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Post by clusium on Mar 19, 2023 11:58:24 GMT
Trivial for everyone here: The word 'Catholic' actually means 'Universal.'
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Post by paulslaugh on Mar 19, 2023 12:09:09 GMT
Trivial for everyone here: The word 'Catholic' actually means 'Universal.' This is based on the theology all human souls will be saved at the end of time.
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Post by gadreel on Mar 19, 2023 23:32:16 GMT
Trivial for everyone here: The word 'Catholic' actually means 'Universal.' This is based on the theology all human souls will be saved at the end of time. Which kind of makes sense, even on an exoteric level, why would a creator create intelligent life, then doom some of them to an eternity of punishment?
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Post by rizdek on Mar 21, 2023 10:05:58 GMT
From one of the many referenced sites:
"Hell exists as a final possibility, but several of the Fathers have none the less believed that in the end all will be reconciled to God. It is heretical to say that all must be saved, for this is to deny free will"
I don't see how reconciliation to God denies someone their free will unless they imagine that everyone in hell got there by consciously choosing NOT to want to be in God's presence and are not there just due to their sinful nature that was never redeemed by Jesus' saving grace. I often read from Christians about how we are all sinners...born in sin...cannot help but sin and therefore we need the saving grace of God. Furthermore, we can never be 'good enough' on our own, no matter how hard we may try. So that doesn't sound like someone willfully wanting to sin, but sinning because it's part of our nature and they are lost because they were never redeemed. It would seem odd that those people would not eventually be reconciled to God if he actually gave a damn. And if you fold in a conniving tempting satan who has the ability to introduce thoughts into those who are not protected by the spirit of God all can be manipulated by Satan. And none are protected by the spirit of God until they've been redeemed which can only occur by willfully dong the things that led to redemption. But BEFORE someone has been 'led' to redemption or 'chosen' redemption, they are susceptible to the 'firey darts' of Satan that Paul described. So ALL are susceptible for a time/moment in their lives and it would be in these moments when they might inadvertently, due to Satan's influence, even come to the conclusion there is go God. Per the Bible that would make them fool...but are fools really deserving of eternal damnation?
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Post by ShadowSouL: Padawan of Yoda on Mar 22, 2023 5:42:19 GMT
One argument against Christian Universalism is that if everyone is eventually reconciled to God, there is no reason to even try not to live a sinful life, in other words, there is every reason to do all sorts of madness and mayhem.
My very broad and basic answer to that is, just because you know that touching a flame won't incinerate you instantly or entirely, does that mean you will continually touch a flame?
Another argument is that if everyone is eventually reconciled to God, what's the purpose and point of evangelizing and teaching the teachings of Jesus?
Again, very broadly and basically, if other people know that you touching a flame won't incinerate you instantly or entirely, does that mean they won't tell you at all to not touch the flame. or would they even encourage you wholeheartedly to repeatedly touch the flame?
In a kind of unrelated way, it's like the same bs proposition that if we were to suddenly have mass evidence of extraterrestrial life, that would cause many people to lose their faith in God.
Why should they lose their faith in God? That should only enhance and enrich their faith in God, unless their faith in God to begin with is already on mentally and emotionally fragile ground.
Then again, there are those religious people who believe that any existing aliens that might make their presence known are really demonic forces and agents of Satan.
Oh my.
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Post by rizdek on Mar 22, 2023 10:48:21 GMT
One argument against Christian Universalism is that if everyone is eventually reconciled to God, there is no reason to even try not to live a sinful life, in other words, there is every reason to do all sorts of madness and mayhem.My very broad and basic answer to that is, just because you know that touching a flame won't incinerate you instantly or entirely, does that mean you will continually touch a flame? Another argument is that if everyone is eventually reconciled to God, what's the purpose and point of evangelizing and teaching the teachings of Jesus? Again, very broadly and basically, if other people know that you touching a flame won't incinerate you instantly or entirely, does that mean they won't tell you at all to not touch the flame. or would they even encourage you wholeheartedly to repeatedly touch the flame? In a kind of unrelated way, it's like the same bs proposition that if we were to suddenly have mass evidence of extraterrestrial life, that would cause many people to lose their faith in God. Why should they lose their faith in God? That should only enhance and enrich their faith in God, unless their faith in God to begin with is already on mentally and emotionally fragile ground. Then again, there are those religious people who believe that any existing aliens that might make their presence known are really demonic forces and agents of Satan. Oh my. The folks who reason like that epitomize the Christian who relishes others being punished and is there mainly for the refreshments...ie heaven. First, many who are universalist do NOT imagine that there is no punishment for sins. They may envision some finite punishment. Depending on the needed severity, these proponents could picture it being quite unpleasant. So the 'deterrent,' if an imagined punishment after we die is a deterrent, is that if one has been redeemed in this lifetime, they won't suffer those 10, 100 or 1000 years writhing in agony in the fires of hell...or whatever the punishment du jour is. So that would be plenty of incentive. Second, many Christians, you know the good ones, believe that living a life in communion with Christ is a much better life here on earth and would think a life separated from Christ is less fulfilled..a life of emptiness and without meaning. So THEY would see that the non-Christian is already being punished in THIS lifetime such that ultimate reconciliation is NOT untidy end to all this. Third, and I think most important, ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. And since all one need to is accept that Jesus is Lord to be 'rid' of their sins, there is little incentive NOT to sin as long as one is willing to gamble that at some time...just before they die, they pray the prayer and are redeemed and get to walk in with those who've lived a long life of sacrifice and dedication.
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