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Post by Sarge on Feb 1, 2023 0:20:24 GMT
Abrahamic religions are polytheistic, they believed more than one god existed, but worshipped Yahweh only. Polytheism doesn't require worship of more than one god, only the belief that more than one god exists. Read your Old Testament. It's in plain sight, in the ten commandments and other places. Christianity has the Trinity which requires philosophical gymnastics to shoehorn into monotheism. They acknowledge the Existence Of Only One True God, Who Alone Is Worthy of worship. This God Created absolutely everything in the universe, & Sustains it, hence the reason He Alone Is Worthy of worship. The Trinity acknowledges the Greatness & Unlimited Power Of Almighty God, as Only HE Can Be More than One Person, all the while Being One True God. They acknowledged more than one god, but only worshipped one. Why are you trying to argue, lol, I can quote Bible verses if needed. The first two commandments are not to worship other gods.
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Post by clusium on Feb 1, 2023 0:30:28 GMT
They acknowledge the Existence Of Only One True God, Who Alone Is Worthy of worship. This God Created absolutely everything in the universe, & Sustains it, hence the reason He Alone Is Worthy of worship. The Trinity acknowledges the Greatness & Unlimited Power Of Almighty God, as Only HE Can Be More than One Person, all the while Being One True God. They acknowledged more than one god, but only worshipped one. Why are you trying to argue, lol, I can quote Bible verses if needed. The first two commandments are not to worship other gods. That's right. Worship Only One God. Because all other deities are false ones. The One Who Created the universe Is the One True God.
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Post by Sarge on Feb 1, 2023 0:55:06 GMT
They acknowledged more than one god, but only worshipped one. Why are you trying to argue, lol, I can quote Bible verses if needed. The first two commandments are not to worship other gods. That's right. Worship Only One God. Because all other deities are false ones. The One Who Created the universe Is the One True God. You are moving the goal post, boring.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 1, 2023 4:27:56 GMT
They acknowledged more than one god, but only worshipped one. Why are you trying to argue, lol, I can quote Bible verses if needed. The first two commandments are not to worship other gods. That's right. Worship Only One God. Because all other deities are false ones. The One Who Created the universe Is the One True God. As time went by, that did become the prevailing belief, but Yahweh is a sky god just like the others in the neighboring temples. Kinda like the Norse Odin is the Germanic Woden. Not all the beliefs from different Germanic tribes were like, but they were enough alike that Odin was recognized as Woden. Most, if not those stories in Judges of massive battles with Canaanites with the ark blazing before the great army never happened beyond minor tribal warfare, per the archeological record. There’s few grave skeletal remains with battle wounds to be found, nor any evidence of fires and ruins caused by war, nor any epigraphic record beyond the Bible. As far as archaeologists can tell, the Levant coastal and hill tribes coexisted. They’re cultures coming closer together as they intermarried and formed treaties or covenants. Elyon and Yahweh merge and the stories were written down or rewritten later to make Judah/Israel into something grander than it was to compete with their rich trading partners with long histories. There are echos of the original stories in Bible that give this away. In Judaic esoteric belief, Yahweh is but one aspect of the Almighty. It is unknown to humankind because there is no way for our minds to understand It. So Yahweh is a necessary conceit.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Feb 1, 2023 10:00:38 GMT
That's right. Worship Only One God. Because all other deities are false ones. The One Who Created the universe Is the One True God. As time went by, that did become the prevailing belief, but Yahweh is a sky god just like the others in the neighboring temples. Kinda like the Norse Odin is the Germanic Woden. Not all the beliefs from different Germanic tribes were like, but they were enough alike that Odin was recognized as Woden. Most, if not those stories in Judges of massive battles with Canaanites with the ark blazing before the great army never happened beyond minor tribal warfare, per the archeological record. There’s few grave skeletal remains with battle wounds to be found, nor any evidence of fires and ruins caused by war, nor any epigraphic record beyond the Bible. As far as archaeologists can tell, the Levant coastal and hill tribes coexisted. They’re cultures coming closer together as they intermarried and formed treaties or covenants. Elyon and Yahweh merge and the stories were written down or rewritten later to make Judah/Israel into something grander than it was to compete with their rich trading partners with long histories. There are echos of the original stories in Bible that give this away. In Judaic esoteric belief, Yahweh is but one aspect of the Almighty. It is unknown to humankind because there is no way for our minds to understand It. So Yahweh is a necessary conceit. I assume what happened is Yahweh was initially conceived as one god amongst many. He was gradually assigned functions and attributes of these other gods until he gradually evolved into first the greatest of gods and then the sole god as the other gods became essentially irrelevant. Of course, accepting all this doesn't necessarily invalidate monotheism - it can be seen as these tribes coming to an increasing understanding of the true nature of God. I imagine if history had turned out differently and the followers of a different god prevailed against the followers of Yahweh then that god would have been assigned all the attributes and functions that were assigned to Yahweh and would become essentially identical to our understanding of the Abrahamic God. From such a perspective, the origins of Yahweh are kinda irrelevant. Yahweh is just one of the many influences of what evolved into the Abrahamic God, perhaps no more important than any of the other gods, many of which are completely forgotten.
