djorno
Sophomore
@djorno
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Post by djorno on Jan 27, 2023 0:27:16 GMT
I hate him about as much as I hate Sauron, Voldemort, or Emperor Palpatine. None of them are real, so “hate” applies in the fantasy sense only. They are terrible characters, but nothing that evokes an emotional response outside of the fiction. What is it about Jesus that you would consider him as villainous as those three? Not arguing, just curious. Not trying to speak for CaptainBryce but I suspect it has a little something to do with sin.
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Post by clusium on Jan 27, 2023 4:28:06 GMT
Another website. Still doesn't solve the problem of not having reliable sources. Google the Malankara Orthodox Church, & any source that you will find online will tell you that the Church was founded when St.Thomas the Apostle went to India. They are even called "The St. Thomas Christians." If you want to express or refute that, then you, yourself will have to come up with an explanation as to how Christianity entered into India - a staunchly predominate Hindu country, which even drove out Buddhism - 2,000 years ago.
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 27, 2023 16:57:16 GMT
St. Thomas even travelled all the way out to India to preach the Gospel. Where did you hear this? Where did you hear this? 😏
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 27, 2023 18:08:45 GMT
I hate him about as much as I hate Sauron, Voldemort, or Emperor Palpatine. None of them are real, so “hate” applies in the fantasy sense only. They are terrible characters, but nothing that evokes an emotional response outside of the fiction. What is it about Jesus that you would consider him as villainous as those three? Not arguing, just curious. I’ll begin my answer simply by quoting words attributed to Jesus, without any “interpretation” to poison the well. You can drawn your own moral conclusions from these statements. The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.“ Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.” “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn“‘a man against his father,a daughter against her mother,a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.” “And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.“ …now before I continue…my position on whoever said those words is - fuck ^this guy! Christians like to distance themselves from the Old Testament as much as possible (for obvious reasons), but Jesus is also called “God” by most Christians, which means he is responsible for all of God’s moral failures as well. This includes all of the commandments he gave in the Old Testament (which he supports). [Mark 7:8; John 14:15; Matthew 5:17; Matthew 19:17]. This means that all of the commandments about owning slaves, and killing gays, and committing genocides in his name…yeah, that’s on him too! As is his decision to drown all of the children of Earth in a flood, harden Pharaoh’s heart so that he could kill all of the Egyptian firstborn as a demonstration of his power, and send bears to maul 42 children. Tracie Harris said this best: “You either have a god who sends child rapists to rape children, OR you have a god who simply watches and says ‘I’m going to punish you when you’re done!’ If I could stop a child from being raped, I would! That’s the difference between me and your god!” The notion of tormenting people in hell for all eternity (not for doing bad things, but rather for not believing in him and worshipping him) is the worst kind of evil ever imagined. And it comes from the NEW Testament, not the Old Testament! Jesus absolutely endorses this because he’s a fucking narcissist and humans are nothing more than his playthings! Remember, love HIM more than you love your family or you are not worthy of him. Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. An infinite punishment for a finite crime is not “justice”, it’s a travesty of justice. And if a child rapist priest who who becomes a sycophant can be “saved”, while the raped child who denounced religion because of his trauma gets tortured for eternity, then whoever made the rule is a MONSTER!
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Post by general313 on Jan 27, 2023 20:08:49 GMT
What is it about Jesus that you would consider him as villainous as those three? Not arguing, just curious. Not trying to speak for CaptainBryce but I suspect it has a little something to do with sin. What if I assumed that you reject Islam, and the reason you do is because of your sinfulness? That doesn't make any more sense than your "suspicions".
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Post by clusium on Jan 27, 2023 21:01:44 GMT
St. Thomas even travelled all the way out to India to preach the Gospel. Where did you hear this? Where did you hear this? 😏 You used to be a devout Christian. You can answer that yourself.
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Post by Sarge on Jan 27, 2023 22:06:13 GMT
Another website. Still doesn't solve the problem of not having reliable sources. Google the Malankara Orthodox Church, & any source that you will find online will tell you that the Church was founded when St.Thomas the Apostle went to India. They are even called "The St. Thomas Christians." If you want to express or refute that, then you, yourself will have to come up with an explanation as to how Christianity entered into India - a staunchly predominate Hindu country, which even drove out Buddhism - 2,000 years ago. Christianity is in Oklahoma, but Doubting Thomas didn't bring it there. I said you have no reliable sources for (all) the claims you made and gave reasons that you or anyone are free to fact check and find they are true. If you want to refute that then YOU have to produce reliable sources. We both know you can't. You picked the easiest claim to defend and still failed. Panicked googling for websites that say what you want, isn't research.
