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Post by Jayman on Jun 6, 2017 21:58:40 GMT
Yeah but that's the problem. They didn't account for any downs. They just kept bleeding out money like a waterfall with the contracts and all that so when it did go down even just a little bit it was impossible to make money. I learned a lot from listening to JJ dillon talk about that. But I'm sure others will say something different that were there. But we all saw the end result and it wasn't good. i'm one for 'ridin' the wave' baby ups and downs. anywho. what if when jeff jarrett came back circa '97 or so and he made his (worked) shoot towards WWF and Vince, Bret, HBK, Stone Cold, etc - if they would have ran with him with the strap? we may have gotten some epicness like this: Link: Double J Owns the WorldWho's needs Austin when we could have had 'JJ' I don't think it would've mattered what they did or how hot they made it. It just can't be sustained at the level that they were spending. They banked everything on the fact that the promotion would be on fire till the end of time. But wrestling never has and never will work that way. IT has it's ups and downs. Not to mention when you hotshot like they did for so long, it may be hot and great for awhile, but when it bottoms out it really bottoms out. This is why we had squash matches and not main event cards on tv when I was growing up. It would've put them all out of business within a couple of years.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 22:02:12 GMT
Yeah but they spent so much money that even if it went down just a little, not only could they not still make a profit, but they could never recover the losses but that's where Time Warner/Aol/Turner or whatever the conglomerate was recognized them being businessman themselves that 'business' is about risks and rewards............ they were the 'ratings' winner at the time - so why not with some frugal business decisions couldn't they have taken a hit and maybe even taken a step back only to mold and build their product for future success. i liken to a football team like the Dallas Cowboys. they're iconic. they typically suck. but sometimes they're iconic. ebb and flows. business. ups and downs. jerry jones (owner) has stuck with them thick and thin. he 'gets' it.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jun 6, 2017 22:04:13 GMT
Ratings don't mean anything if they're still losing money, which WCW was. Nitro may have had high ratings, but they weren't enough to offset the expense. Remember, WCW was wasting money on things like a live Kiss concert, bringing James Brown with no advertising, redesigned sets, merchandise, etc. but what about the thought process of 'ebb and flow'?? i mean - a company is successful. there's ups and and downs. there's a track record of success there gotta spend money to make money.......... Yes, but there should always be more money coming in than going out. WCW had far more going out than was coming in. AOL/Time Warner wanted an excuse to get rid of WCW. They found it. Ted was really the only fan they had. So when he lost power, that was it. There was nothing to protect it. There's a particular reason wrestling has been such an ebb and flow business. They tend to run a successful idea or angle and run it into the ground and water it down until the fans are turned off and leave. Then a new hot angle brings some of them back. One good thing I can say about WWE is that at least they're trying to correct that by looking towards Reigns to be the next guy to take over from Cena.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 22:07:57 GMT
i'm one for 'ridin' the wave' baby ups and downs. anywho. what if when jeff jarrett came back circa '97 or so and he made his (worked) shoot towards WWF and Vince, Bret, HBK, Stone Cold, etc - if they would have ran with him with the strap? we may have gotten some epicness like this: Link: Double J Owns the WorldWho's needs Austin when we could have had 'JJ' I don't think it would've mattered what they did or how hot they made it. It just can't be sustained at the level that they were spending. They banked everything on the fact that the promotion would be on fire till the end of time. But wrestling never has and never will work that way. IT has it's ups and downs. Not to mention when you hotshot like they did for so long, it may be hot and great for awhile, but when it bottoms out it really bottoms out. This is why we had squash matches and not main event cards on tv when I was growing up. It would've put them all out of business within a couple of years. interesting. i just don't get the 'why nots'. why couldn't WCW have buried Vince and WWF - they sure had the money and star power. was it just not the backing of the network and merger? seemed like they had deep pockets. cash to throw around at will if one is looking at 'big picture' i mean - look at today's product. it stinks. they could have monopolized the business like Vince eventually did. i mean - let's call a spade a spade - that's pretty much what Vince did - i just wonder why the businessman from AOL/Warner/Turner/Bischoff (i.e all those involved in discussions and buyouts) didn't view this as an opportunity.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jun 6, 2017 22:08:41 GMT