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Post by Sarge on Feb 2, 2023 2:53:27 GMT
I assume what happened is Yahweh was initially conceived as one god amongst many. He was gradually assigned functions and attributes of these other gods until he gradually evolved into first the greatest of gods and then the sole god as the other gods became essentially irrelevant. Of course, accepting all this doesn't necessarily invalidate monotheism - it can be seen as these tribes coming to an increasing understanding of the true nature of God. I imagine if history had turned out differently and the followers of a different god prevailed against the followers of Yahweh then that god would have been assigned all the attributes and functions that were assigned to Yahweh and would become essentially identical to our understanding of the Abrahamic God. From such a perspective, the origins of Yahweh are kinda irrelevant. Yahweh is just one of the many influences of what evolved into the Abrahamic God, perhaps no more important than any of the other gods, many of which are completely forgotten. I don't think Yahweh was all that successful. Until Christianity came around, Yahweh was still one of many hundreds or thousands of minor gods around the world. It was Paul that sold a new religion, much easier and nicer than all the others ... no sacrificing children or livestock, no stoning for picking up sticks on the wrong day, all you had to do was say you are sorry to God. You don't even need to make recompense. You can steal, ask for forgiveness, and keep what you stole. That's why Christianity became so popular, it's easy. Here is an interesting video on the linguistic commonality of gods. The TLDR version is the words for god and names for sky gods have a probable root in a long extinct language that was the root for all Indo-European languages. In another discussion I said that religion being common doesn't mean it's right, it just means superstition has been around a very long time, before we spread around the world and some linguists agree.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Feb 2, 2023 9:52:51 GMT
all you had to do was say you are sorry to God. You don't even need to make recompense. You can steal, ask for forgiveness, and keep what you stole. That's why Christianity became so popular, it's easy Well, it may well have been sold to people in that way (and some of the stuff that went on in the Middle Ages with people buying prior forgiveness for future sins is nuts!), but the idea behind confession is that the person is truly sorry. And a person who is truly sorry would presumably seek to make recompense if possible and would be encouraged by their confessor to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2023 10:25:37 GMT
all you had to do was say you are sorry to God. You don't even need to make recompense. You can steal, ask for forgiveness, and keep what you stole. That's why Christianity became so popular, it's easy Well, it may well have been sold to people in that way (and some of the stuff that went on in the Middle Ages with people buying prior forgiveness for future sins is nuts!), but the idea behind confession is that the person is truly sorry. And a person who is truly sorry would presumably seek to make recompense if possible and would be encouraged by their confessor to do so. You put things far more eloquently than me... But yes, you can't wrong somebody, repent at Confession, do the prescribed prayers, and you are forgiven... Your penance will involve sincerely apologising to the person, and making amends if appropriate. You might also be given a Parish task as part of your penance here to make amends to the community... Polishing the pews, mowing the grass around the church, litter picking, etc. Confession certainly isn't a do what you like get out clause... It's a heartfelt examination of conscience, repentance, correcting your mistakes, and bringing yourself back to grace and reconciliation with the Lord, the Church, and your community.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Feb 2, 2023 17:12:52 GMT
What Sarge is describing is henotheism. The early Canaanite tribes were always in a cultural flux due the Egyptian influence on one side and the Mesopotamian one the other with differ pagan beliefs waxing and waning. Even so, one good source of civic revenue for these burgeoning Canaanite tribal cities was sponsoring a temple in honor of their local god or gods. Being similar in pagan outlook, these gods were interchangeable and as the most powerful and wealthiest tribe emerged in the 1st m. BC, that tribe got dibs the lucre temple trade and that tribe’s king was usually that god. Strict monotheism probably didn’t happen until Persian Empire came in with their highly developed, late Antiquities Zoroastrianism. As the Israelites and Judahites reconstituted themselves as one homogeneous nation and condensed and redacted their holy scriptures to what’s recognizable as the Torah today. It’s the apocalyptic literature that’s not considered literal in Jewish theology that caught the attention of the 1st c. BC Roman Empire oppressed Jews and developed into a heresy of an imminent, revolutionary messiah the Pharisees, Temple Sadducees, and Rome were trying to stamp out at the time. As far as most Buddhists are concerned, Jesus is a legitimate spiritual teacher who achieved Nirvana but chooses to remain in existence as a bodhisattva Christians know as the Holy Spirit. If he had a miraculous birth and death, that’s not necessary for his narrative to be affective, but it could’ve happened. So, there is nothing in holding Christian beliefs per se that will prevent a devoted disciple who follows the way of love of the Lord Jesus from obtaining Nirvana, that is, Union with the Godhead. I sure have missed your knowledge of comparative religion while you were gone. It's good to have you back. This stuff is interesting, and if more people knew these backstories, the world might be a better place.
