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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 5:04:20 GMT
Seeing how certain folks get mad anytime they see a female character who isn't a useless shrieking damsel or secondary to the male lead, yes I think it's still important. But why would a writer gear their social message to idiots like that? How about something for the rest of us who already know girls can do anything? That’s my issue with it as a progressive. It's not geared at them, the shows are aimed at general audiences who should be mature enough to deal with women who aren't shrieking damsels.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 5:06:19 GMT
But why would a writer gear their social message to idiots like that? How about something for the rest of us who already know girls can do anything? That’s my issue with it as a progressive. It's not geared at them, the shows are aimed at general audiences who should be mature enough to deal with women who aren't shrieking damsels. Are they though? Are we still talking about She Hulk? Because hamfisted social commentary aside that show had some truly horrendous writing. So many of these female heroes are still one dimensional, just in a different way. That’s the irony of it. If they are for mature general audiences then drop the pandering and just write them as complex characters for a change.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 5:28:32 GMT
It's not geared at them, the shows are aimed at general audiences who should be mature enough to deal with women who aren't shrieking damsels. Are they though? Are we still talking about She Hulk? Because hamfisted social commentary aside that show had some truly horrendous writing. So many of these female heroes are still one dimensional, just in a different way. That’s the irony of it. If they are for mature general audiences then drop the pandering and just write them as complex characters for a change. It had no more worse writing than Seinfeld ever did.
Females in Superhero shows are always under harsher scrutiny than male characters, they get condemned as "One-Dimensional" when you can easily say the same thing about plenty of males too.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 19, 2023 5:35:31 GMT
Very well, Ronald W. Taylor, linkKamran Pasha, linkClifton Duncan, linkGiacomo Knox, link
That isn't an effective let alone substantial example, I am requesting specific times in specific videos where they say such a thing in a serious fashion. Your example of Dizzy from Starship Troopers being altered for the film iteration is valid to your argument, but my argument for why nobody cries about that change is I would say is equally as valid because the novel wasn't that extremely well-known and many audience members who saw the film version didn't even know it was based on a book till, they read the credits. Johnny Storm in 2015's film adaptation of the Fantastic Four, writer-director Josh Trank changed Johnny Storm and his father's established roots to serve his vision and made Sue Storm an adopted child, which altered the dynamic somewhat in relationships. Coming towards the release of the film, the studio tried to play into the conversation about the casting and try to make the film an important piece of media - which, evidently, didn't work. Fan baiting, which goes hand-in-hand with the description of forced diversity, is a marketing strategy in the entertainment industry where companies try to apply to deflect from criticism and paint all opposition as ignorant. Disney is getting ready to go in high gear with this business practice come the release of the live action The Little Mermaid this summer, See also, Being a female and taking issue with white males doesn't make Ripley a social justice warrior. I'll have to look them up and research them, thanks.
Me, I've worked with James Mullinger (https://www.jamesmullinger.com/), Brian Finlay (https://www.dtistudios.ca/), Adam Lordon (https://www.miramichi.org/mayor/) off the top of my head and never heard these complaints.
But it's still changing an established character.
As for Fant4stic, that was just a terrible movie in general and had no SJW messaging. The mess up wasn't making Franklin Storm and Johnny both black, it was keeping Sue white and saying she was adopted. She should've just been made black and biologically Franklins' daughter as well.
There was no real fan baiting, anything stating there was is just fake Grifter nonsense.
And at no point has Disney said "If they dislike the Little Mermaid they're racists". Not once.
By modern standards, it does make Ripley as SJW. Anything that makes a white man less means the person doing it is an SJW.
Very nice. I hope the working experience with them was fantastic. Must depend on experience at specific fields. It is, but as my argument follows people didn't have a huge issue because the novel isn't that widely known and has as much cultural impact as, say, Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. It had no social justice warrior messaging, but the casting and creative choice to make Sue Storm adopted was a very polarizing decision, and they tried the fan baiting approach towards the release of the film, but it didn't work (Midnight's Edge covered that in 2015, for reference). It's largely speculation, as both videos state as such, but not out of the realm of possibility given attempts by the large entertainment industry complex in the past. I also have not seen Disney make such a statement; time will tell if they want to play into that angle if the film actually tracks well.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 5:42:03 GMT
I'll have to look them up and research them, thanks.