Yeah but they spent so much money that even if it went down just a little, not only could they not still make a profit, but they could never recover the losses but that's where Time Warner/Aol/Turner or whatever the conglomerate was recognized them being businessman themselves that 'business' is about risks and rewards............ they were the 'ratings' winner at the time - so why not with some frugal business decisions couldn't they have taken a hit and maybe even taken a step back only to mold and build their product for future success. i liken to a football team like the Dallas Cowboys. they're iconic. they typically suck. but sometimes they're iconic. ebb and flows. business. ups and downs. jerry jones (owner) has stuck with them thick and thin. he 'gets' it. I believe the Cowboys still make money. WCW wasn't. More importantly, they were losing money. That's the big difference. The Cowboys may suck, but they're still profitable.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jun 6, 2017 22:11:31 GMT
I don't think it would've mattered what they did or how hot they made it. It just can't be sustained at the level that they were spending. They banked everything on the fact that the promotion would be on fire till the end of time. But wrestling never has and never will work that way. IT has it's ups and downs. Not to mention when you hotshot like they did for so long, it may be hot and great for awhile, but when it bottoms out it really bottoms out. This is why we had squash matches and not main event cards on tv when I was growing up. It would've put them all out of business within a couple of years. interesting. i just don't get the 'why nots'. why couldn't WCW have buried Vince and WWF - they sure had the money and star power. was it just not the backing of the network and merger? seemed like they had deep pockets. cash to throw around at will if one is looking at 'big picture' i mean - look at today's product. it stinks. they could have monopolized the business like Vince eventually did. i mean - let's call a spade a spade - that's pretty much what Vince did - i just wonder why the businessman from AOL/Warner/Turner/Bischoff (i.e all those involved in discussions and buyouts) didn't view this as an opportunity.Wrestling was beneath them. Pure and simple. They thumbed their noses at it. Heck, not too long ago there was some car manufacturer who refused to air commercials during Monday Night Raw because the company doesn't care for wrestling. They turned away potential money just because of the old fashioned stigma that surrounds wrestling and its fans.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 22:17:26 GMT
interesting. i just don't get the 'why nots'. why couldn't WCW have buried Vince and WWF - they sure had the money and star power. was it just not the backing of the network and merger? seemed like they had deep pockets. cash to throw around at will if one is looking at 'big picture' i mean - look at today's product. it stinks. they could have monopolized the business like Vince eventually did. i mean - let's call a spade a spade - that's pretty much what Vince did - i just wonder why the businessman from AOL/Warner/Turner/Bischoff (i.e all those involved in discussions and buyouts) didn't view this as an opportunity.Wrestling was beneath them. Pure and simple. They thumbed their noses at it. Heck, not too long ago there was some car manufacturer who refused to air commercials during Monday Night Raw because the company doesn't care for wrestling. They turned away potential money just because of the old fashioned stigma that surrounds wrestling and its fans. that is what i find fascinating and what Nash stated in one of his most recent shoots. they just wanted to be done with it. they didn't want to show up at the 'Cable Ace Awards' and admit that 'sports entertainment' was their #1 rated show...... if you're a businessman out there and have the 'pockets' - sports entertainment is an industry where there's pretty much a monopoly. sure TNA failed. i've read some stories on 'Dixie' and her family and 'Panda Energy' or whatever it's called and it's pretty much a write off - im ignorant to all of this as i haven't followed it and just watch the product from afar for years - but i find it baffling how everyone just wanted to wipe their hands clean of WCW - and since there's been no real competition to a product that with all due respect - stinks - and has stunk for years.