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Post by clusium on Jan 27, 2023 23:41:53 GMT
Google the Malankara Orthodox Church, & any source that you will find online will tell you that the Church was founded when St.Thomas the Apostle went to India. They are even called "The St. Thomas Christians." If you want to express or refute that, then you, yourself will have to come up with an explanation as to how Christianity entered into India - a staunchly predominate Hindu country, which even drove out Buddhism - 2,000 years ago. Christianity is in Oklahoma, but Doubting Thomas didn't bring it there. I said you have no reliable sources for (all) the claims you made and gave reasons that you or anyone are free to fact check and find they are true. If you want to refute that then YOU have to produce reliable sources. We both know you can't. You picked the easiest claim to defend and still failed. Panicked googling for websites that say what you want, isn't research. That's probably because the United States (which Oklahoma is a part of) would not come into existence for another 1754 years. All sources for the Indian Orthodox Church (aka the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church) give St. Thomas as its creator. Therefore, it is up to YOU to refute that.
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Post by Sarge on Jan 28, 2023 1:33:25 GMT
Christianity is in Oklahoma, but Doubting Thomas didn't bring it there. I said you have no reliable sources for (all) the claims you made and gave reasons that you or anyone are free to fact check and find they are true. If you want to refute that then YOU have to produce reliable sources. We both know you can't. You picked the easiest claim to defend and still failed. Panicked googling for websites that say what you want, isn't research. That's probably because the United States (which Oklahoma is a part of) would not come into existence for another 1754 years. All sources for the Indian Orthodox Church (aka the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church) give St. Thomas as its creator. Therefore, it is up to YOU to refute that. It's because Christianity spread all over, with or without Thomas. You haven't given any sources except websites and I'm pretty sure they aren't 2000 years old.
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Post by clusium on Jan 28, 2023 2:37:44 GMT
That's probably because the United States (which Oklahoma is a part of) would not come into existence for another 1754 years. All sources for the Indian Orthodox Church (aka the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church) give St. Thomas as its creator. Therefore, it is up to YOU to refute that. It's because Christianity spread all over, with or without Thomas. You haven't given any sources except websites and I'm pretty sure they aren't 2000 years old. That's because the Apostles "went out into the world to preach to all nations & Baptize them in the Name Of the Father, and Of the Son, and Of the Holy Spirit (St. Matthew chapter 28, verse 19)." And it is pretty hard not to give you a website, as a source, seeing as you & are both conversing on a website.
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djorno
Sophomore
@djorno
Posts: 322
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Post by djorno on Jan 28, 2023 8:26:23 GMT
Not trying to speak for CaptainBryce but I suspect it has a little something to do with sin. What if I assumed that you reject Islam, and the reason you do is because of your sinfulness? That doesn't make any more sense than your "suspicions". You’d be right. I reject Islam because of my sinfulness, because as a sinner and after investigating the religion I realise there is no salvation in Islam. This is why I am a Christian. When I investigate why people become atheists, a lot of the time I find sin is the primary factor, especially former Christians. I discovered that often for those that became disillusioned, there's always something sexual as a motivator in the backstory. From my experience many people who profess to be atheists simply do not want to believe in or follow God, because they just want to do what they want to do. The last few threads I’ve started here has supported that claim. Most here have virtually stated they wouldn’t follow Christianity or God even if it were proven to be true. Some bent over backwards to avoid even answering the question because of the implications.
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djorno
Sophomore
@djorno
Posts: 322
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Post by djorno on Jan 28, 2023 8:38:28 GMT
Sauron, Voldemort and Emperor Palpatine are intended fictional characters though. The Jesus of the bible is at the very least based on a historic person. With a lot of corroborative evidence that supports the narrative so I’d say that’s a bit of a faulty comparison. You can say whatever you want to say. I believe they are ALL fictional characters. You haven’t yet given a good reason as to why though. Please elaborate. How did you come to the conclusion Paul was the “inventor of Jesus”? How did Paul “increase his power” by “inventing” Jesus?