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Post by Sarge on Feb 3, 2023 3:45:10 GMT
all you had to do was say you are sorry to God. You don't even need to make recompense. You can steal, ask for forgiveness, and keep what you stole. That's why Christianity became so popular, it's easy Well, it may well have been sold to people in that way (and some of the stuff that went on in the Middle Ages with people buying prior forgiveness for future sins is nuts!), but the idea behind confession is that the person is truly sorry. And a person who is truly sorry would presumably seek to make recompense if possible and would be encouraged by their confessor to do so. Everyone gives me the same line, even my wife said almost exactly the same thing, but it isn't supported by scripture nor is standard in any church to my knowledge.
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Post by The Lost One on Feb 3, 2023 12:41:08 GMT
Everyone gives me the same line, even my wife said almost exactly the same thing, but it isn't supported by scripture nor is standard in any church to my knowledge. Scripture seems pretty vague on the matter - you could argue that it doesn't necessarily support a more cynical interpretation either. My issue with the more cynical view is I don't think it really makes sense. I can understand why a hypothetical God might value genuine penance but why would he care about lip service?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2023 12:53:26 GMT
Everyone gives me the same line, even my wife said almost exactly the same thing, but it isn't supported by scripture nor is standard in any church to my knowledge. Scripture seems pretty vague on the matter - you could argue that it doesn't necessarily support a more cynical interpretation either. My issue with the more cynical view is I don't think it really makes sense. I can understand why a hypothetical God might value genuine penance but why would he care about lip service? Confession here really stems from early Irish monastic practice rather than scripture... Monks, like any people living together, would occasionally have fallings out with each other. Confession and penance helped keep the monastic community together by reconciliation. It spread, and now serves a similar role in parishes.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 3, 2023 14:38:32 GMT
As time went by, that did become the prevailing belief, but Yahweh is a sky god just like the others in the neighboring temples. Kinda like the Norse Odin is the Germanic Woden. Not all the beliefs from different Germanic tribes were like, but they were enough alike that Odin was recognized as Woden. Most, if not those stories in Judges of massive battles with Canaanites with the ark blazing before the great army never happened beyond minor tribal warfare, per the archeological record. There’s few grave skeletal remains with battle wounds to be found, nor any evidence of fires and ruins caused by war, nor any epigraphic record beyond the Bible. As far as archaeologists can tell, the Levant coastal and hill tribes coexisted. They’re cultures coming closer together as they intermarried and formed treaties or covenants. Elyon and Yahweh merge and the stories were written down or rewritten later to make Judah/Israel into something grander than it was to compete with their rich trading partners with long histories. There are echos of the original stories in Bible that give this away. In Judaic esoteric belief, Yahweh is but one aspect of the Almighty. It is unknown to humankind because there is no way for our minds to understand It. So Yahweh is a necessary conceit. I assume what happened is Yahweh was initially conceived as one god amongst many. He was gradually assigned functions and attributes of these other gods until he gradually evolved into first the greatest of gods and then the sole god as the other gods became essentially irrelevant. Of course, accepting all this doesn't necessarily invalidate monotheism - it can be seen as these tribes coming to an increasing understanding of the true nature of God. I imagine if history had turned out differently and the followers of a different god prevailed against the followers of Yahweh then that god would have been assigned all the attributes and functions that were assigned to Yahweh and would become essentially identical to our understanding of the Abrahamic God. From such a perspective, the origins of Yahweh are kinda irrelevant. Yahweh is just one of the many influences of what evolved into the Abrahamic God, perhaps no more important than any of the other gods, many of which are completely forgotten. That’s a good insight. It’s not unlike how Yahweh and Allah are similar enough to be designated as the same God now, but was probably a different sky deity being worshipped at Ka’ba by the pagan Arabian tribes, but becomes exclusive to Allah as the One True God, and under the leadership of the most successful and richest war lord, Mohammad, it gets cleaned out of the pagan elements for monotheism. In both Islam and Judaism, the centerpiece affirmations of faith are about recognizing one god only. Hear, O Israel: God is our Lord, God is one. There is no deity but God. Muhammad is the Messenger of God.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2023 14:47:23 GMT