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Post by Jayman on Jun 6, 2017 22:21:58 GMT
You're not wrong when you state the facts about successful business models and risks and rewards. I just think that doesn't apply here. The company could never get hot enough for a long enough period of time to sustain the money that was going out. Jerry Jarrett was the perfect example. He kept his business going till 1997 when everybody else had death knocking on their door by the mid 80's. Because he only spent what he could afford to spend and did it on a shoestring budget and the incentive was on the guys to bring the fans to the gate and if they didn't, they didn't make money. That was the model that worked for decades until all this corporate stuff and the guaranteed contracts and paying guys to stay home, etc.. He had it structured so when business was down, he still made money just not as much.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jun 6, 2017 22:24:57 GMT
Yep. Nash nailed it. Wrestling has always been looked down upon. No matter how successful it is or how profitable, it's always looked on as a dirty secret. I think USA might be an exception, especially after decades of business with the WWE, for Turner (the company, not the man), it was the red headed step child.
Also, keep in mind, WCW wasn't sports entertainment. It was looked at as wrasslin'. A somewhat even lower form, if you can believe that. Apparently, southerners don't have disposable income.
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Post by Jayman on Jun 6, 2017 22:29:51 GMT
This may be off topic but I never understood the whole disdain for so called "rasslin'". The southern style was considered that and that had more hot angles, more hot feuds, more violence, and faster paced wrestling. While the WWF was always the super slow style and they only shot a few angles a year. I guess they just consider the fans to be rednecks and don't like when guys talk with a southern accent. But you tell me which is what you would rather watch. rasslin' or snoooooooore zzzzzz wwf style of wrestling at that point in time.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 22:36:55 GMT
You're not wrong when you state the facts about successful business models and risks and rewards. I just think that doesn't apply here. The company could never get hot enough for a long enough period of time to sustain the money that was going out. Jerry Jarrett was the perfect example. He kept his business going till 1997 when everybody else had death knocking on their door by the mid 80's. Because he only spent what he could afford to spend and did it on a shoestring budget and the incentive was on the guys to bring the fans to the gate and if they didn't, they didn't make money. That was the model that worked for decades until all this corporate stuff and the guaranteed contracts and paying guys to stay home, etc.. He had it structured so when business was down, he still made money just not as much. but see here's the thing when we're talking about jerry jarrett (and believe me - it's before my time and i all i have to go off is youtube clips - but i love that era and would take it any day of week over today's stuff). did jerry jarrett ever have the fortune on being on a cable giant like TNT/TBS with Turner backing him and then the AOL/Time Warner people coming in? i give the utmost respect to those old school territories just like i ECW and Heyman in Philly - i don't know how they managed to survive for so long. but in WCW's case? it's mind boggling to me. it's like they just 'gave up' which lead to Vince buying it for peanuts. it's really fascinating to me - people can rip on wrestling all they want - it's always been the 'backstory' that has intrigued me
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Post by PreachCaleb on Jun 6, 2017 22:39:21 GMT
This may be off topic but I never understood the whole disdain for so called "rasslin'". The southern style was considered that and that had more hot angles, more hot feuds, more violence, and faster paced wrestling. While the WWF was always the super slow style and they only shot a few angles a year. I guess they just consider the fans to be rednecks and don't like when guys talk with a southern accent. But you tell me which is what you would rather watch. rasslin' or snoooooooore zzzzzz wwf style of wrestling at that point in time. Yep. That's pretty much it. As I said, business seem to think southerns are dimwitted yokels with no money. Cornette has gone on about how a lot of the WWE guys didn't like him and JR simply for the way they talked. He feels it probably eats at Vince's ego that the man fans consider the greatest commentator in history had an accent. It's really not about what I'd rather watch. It's only about what businesses think I should be watching. It's stupid beyond belief, but that's what it is. That's why businesses thumb their noses at it. If it's Sports Entertainment, we're dummies for thinking it's "still real." If it's wrasslin', we're blood thirsty yokels. There is no winning. Foley said it best: Wrestling will never be respected.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 22:41:21 GMT
This may be off topic but I never understood the whole disdain for so called "rasslin'". The southern style was considered that and that had more hot angles, more hot feuds, more violence, and faster paced wrestling. While the WWF was always the super slow style and they only shot a few angles a year. I guess they just consider the fans to be rednecks and don't like when guys talk with a southern accent. But you tell me which is what you would rather watch. rasslin' or snoooooooore zzzzzz wwf style of wrestling at that point in time. rasslin. any day of the week. youtube those old territories. old school nwa/wcw. doesn't mean i didn't enjoy WWF(e)s product. it's like apples and oranges. can probably state the last time i truly enjoyed WWE was Smackdown 2003/4 with Angle, Cena, Hogan, Lesnar, Show, Heyman, McMahon, Gowan, Benoit, Guerrero. Terrific TV. And I've been the biggest proponent of Benoit and Guerrero being 'midcard' but the really did a fantastic job. i tune in nowadays to see what's happening. or if a former star returns like Goldberg. other than that - the remote is right on my trigger finger.