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 28, 2023 11:23:18 GMT
Where did you hear this? Where did you hear this? 😏 You used to be a devout Christian. You can answer that yourself. Can you stop being dishonest for one second and have a “good faith” conversation? It doesn’t matter what I used to be or what questions I can answer. I’m asking about YOU right now because you are making claims. So just humor me. Where did you hear that Thomas traveled to India to preach the Gospel or that Paul persecuted Christians?
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 28, 2023 11:32:08 GMT
You can say whatever you want to say. I believe they are ALL fictional characters. You haven’t yet given a good reason as to why though. Because neither you (nor anyone else) has ever given a good reason why I should accept one as historical. Telling me that it was intended to be accepted as historical doesn’t justify the position that it IS historical. The truth of a proposition stands independent from what anyone asserts, believes, or intends regarding that proposition. And just because the inventor of Jesus (Paul) intended for his invention to be “believed” doesn’t mean it’s rooted in fact. Please elaborate. How did you come to the conclusion Paul was the “inventor of Jesus”? Chronologically speaking, who is the first biblical author to make claims about Jesus? Jesus seems to begin with Paul as far as anyone can validate. That’s a good reason to think he is Paul’s invention. It’s still an invented character. Author JK Rowling’s intent was to make money by entertaining people. Author St. Paul’s intent was to increase his power by manipulating people. Both of them accomplished their goals. How did Paul “increase his power” by “inventing” Jesus? Did Paul not gain immeasurable followers after he supposedly converted to Christianity and preaching the Gospel? Are not his writings the predominant source of information concerning the entire Christian religion? Isn't Paul venerated as a “Saint” by the Roman Church right now?
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Post by clusium on Jan 28, 2023 15:13:03 GMT
You used to be a devout Christian. You can answer that yourself. Can you stop being dishonest for one second and have a “good faith” conversation? It doesn’t matter what I used to be or what questions I can answer. I’m asking about YOU right now because you are making claims. So just humor me. Where did you hear that Thomas traveled to India to preach the Gospel or that Paul persecuted Christians? Last time I checked (since you insist on asking a stupid question regarding St. Paul that you should already know the answer to), the story of St. Paul going after Christians is in the NT, in particular in the Book of Acts, beginning with him cheering on the execution of St. Stephen, going all the way up to when he was Accosted By Our Lord on the way to Damascus, thereby making Paul realize that the Lord Jesus Is indeed, the long-awaited Messiah. Of course you should already know this. Back to St. Thomas: Orthodox Churches are just like the Catholic Church: They have Apostolic Succession. The Greek Orthodox trace their lineage to St. Andrew the brother of St. Peter; the Coptic Orthodox trace their Popes to St. Mark the Evangelist; and the Malankara Syrian Orthodox, aka the Indian Orthodox Church, traces its lineage to St. Thomas.
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Post by general313 on Jan 28, 2023 16:50:43 GMT
What if I assumed that you reject Islam, and the reason you do is because of your sinfulness? That doesn't make any more sense than your "suspicions". 1) You’d be right. I reject Islam because of my sinfulness, because as a sinner and after investigating the religion I realise there is no salvation in Islam. This is why I am a Christian. 2) When I investigate why people become atheists, a lot of the time I find sin is the primary factor, especially former Christians. I discovered that often for those that became disillusioned, there's always something sexual as a motivator in the backstory. 3) From my experience many people who profess to be atheists simply do not want to believe in or follow God, because they just want to do what they want to do. 4) The last few threads I’ve started here has supported that claim. Most here have virtually stated they wouldn’t follow Christianity or God even if it were proven to be true. Some bent over backwards to avoid even answering the question because of the implications. 1) It's not really the same thing though, in your case you're rejecting a religion because you think it doesn't remedy your perceived sins. In the other cases, you're suggesting (it seems to me) that they reject the True Religion because of sin (and therefore increment their sin counter). It seems to me that you're making an accusation about Bryce and others that don't agree with you, but not in your case (in so far as your process of choosing your religion). 2, 3) The reason I stopped believing is because of lack of evidence. It had nothing to do with sex. Having followed a career path that involves science, I have appreciated how rationalism, observation, experimentation and evidence have played a decisive role in advancing knowlege about the world throughout history, to such an extent that people in all continents can agree on the details. That's completely not the case with religion, and explaining that fact has everything to do with why I'm no longer a Christian, and has nothing to do with sex. You must have some funny acquaintances to have formed the opinion that sex is responsible for people leaving the church. 4) I don't think you can draw any clear conclusion about that, given how vague the phrase "Christianity or God even if it were proven to be true" is.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 28, 2023 16:58:17 GMT