I assume what happened is Yahweh was initially conceived as one god amongst many. He was gradually assigned functions and attributes of these other gods until he gradually evolved into first the greatest of gods and then the sole god as the other gods became essentially irrelevant. Of course, accepting all this doesn't necessarily invalidate monotheism - it can be seen as these tribes coming to an increasing understanding of the true nature of God. I imagine if history had turned out differently and the followers of a different god prevailed against the followers of Yahweh then that god would have been assigned all the attributes and functions that were assigned to Yahweh and would become essentially identical to our understanding of the Abrahamic God. From such a perspective, the origins of Yahweh are kinda irrelevant. Yahweh is just one of the many influences of what evolved into the Abrahamic God, perhaps no more important than any of the other gods, many of which are completely forgotten. That’s a good insight. It’s not unlike how Yahweh and Allah are similar enough to be designed as the same God now, but was probably a different sky deity being worshipped at Ka’ba by the pagan Arabian tribes, but becomes exclusive to Allah as the One True God, and under the leadership of the most successful and richest war lord, Mohammad, it gets cleaned out of the pagan elements for monotheism. In both Islam and Judaism, the centerpiece affirmatives of faith are about recognizing one god only. Hear, O Israel: God is our Lord, God is one. There is no deity but God. Muhammad is the Messenger of God. The Jewish god Yahweh is one of many gods. The Christian God, and the Muslim Allah are the one and only God.
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 3, 2023 14:49:17 GMT
That’s a good insight. It’s not unlike how Yahweh and Allah are similar enough to be designed as the same God now, but was probably a different sky deity being worshipped at Ka’ba by the pagan Arabian tribes, but becomes exclusive to Allah as the One True God, and under the leadership of the most successful and richest war lord, Mohammad, it gets cleaned out of the pagan elements for monotheism. In both Islam and Judaism, the centerpiece affirmatives of faith are about recognizing one god only. Hear, O Israel: God is our Lord, God is one. There is no deity but God. Muhammad is the Messenger of God. The Jewish god Yahweh is one of many gods. The Christian God, and the Muslim Allah are the one and only God. Not really, but I see what you’re doing here. And Buddhism, getting back to the topic, has No God.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2023 14:56:00 GMT
The Jewish god Yahweh is one of many gods. The Christian God, and the Muslim Allah are the one and only God. And Buddhism, getting back to the topic, has No God. Which was what I thought was fascinating in my original post... Catholics who double belong as Christian Buddhists have Christian as a noun (who they are, their God, etc), but also live with Buddhist principles (no god, but very compatible with Christ's teachings). Was Jesus influenced by Buddhism?
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Post by paulslaugh on Feb 3, 2023 15:02:11 GMT
And Buddhism, getting back to the topic, has No God. Which was what I thought was fascinating in my original post... Catholics who double belong as Christian Buddhists have Christian as a noun (who they are, their God, etc), but live with Buddhist principles (no god, but very compatible with Christ's teachings). Was Jesus influenced by Buddhism? Probably. Since Alexander, the Greeks spread their influence to Persia and India. The Levant was the crossroads between Europe and Asia into Africa, so it’s possible Jesus met Asian Buddhists traveling in his area and talked to them.
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Post by Karl Aksel on May 3, 2023 9:29:21 GMT
I was reading an interview in a Roman Catholic publication the other day with a Catholic who classifies himself as a Christian Buddhist. And several people apparently do. Christian being the noun, and Buddhist being an adjective. If Christian is the noun, then it should be Buddhist Christian. Just sayin'.
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