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Post by Jayman on Jun 6, 2017 23:04:55 GMT
You're not wrong when you state the facts about successful business models and risks and rewards. I just think that doesn't apply here. The company could never get hot enough for a long enough period of time to sustain the money that was going out. Jerry Jarrett was the perfect example. He kept his business going till 1997 when everybody else had death knocking on their door by the mid 80's. Because he only spent what he could afford to spend and did it on a shoestring budget and the incentive was on the guys to bring the fans to the gate and if they didn't, they didn't make money. That was the model that worked for decades until all this corporate stuff and the guaranteed contracts and paying guys to stay home, etc.. He had it structured so when business was down, he still made money just not as much. but see here's the thing when we're talking about jerry jarrett (and believe me - it's before my time and i all i have to go off is youtube clips - but i love that era and would take it any day of week over today's stuff). did jerry jarrett ever have the fortune on being on a cable giant like TNT/TBS with Turner backing him and then the AOL/Time Warner people coming in? i give the utmost respect to those old school territories just like i ECW and Heyman in Philly - i don't know how they managed to survive for so long. but in WCW's case? it's mind boggling to me. it's like they just 'gave up' which lead to Vince buying it for peanuts. it's really fascinating to me - people can rip on wrestling all they want - it's always been the 'backstory' that has intrigued me Jerry had a lot of money but never needed anybody big backing him. Just a good business man at the time. Jim Crockett overspent as well and that was his downfall. But the Crocketts had a business model that worked for over 50 years and he screwed it up by overspending and trying to expand. That was the beginning of this mess that started and then they went full blown corporate and that killed it.
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Post by Jayman on Jun 6, 2017 23:16:25 GMT
This may be off topic but I never understood the whole disdain for so called "rasslin'". The southern style was considered that and that had more hot angles, more hot feuds, more violence, and faster paced wrestling. While the WWF was always the super slow style and they only shot a few angles a year. I guess they just consider the fans to be rednecks and don't like when guys talk with a southern accent. But you tell me which is what you would rather watch. rasslin' or snoooooooore zzzzzz wwf style of wrestling at that point in time. rasslin. any day of the week. youtube those old territories. old school nwa/wcw. doesn't mean i didn't enjoy WWF(e)s product. it's like apples and oranges. can probably state the last time i truly enjoyed WWE was Smackdown 2003/4 with Angle, Cena, Hogan, Lesnar, Show, Heyman, McMahon, Gowan, Benoit, Guerrero. Terrific TV. And I've been the biggest proponent of Benoit and Guerrero being 'midcard' but the really did a fantastic job. i tune in nowadays to see what's happening. or if a former star returns like Goldberg. other than that - the remote is right on my trigger finger. I'm a new yorker so I had no choice but to watch the wwf product in that era. Sure I got a few other territories on cable, but the wwf was the only one I could go to live shows to see. The east coast fans had to like it because that's all they got. So I think that's pretty egotistical of Vince or anybody else to put down southern style of wrestling like the northern brand was better. The fans in the northeast got what they got. They didn't have the choice to choose southern rasslin' over their brand of wrestling because the southern wrestling didn't come to their town. And I bet if the fans did have the choice, the wwf would've really had to kick it up several notches to compete and have guys work twice as hard on the live shows and shoot a few more angles than they did. But I'm digressing and going back over 30 years, but it just blows my mind how people view the term "rasslin"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 23:22:12 GMT