Another website. Still doesn't solve the problem of not having reliable sources. Google the Malankara Orthodox Church, & any source that you will find online will tell you that the Church was founded when St.Thomas the Apostle went to India. They are even called "The St. Thomas Christians." If you want to express or refute that, then you, yourself will have to come up with an explanation as to how Christianity entered into India - a staunchly predominate Hindu country, which even drove out Buddhism - 2,000 years ago. Roman Christian merchants living in the trading cities. This is how Christianity spread from Palestine to Italy. Paul preached The Way as he sold canvas as tent maker.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 28, 2023 17:07:54 GMT
You haven’t yet given a good reason as to why though. Because neither you (nor anyone else) has ever given a good reason why I should accept one as historical. Telling me that it was intended to be accepted as historical doesn’t justify the position that it IS historical. The truth of a proposition stands independent from what anyone asserts, believes, or intends regarding that proposition. Please elaborate. How did you come to the conclusion Paul was the “inventor of Jesus”? Chronologically speaking, who is the first biblical author to make claims about Jesus? Jesus seems to begin with Paul as far as anyone can validate. That’s a good reason to think he is Paul’s invention. How did Paul “increase his power” by “inventing” Jesus? Did Paul not gain immeasurable followers after he supposedly converted to Christianity and preaching the Gospel? Are not his writings the predominant source of information concerning the entire Christian religion? Isn't Paul venerated as a “Saint” by the Roman Church right now? Paul never converted to “Christianity.” He views The Way as the bonafide Jewish Apocalypse as preached by outlier Jews like Jesus who Paul believes to be the first human being to be risen from his earthly tomb. Paul says clearly he is a Jew and could be nothing else, but he doesn’t think the Resurrection of the Dead is limited to Jews only as Jesus did.
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 28, 2023 17:24:34 GMT
Last time I checked ... the story of St. Paul going after Christians is in the NT, in particular in the Book of Acts Cool. Who exactly wrote the Book of Acts (and when was it written)? Back to St. Thomas: Orthodox Churches are just like the Catholic Church: They have Apostolic Succession. The Greek Orthodox trace their lineage to St. Andrew the brother of St. Peter; the Coptic Orthodox trace their Popes to St. Mark the Evangelist; and the Malankara Syrian Orthodox, aka the Indian Orthodox Church, traces its lineage to St. Thomas. That's NOT what I asked you. I don't give a rats fuck about where any religious denominations claims it traces its roots too. I asked you, where did you HEAR that Thomas "traveled to India" to preach the Gospel. Is that written in ANY Gospel account, New Testament scripture, or contemporary accounts? Yes or no?
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 28, 2023 17:31:34 GMT
Because neither you (nor anyone else) has ever given a good reason why I should accept one as historical. Telling me that it was intended to be accepted as historical doesn’t justify the position that it IS historical. The truth of a proposition stands independent from what anyone asserts, believes, or intends regarding that proposition. Chronologically speaking, who is the first biblical author to make claims about Jesus? Jesus seems to begin with Paul as far as anyone can validate. That’s a good reason to think he is Paul’s invention. Did Paul not gain immeasurable followers after he supposedly converted to Christianity and preaching the Gospel? Are not his writings the predominant source of information concerning the entire Christian religion? Isn't Paul venerated as a “Saint” by the Roman Church right now? Paul never converted to “Christianity.” He views The Way as the bonafide Jewish Apocalypse as preached by outlier Jews like Jesus who Paul believes to be the first human being to be risen from his earthly tomb. Paul says clearly he is a Jew and could be nothing else, but he doesn’t think the Resurrection of the Dead is limited to Jews only as Jesus did. I'm using the words "Conversion" and "Christianity" very loosely here. I simply mean that he publicly identified as someone who accepts "the Gospel" as truth. Obviously it's not a "conversion" since he still identifies as Jewish. But this would theoretically be true of the multitudes of Jewish disciples who Christ supposedly preached to. They were "Christians" in the sense that they were following the religion based on Jesus Christ being the Jewish messiah. But my point is that all of them were actually following PAUL because none of those stories are true - and Paul made most of it up (with help from others who believed him).
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