Me, I've worked with James Mullinger (https://www.jamesmullinger.com/), Brian Finlay (https://www.dtistudios.ca/), Adam Lordon (https://www.miramichi.org/mayor/) off the top of my head and never heard these complaints.
But it's still changing an established character.
As for Fant4stic, that was just a terrible movie in general and had no SJW messaging. The mess up wasn't making Franklin Storm and Johnny both black, it was keeping Sue white and saying she was adopted. She should've just been made black and biologically Franklins' daughter as well.
There was no real fan baiting, anything stating there was is just fake Grifter nonsense.
And at no point has Disney said "If they dislike the Little Mermaid they're racists". Not once.
By modern standards, it does make Ripley as SJW. Anything that makes a white man less means the person doing it is an SJW.
Very nice. I hope the working experience with them was fantastic. Must depend on experience at specific fields. It is, but as my argument follows people didn't have a huge issue because the novel isn't that widely known and has as much cultural impact as, say, Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. It had no social justice warrior messaging, but the casting and creative choice to make Sue Storm adopted was a very polarizing decision, and they tried the fan baiting approach towards the release of the film, but it didn't work (Midnight's Edge covered that in 2015, for reference). It's largely speculation, as both videos state as such, but not out of the realm of possibility given attempts by the large entertainment industry complex in the past. I also have not seen Disney make such a statement; time will tell if they want to play into that angle if the film actually tracks well. It was, thank you.
It's still a big change. And the Peter Jackson movies changed a lot of things too, yet somehow a gender change is somehow a bigger thing than cutting out entire parts of the book.
Yes and the polarizing response would've been lessened if they'd gone all the way and just race swapped her too rather than keep her white. It was a case of not going far enough. The fan baiting didn't happen, Midnight's Edge deliberately exaggerated that.
Time will tell, but so far nothing's happened.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 5:45:11 GMT
Are they though? Are we still talking about She Hulk? Because hamfisted social commentary aside that show had some truly horrendous writing. So many of these female heroes are still one dimensional, just in a different way. That’s the irony of it. If they are for mature general audiences then drop the pandering and just write them as complex characters for a change. It had no more worse writing than Seinfeld ever did.
Females in Superhero shows are always under harsher scrutiny than male characters, they get condemned as "One-Dimensional" when you can easily say the same thing about plenty of males too.
Uh… What?! You seriously think She Hulk had Seinfeld level writing? Good lord, man. A more ludicrous statement has never been made!
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 19, 2023 8:52:24 GMT
Very nice. I hope the working experience with them was fantastic. Must depend on experience at specific fields. It is, but as my argument follows people didn't have a huge issue because the novel isn't that widely known and has as much cultural impact as, say, Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings. It had no social justice warrior messaging, but the casting and creative choice to make Sue Storm adopted was a very polarizing decision, and they tried the fan baiting approach towards the release of the film, but it didn't work (Midnight's Edge covered that in 2015, for reference). It's largely speculation, as both videos state as such, but not out of the realm of possibility given attempts by the large entertainment industry complex in the past. I also have not seen Disney make such a statement; time will tell if they want to play into that angle if the film actually tracks well. It was, thank you.
It's still a big change. And the Peter Jackson movies changed a lot of things too, yet somehow a gender change is somehow a bigger thing than cutting out entire parts of the book.
Yes and the polarizing response would've been lessened if they'd gone all the way and just race swapped her too rather than keep her white. It was a case of not going far enough. The fan baiting didn't happen, Midnight's Edge deliberately exaggerated that.
Time will tell, but so far nothing's happened.
You are welcome. The Starship Troopers movie makes many more deviations from its source material than Dizzy's sex, the novel's political views are also quite different from the film's. But as stated before, Starship Troopers isn't as iconic a story as Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, and people were upset that things in those films were changed, but Jackson still made an epic trilogy of cinema. "Fan baiting" wasn't even a term back in 2015 when Fantastic Four was released into theatres, and Midnight's Edge didn't use it then and made an analysis of an interview with the cast where they appeared to intentionally try to spark conversation regarding the casting. Back then, the channel was generally dedicated to reporting on the reports of development and production troubles from that project.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 19, 2023 13:22:17 GMT
Hiring writers who understand in ways old white writers wouldn't. Sounds fine.
