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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 11, 2023 4:50:25 GMT
So, you agree that the premise of the Fantastic Four has always been about a family unit of heroes? Doesn't sound like you were that committed to your coutner argument. Not a proper family of equals, a "Father knows best" one where Reed was always calling the shots and everyone else was second to that (even Ben Grimm). It became a proper family unit years down the line, though. It's an example of the initial premise being changed and therefore being outdated to the point the comics themselves realized this. But a family unit nonetheless, which was my initial talking point - they were always intended to be a superhero team that functions as a family unit.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 11, 2023 15:51:18 GMT
Not a proper family of equals, a "Father knows best" one where Reed was always calling the shots and everyone else was second to that (even Ben Grimm). It became a proper family unit years down the line, though. It's an example of the initial premise being changed and therefore being outdated to the point the comics themselves realized this. But a family unit nonetheless, which was my initial talking point - they were always intended to be a superhero team that functions as a family unit. What kind of family unit they were changed over time, because of how outdated the initial one was. That's what I'm getting at.
This happens to Spider-Man too, we keep getting writers who will try to move him past the initial outdated premise of him working as a lowly photographer to support Aunt May to newer stuff like him being a High School Teacher and May not really needing him to dote on her. Then some talentless hack will undo it all because they can't let go of that outdated premise.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 12, 2023 0:52:19 GMT
But a family unit nonetheless, which was my initial talking point - they were always intended to be a superhero team that functions as a family unit. What kind of family unit they were changed over time, because of how outdated the initial one was. That's what I'm getting at.
This happens to Spider-Man too, we keep getting writers who will try to move him past the initial outdated premise of him working as a lowly photographer to support Aunt May to newer stuff like him being a High School Teacher and May not really needing him to dote on her. Then some talentless hack will undo it all because they can't let go of that outdated premise.
But you admit that them being a family unit was in place right from the start, which was my initial argument. Therefore, I was right the whole time.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 12, 2023 3:27:35 GMT
What kind of family unit they were changed over time, because of how outdated the initial one was. That's what I'm getting at.
This happens to Spider-Man too, we keep getting writers who will try to move him past the initial outdated premise of him working as a lowly photographer to support Aunt May to newer stuff like him being a High School Teacher and May not really needing him to dote on her. Then some talentless hack will undo it all because they can't let go of that outdated premise.
But you admit that them being a family unit was in place right from the start, which was my initial argument. Therefore, I was right the whole time. They were an outdated "Father Knows Best" unit at the start, and didn't become a proper equal family unit till later.
This is the outdated stuff I say should rightfully be updated in adaptation
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 12, 2023 8:30:45 GMT
But you admit that them being a family unit was in place right from the start, which was my initial argument. Therefore, I was right the whole time. They were an outdated "Father Knows Best" unit at the start, and didn't become a proper equal family unit till later.
This is the outdated stuff I say should rightfully be updated in adaptation
And your argument for it having been so is very shy of detail and wobbly, in other words not effective.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 12, 2023 20:12:35 GMT
They were an outdated "Father Knows Best" unit at the start, and didn't become a proper equal family unit till later.
This is the outdated stuff I say should rightfully be updated in adaptation
And your argument for it having been so is very shy of detail and wobbly, in other words not effective. So you'd be fine with Reed saying stuff like "Not foolish, just female" (paraphrasing) and being a "Father knows best" type who disregards the wishes of the rest of the team because he must always be the only mind who matters?
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 12, 2023 23:13:08 GMT
And your argument for it having been so is very shy of detail and wobbly, in other words not effective. So you'd be fine with Reed saying stuff like "Not foolish, just female" (paraphrasing) and being a "Father knows best" type who disregards the wishes of the rest of the team because he must always be the only mind who matters? An adorable attempt at fallacy, but no. My argument was that they were conceived as a superhero team that functioned as a family unit, you said that came later and are now admitted that was the case but are using variations of the idea to try and save face. (It didn't work well for you those other times, I wouldn't pursue it further)
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 13, 2023 4:00:52 GMT
So you'd be fine with Reed saying stuff like "Not foolish, just female" (paraphrasing) and being a "Father knows best" type who disregards the wishes of the rest of the team because he must always be the only mind who matters? An adorable attempt at fallacy, but no. My argument was that they were conceived as a superhero team that functioned as a family unit, you said that came later and are now admitted that was the case but are using variations of the idea to try and save face. (It didn't work well for you those other times, I wouldn't pursue it further) They were initially a "Father Knows Best" family unit, with Reeds own failings ignored and the other 3 seen as his lessers. It evolved eventually to the "Equal Family Unit" but it wasn't that way to start with.
This idea that every comic from back then had flawless premises that are in no way outdated and can't be corrected in adaptation is an inherently flawed mindset. There's nothing wrong with the MCU correcting mistakes. And yes, that includes things like too much homogeneous characters.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 13, 2023 7:04:33 GMT
An adorable attempt at fallacy, but no. My argument was that they were conceived as a superhero team that functioned as a family unit, you said that came later and are now admitted that was the case but are using variations of the idea to try and save face. (It didn't work well for you those other times, I wouldn't pursue it further) They were initially a "Father Knows Best" family unit, with Reeds own failings ignored and the other 3 seen as his lessers. It evolved eventually to the "Equal Family Unit" but it wasn't that way to start with.
This idea that every comic from back then had flawless premises that are in no way outdated and can't be corrected in adaptation is an inherently flawed mindset. There's nothing wrong with the MCU correcting mistakes. And yes, that includes things like too much homogeneous characters.
