Shellenback won 315 games in the PCL. Remember, the minors in the 20's and 30's were not the minors of today. Put a AAA team from 2022 in the AL and they would lose 140 games easy. A top team from the IL or the PCL wouldn't win a pennant but many could be competitive, maybe even .500. Would Shellenback won 300 games in the majors no. But he could have been a very good pitcher, like Burleigh Grimes or Red Faber. He was only 20 years old when the ban came.
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Post by Horselover Fat on Dec 2, 2022 21:12:25 GMT
the spitball was banned in two stages. In the winter of 1919–1920, managers voted to partially ban the spitball. Each team was allowed to designate up to two pitchers who would be permitted to throw spitballs. After the 1920 season, the use of the spitball was banned with the exception of a group of 17 existing spitballers, who became legacy spitballers and allowed to throw the pitch legally until they retired. Of the exempted group, Burleigh Grimes lasted the longest, retiring in 1934. The complete list of exempted spitballers is: Ray Fisher (played through 1920); Doc Ayers (1921); Ray Caldwell (1921); Phil Douglas (1922); Dana Fillingim (1925); Marv Goodwin (1925); Dutch Leonard (1925); Allen Russell (1925); Allen Sothoron (1926); Dick Rudolph (1927); Stan Coveleski (1928); Urban Shocker (1928); Bill Doak (1929); Clarence Mitchell (1932); Red Faber (1933); Jack Quinn (1933); and Grimes. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpitballGuy on my high school team threw a knuckle curve but he had to watch out for blisters or broken fingernails. Have to take him out if he can't throw the knuckler. One pitcher who got on the wrong side of the ban was Frank Shellenback. He debuted in 1918 with the White Sox, when the majors were hungry for live arms as WWI was beginning to cripple the talent pool. Shellenback came back in 1919 but Chicago was overloaded with pitchers, Ed Cicotte, Lefty Williams, Dickie Kerr, Red Faber etc. So the White Sox sent Shellenback to Minneapolis. It was double edged sword in a way. It kept Frank was from the Black Sox and the 1919 World Series. But his spitball was banned from the majors. But not the Pacific Coast League. Shellenback won 315 games in the PCL. Remember, the minors in the 20's and 30's were not the minors of today. Put a AAA team from 2022 in the AL and they would lose 140 games easy. A top team from the IL or the PCL wouldn't win a pennant but many could be competitive, maybe even .500. Would Shellenback won 300 games in the majors no. But he could have been a very good pitcher, like Burleigh Grimes or Red Faber. He was only 20 years old when the ban came.
In American Legion ball when I still played shortstop (moved to third) I had a guy hit a line drive knuckler right at me that hit me square in the chest. My second baseman was laughing at me. I go, "Did you see that thing? It was knuckling like a son of a bitch." Made me look like a fool and impossible to catch.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 2, 2022 21:26:47 GMT
One pitcher who got on the wrong side of the ban was Frank Shellenback. He debuted in 1918 with the White Sox, when the majors were hungry for live arms as WWI was beginning to cripple the talent pool. Shellenback came back in 1919 but Chicago was overloaded with pitchers, Ed Cicotte, Lefty Williams, Dickie Kerr, Red Faber etc. So the White Sox sent Shellenback to Minneapolis. It was double edged sword in a way. It kept Frank was from the Black Sox and the 1919 World Series. But his spitball was banned from the majors. But not the Pacific Coast League. Shellenback won 315 games in the PCL. Remember, the minors in the 20's and 30's were not the minors of today. Put a AAA team from 2022 in the AL and they would lose 140 games easy. A top team from the IL or the PCL wouldn't win a pennant but many could be competitive, maybe even .500. Would Shellenback won 300 games in the majors no. But he could have been a very good pitcher, like Burleigh Grimes or Red Faber. He was only 20 years old when the ban came.
In American Legion ball when I still played shortstop (moved to third) I had a guy hit a line drive knuckler right at me that hit me square in the chest. My second baseman was laughing at me. I go, "Did you see that thing? It was knuckling like a son of a bitch." Made me look like a fool and impossible to catch. A good friend of mine was a pitcher on out HS baseball team. he would throw a decent knuckleball. But he could only get it to work occasionally. He tired to throw a spitball but he couldn't get it to work. Like I said, it's not an automatic out pitch. You have to get the right amount of stuff on the ball, release it perfectly and at the perfect speed. Not to fast or it doesn't fall away, not to slow or it breaks too soon. And it it doesn't work, it either falls two feet in front of home plate or its a 60 mph gopher ball.
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Post by Horselover Fat on Dec 2, 2022 21:32:01 GMT
In American Legion ball when I still played shortstop (moved to third) I had a guy hit a line drive knuckler right at me that hit me square in the chest. My second baseman was laughing at me. I go, "Did you see that thing? It was knuckling like a son of a bitch." Made me look like a fool and impossible to catch. A good friend of mine was a pitcher on out HS baseball team. he would throw a decent knuckleball. But he could only get it to work occasionally. He tired to throw a spitball but he couldn't get it to work. Like I said, it's not an automatic out pitch. You have to get the right amount of stuff on the ball, release it perfectly and at the perfect speed. Not to fast or it doesn't fall away, not to slow or it breaks too soon. And it it doesn't work, it either falls two feet in front of home plate or its a 60 mph gopher ball.
I could not even throw a decent knuckleball just playing catch and I played baseball all my life. And I tried. Mine would always slowly tumble at best. I never even understood the mechanics of the spitter. Do you throw it with your fingers gripping the lubricant or is the spit on the other side making it spin funny?
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Post by petrolino on Dec 2, 2022 22:40:08 GMT
R.I.P.
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