Keeping outdated writers is what creates stories like "Trigger Warning" by William Johnstone and J A Johnstone.
I’m with you. What have old white writers ever given us? You're missing the point. Sometimes a different perspective is needed.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 13:38:49 GMT
It had no more worse writing than Seinfeld ever did.
Females in Superhero shows are always under harsher scrutiny than male characters, they get condemned as "One-Dimensional" when you can easily say the same thing about plenty of males too.
Uh… What?! You seriously think She Hulk had Seinfeld level writing? Good lord, man. A more ludicrous statement has never been made! Yes, I do. Plenty of times the characters and writing in Seinfeld would be awful but it's ignored because of the actors and their chemistry.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 13:40:34 GMT
It was, thank you.
It's still a big change. And the Peter Jackson movies changed a lot of things too, yet somehow a gender change is somehow a bigger thing than cutting out entire parts of the book.
Yes and the polarizing response would've been lessened if they'd gone all the way and just race swapped her too rather than keep her white. It was a case of not going far enough. The fan baiting didn't happen, Midnight's Edge deliberately exaggerated that.
Time will tell, but so far nothing's happened.
You are welcome. The Starship Troopers movie makes many more deviations from its source material than Dizzy's sex, the novel's political views are also quite different from the film's. But as stated before, Starship Troopers isn't as iconic a story as Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, and people were upset that things in those films were changed, but Jackson still made an epic trilogy of cinema. "Fan baiting" wasn't even a term back in 2015 when Fantastic Four was released into theatres, and Midnight's Edge didn't use it then and made an analysis of an interview with the cast where they appeared to intentionally try to spark conversation regarding the casting. Back then, the channel was generally dedicated to reporting on the reports of development and production troubles from that project. It still shows that they're willing to tolerate huge chunks of the story being cut out, and hypocritically they were fine with the women getting more to do than they did in the books.
"Fan Baiting" isn't a real term at all, it's another Boogeyman word.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2023 19:31:38 GMT
Uh… What?! You seriously think She Hulk had Seinfeld level writing? Good lord, man. A more ludicrous statement has never been made! Yes, I do. Plenty of times the characters and writing in Seinfeld would be awful but it's ignored because of the actors and their chemistry. Seinfeld was one of the most acclaimed comedies ever written. The writing was incredibly smart and funny. She Hulk is a low brow sitcom that can’t even meet the standards of your average network pilot. There isn’t a single quality joke in the whole run. This is literally the most absurd conversation I’ve ever had with anyone on this board.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 19, 2023 19:41:01 GMT
You are welcome. The Starship Troopers movie makes many more deviations from its source material than Dizzy's sex, the novel's political views are also quite different from the film's. But as stated before, Starship Troopers isn't as iconic a story as Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, and people were upset that things in those films were changed, but Jackson still made an epic trilogy of cinema. "Fan baiting" wasn't even a term back in 2015 when Fantastic Four was released into theatres, and Midnight's Edge didn't use it then and made an analysis of an interview with the cast where they appeared to intentionally try to spark conversation regarding the casting. Back then, the channel was generally dedicated to reporting on the reports of development and production troubles from that project. It still shows that they're willing to tolerate huge chunks of the story being cut out, and hypocritically they were fine with the women getting more to do than they did in the books.
"Fan Baiting" isn't a real term at all, it's another Boogeyman word.
A person can't really be called hypocritical if they are only familiar with one and not the other. A person who is much interested in Tolkien's Middle Earth but isn't so much with Starship Troopers won't be bothered as much by the changes made to the Starship Troopers movie than a cinematic adaptation of The Lord of the Rings. "fan baiting" is as real a term as "born sexy yesterday", it is fairly new and used to summarize a practice in craft.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jan 19, 2023 19:57:57 GMT
So if a woke film doesn't go broke, what does that mean?
Just wondering because the phrase "go woke, get broke" gets used a lot.
Also was Loki Woki?
