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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jan 6, 2023 4:01:46 GMT
What do you think it means to be supernatural? Literally beyond nature. Science only deals with nature. So, supernatural beings are beings beyond nature? Is that an accurate definition?
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 6, 2023 4:02:45 GMT
Literally beyond nature. Science only deals with nature. So, supernatural beings are beings beyond nature? Is that an accurate definition? If you can prove they exist. What evidence do you have?
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jan 6, 2023 4:06:39 GMT
So, supernatural beings are beings beyond nature? Is that an accurate definition? If you can prove they exist. What evidence do you have? No, I don't have to prove they exist. They're supernatural, remember?
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 6, 2023 4:11:07 GMT
If you can prove they exist. What evidence do you have? No, I don't have to prove they exist. They're supernatural, remember? Not to yourself. You’re not supposed to, you’re supposed to have faith and ask no questions. The moment you do, you’ve entered the realm of the ordinary natural world where extraordinary claims like a god made this physical universe require extraordinary proof.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2023 4:17:20 GMT
What do you think it means to be supernatural? Literally beyond nature. Science only deals with nature. It simply means not bound by natural law. Is that what you mean when you say "literally beyond nature"?
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 6, 2023 4:29:30 GMT
Literally beyond nature. Science only deals with nature. It simply means not bound by natural law. Is that what you mean when you say "literally beyond nature"?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2023 4:56:10 GMT
It simply means not bound by natural law. Is that what you mean when you say "literally beyond nature"? So Google is only an algorithm when you aren't looking up etymological origins? Quoting a web page that says the same thing as you did doesn't help me understand what you meant. If something is "literally beyond nature," would it be bound by natural law?
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 6, 2023 5:02:37 GMT
So Google is only an algorithm when you aren't looking up etymological origins? Quoting a web page that says the same thing as you did doesn't help me understand what you meant. If something is "literally beyond nature," would it be bound by natural law?You can only prove things in the natural world. If God is natural then he should be provable. The clash between science and religion is provability.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jan 6, 2023 5:10:15 GMT
So Google is only an algorithm when you aren't looking up etymological origins? Quoting a web page that says the same thing as you did doesn't help me understand what you meant. If something is "literally beyond nature," would it be bound by natural law?You can only prove things in the natural world. If God is natural then he should be provable. The clash between science and religion is provability. I don't see the clash. They don't compete. One deals with one thing, and the other with something else.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2023 5:14:52 GMT
So Google is only an algorithm when you aren't looking up etymological origins? Quoting a web page that says the same thing as you did doesn't help me understand what you meant. If something is "literally beyond nature," would it be bound by natural law?You can only prove things in the natural world. If God is natural then he should be provable. The clash between science and religion is provability. Would it be fair to say that anything science can't prove (or hasn't yet) is supernatural? Or does that just apply to God? And what of those quantum particles that appear to defy physics? Are they not literally beyond nature?
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Post by averagejoe2021 on Jan 6, 2023 5:36:52 GMT
You can only prove things in the natural world. If God is natural then he should be provable. The clash between science and religion is provability. I don't see the clash. They don't compete. One deals with one thing, and the other with something else. Not only is there no clash... but often one reinforces the other. That's why you find a higher degree of mathematicians, physicists, and astronomers believe/acknowledge God's existence. Indeed, it's more a question of how much of God's being/nature we can try our best to understand (but will always come up short). I myself came to better understand the probabilities and nature of God through science and math. Paul is wrong as God by definition is not natural, but supernatural.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 6, 2023 5:38:01 GMT
You can only prove things in the natural world. If God is natural then he should be provable. The clash between science and religion is provability. I don't see the clash. They don't compete. One deals with one thing, and the other with something else. This is what I said in the beginning and keep explaining. Also, you can’t use one to prove the other. God or any number of gods, spirits, angels, and saints can live in the supernatural world, but there is no way to count them. You can speculate on them using philosophy or theology, since neither department requires facts, but science has nothing to say about it. It’s atheist.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jan 6, 2023 5:40:43 GMT
I don't see the clash. They don't compete. One deals with one thing, and the other with something else. This is what I said in the beginning and keep explaining. Also, you can’t use one to prove the other. God or any number of gods, spirits, angels, and saints can live in the supernatural world, but there is no way to count them. You can speculate on them using philosophy or theology, since neither department requires facts, but science has nothing to say about it. It’s atheist. Maybe we have a different definition for the word "clash" then.