but see here's the thing when we're talking about jerry jarrett (and believe me - it's before my time and i all i have to go off is youtube clips - but i love that era and would take it any day of week over today's stuff). did jerry jarrett ever have the fortune on being on a cable giant like TNT/TBS with Turner backing him and then the AOL/Time Warner people coming in? i give the utmost respect to those old school territories just like i ECW and Heyman in Philly - i don't know how they managed to survive for so long. but in WCW's case? it's mind boggling to me. it's like they just 'gave up' which lead to Vince buying it for peanuts. it's really fascinating to me - people can rip on wrestling all they want - it's always been the 'backstory' that has intrigued me Jerry had a lot of money but never needed anybody big backing him. Just a good business man at the time. Jim Crockett overspent as well and that was his downfall. But the Crocketts had a business model that worked for over 50 years and he screwed it up by overspending and trying to expand. That was the beginning of this mess that started and then they went full blown corporate and that killed it. I get he may have had a lot of money. But honestly - Crockett and & Co were on TBS and TV - did Jarrett ever have a deal other than some fly by night tv show where he could by some cable time at like 3am on a Sunday morning? Or was he pretty much delegated to local TV down South? I don't know - maybe he did. I'm ignorant to this. Just know NWA/WCW was a player with their TBS deal even though they always played second fiddle to Vince. anyway. you're an old school fan and could probably teach me a lot. ever see this? i find this one of the most fascinating clips i've ever seen. i love those old school nwa/wcw clips. ever think you'd see Vince McMahon in front of that World Championship Wrestling studio? i feel like im in the Twilight Zone Watching this: Link: Vince In WCW/NWA Studiogood stuff
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Post by Jayman on Jun 7, 2017 0:08:47 GMT
Jarrett had no big cable company but they were on the local NBC affiliate WMC tv 5. The ratings were through the roof. I forget what percentage of the city was watching that program on Saturday mornings but it would blow your mind. Ratings were also huge in their other markets in Kentucky, Mississippi, Arkansas, and Indiana. So it was like turning on NBC on a saturday morning and watching wrestling. He tried looking into other markets in Ohio and Michigan after the Sheik killed his own territory. But it didn't pan out and Georgia championship wrestling took over those markets. I'm not sure how much he wanted to expand though. The main thing was he had a huge percentage of fans that watched his program on Saturday mornings and those were the fans that were coming to the mid south coliseum on Monday nights and that's where the money was. Same with Louisville and Evansville.
The real first expansion was really with Georgia Championship wrestling on TBS. They started running Ohio, Michigan, West Virginia, and eventually Pa, and Baltimore, and parts of Tennessee. Some NWA members weren't happy about it, but they didn't really run in anybody else's market except towards the end in Vince's area.
I don't have access to video right now but I assume the clip you posted is what is now known as Black Saturday which was july of 1984. It was a dark day. I was a kid at the time and I tuned in to see Georgia Championship wrestling like I did every Saturday night and there I see Freddie Miller announcing Vince Macmahon. I thought I was going to throw up. What happened was the Briscos who own a piece of the territory along with other part owners sold their shares to Vince. So the WWF got the TBS slot. So now the WWF owned Georgia Championship wrestling. Everybody in the territory left in protest except Freddie Miller and a few other guys and the Briscos had a guaranteed job with the WWF. (there also began the feud with Ted Turner when they didn't give him the kind of show he wanted). 10's of thousands of fans called TBS to complain. The WWF kept that slot for about 8 months or so. Luckily Ole Anderson was able to restart the Georgia territory under the name Championship wrestling from Georgia with his NWA membership in tact and aired the show on saturday mornings on tbs so the territory was alive again. The WWF and Georgia territory both ran in the Omni and both didn't do great numbers. Then by the following year I believe Vince sold the TBS slot to Crockett and Crockett also took over the Georgia territory so now Crockett had not only the night time TBS slots but the saturday morning slot leftover by Ole Anderson's championship wrestling from Georgia. That was the beginning of the Crockett expansion in a major level.
So what you're seeing is basically Georgia Championship wrestling who named their program "world championship wrestling" a couple of years before to give it more of a national feel to it. Then after Turner bought out Crockett they used the name World Championship wrestling also.
What I found hilarious was when the WWF tried to run in Jarretts market and drew like 600 people at the Louisville Gardens LOL the WWF bombed big time in parts of the south
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