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 22:07:48 GMT
Yes, I do. Plenty of times the characters and writing in Seinfeld would be awful but it's ignored because of the actors and their chemistry. Seinfeld was one of the most acclaimed comedies ever written. The writing was incredibly smart and funny. She Hulk is a low brow sitcom that can’t even meet the standards of your average network pilot. There isn’t a single quality joke in the whole run. This is literally the most absurd conversation I’ve ever had with anyone on this board. Seinfeld's characters (except Kramer) were as "selfish" and "vile" as everyone accused Jen of being in She-Hulk but no one cared because the acting and chemistry they had blinded people to this (until the Finale outright told us they were bad people) and the writing was never that smart. She-Hulk got praised by Dan Slott himself as super faithful to the comics and surpasses most everything on Network TV right now.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 19, 2023 22:09:48 GMT
It still shows that they're willing to tolerate huge chunks of the story being cut out, and hypocritically they were fine with the women getting more to do than they did in the books.
"Fan Baiting" isn't a real term at all, it's another Boogeyman word.
A person can't really be called hypocritical if they are only familiar with one and not the other. A person who is much interested in Tolkien's Middle Earth but isn't so much with Starship Troopers won't be bothered as much by the changes made to the Starship Troopers movie than a cinematic adaptation of The Lord of the Rings. "fan baiting" is as real a term as "born sexy yesterday", it is fairly new and used to summarize a practice in craft. They can be if they claim that all forms of this gender-swap and race-swap is wrong but have no problem with it in other films/series even if their excuse is "Well I don't know the source material". It just means they wont' do their homework.
Fan Baiting isn't real, it's a Boogeyman made up to falsely accuse Filmmakers that certain portions of the Hatedom have baseless vendettas against. "Born Sexy Yesterday" goes back years.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 19, 2023 23:28:43 GMT
A person can't really be called hypocritical if they are only familiar with one and not the other. A person who is much interested in Tolkien's Middle Earth but isn't so much with Starship Troopers won't be bothered as much by the changes made to the Starship Troopers movie than a cinematic adaptation of The Lord of the Rings. "fan baiting" is as real a term as "born sexy yesterday", it is fairly new and used to summarize a practice in craft. They can be if they claim that all forms of this gender-swap and race-swap is wrong but have no problem with it in other films/series even if their excuse is "Well I don't know the source material". It just means they wont' do their homework.
Fan Baiting isn't real, it's a Boogeyman made up to falsely accuse Filmmakers that certain portions of the Hatedom have baseless vendettas against. "Born Sexy Yesterday" goes back years.
But most are not speaking generally, when such a thing occurs, they highlight the content specifically, not of all storytelling. "Born Sexy Yesterday" was an admitted creation from a media observer in the video you shared in another topic of conversation. "Fan Baiting" is purely speculative, while the other is an emotional reaction to a story and character.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 19, 2023 23:33:02 GMT
Seinfeld was one of the most acclaimed comedies ever written. The writing was incredibly smart and funny. She Hulk is a low brow sitcom that can’t even meet the standards of your average network pilot. There isn’t a single quality joke in the whole run. This is literally the most absurd conversation I’ve ever had with anyone on this board. Seinfeld's characters (except Kramer) were as "selfish" and "vile" as everyone accused Jen of being in She-Hulk but no one cared because the acting and chemistry they had blinded people to this (until the Finale outright told us they were bad people) and the writing was never that smart. She-Hulk got praised by Dan Slott himself as super faithful to the comics and surpasses most everything on Network TV right now. I am sorry, but comparing She-Hulk in a serious way to that of Seinfeld on a writing level isn't going to make an effective argument. Not only are the two programs very different in design, but the critical and commercial appeal between the two just speaks volumes. She-Hulk's only good episode was its crossover with Daredevil, everything else felt like a mix-mash of ideas and approaches that didn't stick to landing. As for Dan Slott giving praise that shouldn't mean that a person has to like the series necessarily, Slott is also on Marvel's payroll and he has the habit of blocking many people who outright disagree with him which suggests he cannot take criticism very well and thus, for me, lessens his credibility.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 20, 2023 13:53:55 GMT
They can be if they claim that all forms of this gender-swap and race-swap is wrong but have no problem with it in other films/series even if their excuse is "Well I don't know the source material". It just means they wont' do their homework.
Fan Baiting isn't real, it's a Boogeyman made up to falsely accuse Filmmakers that certain portions of the Hatedom have baseless vendettas against. "Born Sexy Yesterday" goes back years.