But you said it wasn't about a family unit originally, now you are admitting that it was but as a dated variation of it. You are trying to save face, and not doing a very good job I would add.
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 13, 2023 10:08:36 GMT
At this point, I no longer care. I wish them all well.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 13, 2023 23:10:47 GMT
They were initially a "Father Knows Best" family unit, with Reeds own failings ignored and the other 3 seen as his lessers. It evolved eventually to the "Equal Family Unit" but it wasn't that way to start with.
This idea that every comic from back then had flawless premises that are in no way outdated and can't be corrected in adaptation is an inherently flawed mindset. There's nothing wrong with the MCU correcting mistakes. And yes, that includes things like too much homogeneous characters.
But you said it wasn't about a family unit originally, now you are admitting that it was but as a dated variation of it. You are trying to save face, and not doing a very good job I would add. They weren't the family unit you were claiming they were, they were a different outdated kind. The book itself rectified this eventually but it doesn't change that the original premise was outdated and changed.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 14, 2023 0:23:07 GMT
But you said it wasn't about a family unit originally, now you are admitting that it was but as a dated variation of it. You are trying to save face, and not doing a very good job I would add. They weren't the family unit you were claiming they were, they were a different outdated kind. The book itself rectified this eventually but it doesn't change that the original premise was outdated and changed. Blah, blah, blah. Your attempt to save face has backfired miserably and you are not impressing anyone.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 14, 2023 0:49:50 GMT
They weren't the family unit you were claiming they were, they were a different outdated kind. The book itself rectified this eventually but it doesn't change that the original premise was outdated and changed. Blah, blah, blah. Your attempt to save face has backfired miserably and you are not impressing anyone. See, you just can't accept that older comics had flawed premises and that there's nothing wrong in updating outdated material.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 14, 2023 3:48:22 GMT
Blah, blah, blah. Your attempt to save face has backfired miserably and you are not impressing anyone. See, you just can't accept that older comics had flawed premises and that there's nothing wrong in updating outdated material. I did say there were outdated sequences and dialog in the material - when you have a title run for more than 60 years you are bound to have moments which are products of their time - I was arguing that the Fantastic Four, on its most basic, surface level, had always been a superhero group that made up a family unit.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 14, 2023 12:21:40 GMT
See, you just can't accept that older comics had flawed premises and that there's nothing wrong in updating outdated material. I did say there were outdated sequences and dialog in the material - when you have a title run for more than 60 years you are bound to have moments which are products of their time - I was arguing that the Fantastic Four, on its most basic, surface level, had always been a superhero group that made up a family unit. And how that family unit exactly was defined changed over time. Directly adapting the initial premise would be a mistake, just like X-Men adaptations would be wrong to ignore the more problematic aspects of the initial series premise because even the comics themselves realized these problems.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 14, 2023 20:42:47 GMT
I did say there were outdated sequences and dialog in the material - when you have a title run for more than 60 years you are bound to have moments which are products of their time - I was arguing that the Fantastic Four, on its most basic, surface level, had always been a superhero group that made up a family unit. And how that family unit exactly was defined changed over time. Directly adapting the initial premise would be a mistake, just like X-Men adaptations would be wrong to ignore the more problematic aspects of the initial series premise because even the comics themselves realized these problems. *Yawn* How long do you plan of repeating yourself? A friendly word of advice you can restate as much as you wish but it won't change that you changed your wording to save face - you were better off going back and editing your initial responses.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 14, 2023 22:17:35 GMT
And how that family unit exactly was defined changed over time. Directly adapting the initial premise would be a mistake, just like X-Men adaptations would be wrong to ignore the more problematic aspects of the initial series premise because even the comics themselves realized these problems. *Yawn* How long do you plan of repeating yourself? A friendly word of advice you can restate as much as you wish but it won't change that you changed your wording to save face - you were better off going back and editing your initial responses. Are you going to admit that the initial 1960s Marvel comics evolved their premises over time and this was because the initial premises were outdated and/or problematic? Because it's clear to see that Spider-man is not 100% where he was at the start, nor are the FF or X-Men.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 15, 2023 0:11:34 GMT
*Yawn* How long do you plan of repeating yourself? A friendly word of advice you can restate as much as you wish but it won't change that you changed your wording to save face - you were better off going back and editing your initial responses. Are you going to admit that the initial 1960s Marvel comics evolved their premises over time and this was because the initial premises were outdated and/or problematic? Because it's clear to see that Spider-man is not 100% where he was at the start, nor are the FF or X-Men. No, because my idea of their premises were/are are clearly different than your own.
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Post by formersamhmd on Mar 15, 2023 3:00:11 GMT
Are you going to admit that the initial 1960s Marvel comics evolved their premises over time and this was because the initial premises were outdated and/or problematic? Because it's clear to see that Spider-man is not 100% where he was at the start, nor are the FF or X-Men. No, because my idea of their premises were/are are clearly different than your own. Possible. For Spider-Man, the premise is that he must always be a teenager who can't hold a proper job and Aunt May is always portrayed as so pathetic she'd die without him.
That's a premise we can update.
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Mar 15, 2023 3:54:47 GMT
No, because my idea of their premises were/are are clearly different than your own. Possible. For Spider-Man, the premise is that he must always be a teenager who can't hold a proper job and Aunt May is always portrayed as so pathetic she'd die without him.
That's a premise we can update.
Possible? It is exactly the case, because we have been going back and forth for this long. We were talking about the Fantastic Four and earlier the X-Men, not Spider-Man.
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