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Post by averagejoe2021 on Jan 6, 2023 5:42:42 GMT
If you can prove they exist. What evidence do you have? No, I don't have to prove they exist. They're supernatural, remember? He's also presuming that the default is naturalism (intellectually faulty premise). Indeed, a true argument would consist of starting from a natural position and then deducing (based upon the evidence we can demonstrate to this point) if there is a stronger argument for naturalism or supernaturalism. Using the finite components of energy, the laws of causality, the cosmological argument, etc. I find the evidence far more strongly supports a supernaturalistic interpretation of the universe. The question for me is more the nature of God which can change the more we learn.... but we're always growing in that regard.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 6, 2023 5:44:04 GMT
I don't see the clash. They don't compete. One deals with one thing, and the other with something else. Not only is there no clash... but often one reinforces the other. That's why you find a higher degree of mathematicians, physicists, and astronomers believe/acknowledge God's existence. Indeed, it's more a question of how much of God's being we can try our best to understand (but will always come up short). I myself came to better understand the probabilities and nature of God through science and math. Paul is wrong as God by definition is not natural, but supernatural.That’s a personal philosophy, and certainly scientists can have mystical and religious experiences, but none of them would claim their belief in this experience is back up by evidence. That’s what Paul has been saying. Maybe you guys should read Paul before asking Paul a question. Science is a realm of evidence, faith is belief in the absence of evidence. The moment you require evidence for God, you’ve lost faith.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 6, 2023 5:47:11 GMT
No, I don't have to prove they exist. They're supernatural, remember? He's also presuming that the default is naturalism (intellectually faulty premise). Indeed, a true argument would consist of starting from a natural position and then deducing (based upon the evidence we can demonstrate to this point) if there is a stronger argument for naturalism or supernaturalism. Using the finite components of energy, the laws of causality, the cosmological argument, etc. I find the evidence far more strongly supports a supernaturalistic interpretation of the universe. The question for me is more the nature of God which can change the more we learn.... but we're always growing in that regard. You’re talking philosophy, get back to a place with hard evidence in it.
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Post by paulslaugh on Jan 6, 2023 5:50:10 GMT
This is what I said in the beginning and keep explaining. Also, you can’t use one to prove the other. God or any number of gods, spirits, angels, and saints can live in the supernatural world, but there is no way to count them. You can speculate on them using philosophy or theology, since neither department requires facts, but science has nothing to say about it. It’s atheist. Maybe we have a different definition for the word "clash" then. The clash is, until a few hundreds years ago all of us would be burned at the stake for talking like we do…including Clusim.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2023 5:56:41 GMT
faith is belief in the absence of evidence Surely you meant to say absence of scientific proof. The evidence for God is similar to evidence of your parents. Your very existence is hard evidence that they exist, and so it's not unreasonable to believe they do. There is no need to "prove" it. I believe you have (or had) parents even though I've never seen them. Am I delusional? Would science disagree with me?
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Post by averagejoe2021 on Jan 6, 2023 5:56:55 GMT
Not only is there no clash... but often one reinforces the other. That's why you find a higher degree of mathematicians, physicists, and astronomers believe/acknowledge God's existence. Indeed, it's more a question of how much of God's being we can try our best to understand (but will always come up short). I myself came to better understand the probabilities and nature of God through science and math. Paul is wrong as God by definition is not natural, but supernatural.That’s a personal philosophy, and certainly scientists can have mystical and religious experiences, but none of them would claim their belief in this experience is back up by evidence. That’s what Paul has been saying. Maybe you guys should read Paul before asking Paul a question. Science is a realm of evidence, faith is belief in the absence of evidence. The moment you require evidence for God, you’ve lost faith. The end result is philosophical whether it be naturalistic or supernaturalistic. How one comes to said conclusions can depend upon a variety of circumstances whether it be culture, personal experience, or their field of expertise. I simply listed an example of sciences where their particular fields lended more credibility towards supernaturalism based upon their expertise. So while proof for either naturalism/supernaturalism is lacking...evidence is abundant. What one concludes form said evidence depends upon the individual. As I also became more learned in these fields it only strengthened the hypothesis of a supernaturalistic interpretation while weakening the naturalistic one. Providing evidence can strengthen faith. I see no rule that dictates you lose faith by learning more about the nature of God's world. Both conclusions in naturalism and supernaturalism can use faith as a guiding motivator. I found the scientific evidence seems to be more in line with the aforementioned fields towards a supernaturalistic interpretation. The bigger question is if God is more a personal or impersonal being and if personal, how can it be known?
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Post by averagejoe2021 on Jan 6, 2023 5:59:28 GMT
He's also presuming that the default is naturalism (intellectually faulty premise). Indeed, a true argument would consist of starting from a natural position and then deducing (based upon the evidence we can demonstrate to this point) if there is a stronger argument for naturalism or supernaturalism. Using the finite components of energy, the laws of causality, the cosmological argument, etc. I find the evidence far more strongly supports a supernaturalistic interpretation of the universe. The question for me is more the nature of God which can change the more we learn.... but we're always growing in that regard. You’re talking philosophy, get back to a place with hard evidence in it. Both the premise of naturalism and supernaturalism are philosophical. The real question is where the stronger evidence lies to come up with as a conclusion. Indeed, the laws of Causality and finites of energy (among several others) strongly demonstrate the flaws of a naturalistic interpretation. So, the stronger philosophical argument based upon the hard evidence (increasingly) disputes the notions of a natualistic interpretation.
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