But most are not speaking generally, when such a thing occurs, they highlight the content specifically, not of all storytelling. "Born Sexy Yesterday" was an admitted creation from a media observer in the video you shared in another topic of conversation. "Fan Baiting" is purely speculative, while the other is an emotional reaction to a story and character. They are speaking generally, they claim to hate it in any and all forms. Despite it happening in things they did enjoy or at least never complained about.
It's not a new creation, he gave several examples of how it's happened throughout storytelling. Meanwhile there's never been a single documented case of actual "Fan Baiting". It's a boogeyman.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 20, 2023 13:58:12 GMT
Seinfeld's characters (except Kramer) were as "selfish" and "vile" as everyone accused Jen of being in She-Hulk but no one cared because the acting and chemistry they had blinded people to this (until the Finale outright told us they were bad people) and the writing was never that smart. She-Hulk got praised by Dan Slott himself as super faithful to the comics and surpasses most everything on Network TV right now. I am sorry, but comparing She-Hulk in a serious way to that of Seinfeld on a writing level isn't going to make an effective argument. Not only are the two programs very different in design, but the critical and commercial appeal between the two just speaks volumes. She-Hulk's only good episode was its crossover with Daredevil, everything else felt like a mix-mash of ideas and approaches that didn't stick to landing. As for Dan Slott giving praise that shouldn't mean that a person has to like the series necessarily, Slott is also on Marvel's payroll and he has the habit of blocking many people who outright disagree with him which suggests he cannot take criticism very well and thus, for me, lessens his credibility. "Mish-mash of ideas and approaches" is how Seinfeld did things. It was just about random stuff that happened to Jerry and his friends. All the complaints about She-Hulk can be tossed at Seinfeld as well, except the CGI stuff. "Critical and Commercial" appeal doesn't mean much either, because you're basically saying "It's easier to take a white male comedian seriously than a superhero female one".
Lots of professionals on Twitter block others and have disagreements, it's the nature of Twitter.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jan 21, 2023 1:10:41 GMT
But most are not speaking generally, when such a thing occurs, they highlight the content specifically, not of all storytelling. "Born Sexy Yesterday" was an admitted creation from a media observer in the video you shared in another topic of conversation. "Fan Baiting" is purely speculative, while the other is an emotional reaction to a story and character. They are speaking generally, they claim to hate it in any and all forms. Despite it happening in things they did enjoy or at least never complained about.
It's not a new creation, he gave several examples of how it's happened throughout storytelling. Meanwhile there's never been a single documented case of actual "Fan Baiting". It's a boogeyman.
I very rarely see comments made by fabs who say any adaptation of previously crafted work needs to be 100% like the original creation these days. Most people appear to be accepting of change as along the spirit of the original work is retained and whatever alterations are made feel appropriate - be it that the original work is either dated, or the new version is trying to appeal to a specific audience. Most live-action attempts at Tarzan take liberties with the character and the backstory Edgar Rice Burroughs created because they are designed for commercial appeal. Tarzan of the Apes is a pretty violent and occasionally disturbing story that to be done right on film might require a hard R rating. It contains animal abuse, child abuse, very outdated historical knowledge, but the real kicker is that its titular character goes through a period where he is a racist and hunts down island natives. That wouldn't appeal to a wide marketplace, so they do away with some things and adjust for others. In Disney's Tarzan, Kerchak is a stern and prideful leader and a reluctant father to Tarzan after losing his own child to Sabor. In the novel, he is a violent brute who is responsible for his child's death and a horrible mate for Kala. No way would Disney portray Kerchak the same way as the novel, so they had to adjust him for their version, and it worked in that film's favor, and Lance Henriksen's vocal performance is fantastic. John Milius' Conan the Barbarian is not a very good translation of Robert E. Howard's character, but it is great cinema still. When I see people converse about race or gender swap, the argument made by those in opposition (often are they people of color and women) is that by doing so it undermines the source material's storytelling and feels like an attempt to score diversity points instead of giving a person of color an original character that the performer can really make their own, or that the gender swap is always going to be in the shadow of their original creation. It is an observation made by a person who coins a term, this they admit to. It isn't universally accepted as fact, and it seems you have to have specific ideological views to agree with it. Fan baiting is speculative, reasons for thinking so are presented in the videos as shared.
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