jimmyboy
Sophomore
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
@jimmyboy
Posts: 185
Likes: 70
|
Post by jimmyboy on Jan 12, 2024 0:55:56 GMT
Interesting wording, and I would agree with you, except for the fact that we are dealing with a minor in this case. Years ago, in the fifties and earlier, there would be a shotgun wedding where the parents of the girl would make the father marry the young girl. Seen it happen, even in the case of rape. In those days, it was unheard of to press charges. I think we have progressed from that. As I mentioned earlier, the parents would be involved in deciding. The parents may ask, but chances are if it's a rape, they may decide to terminate the pregnancy to mitigate any psychological or physical issues over the pregnancy. I broadened the issue.Ok, for an adult then, if the parents are unable or unwilling to care properly for a kid, then social services would take the baby away. I know sometimes that doesn't always happen, but that is a separate issue. Sometimes social services takes the baby away from the mother before she can hold the kid if there is a history of abuse. The parents still should have a choice to abort or give the baby away if they know they can't properly take care of the baby once he or she is born.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jan 12, 2024 1:15:53 GMT
Ok, for an adult then, if the parents are unable or unwilling to care properly for a kid, then social services would take the baby away. I know sometimes that doesn't always happen, but that is a separate issue. Sometimes social services takes the baby away from the mother before she can hold the kid if there is a history of abuse. The parents still should have a choice to abort or give the baby away if they know they can't properly take care of the baby once he or she is born. Just so I understand... You support the choice to give birth despite a complete inability to care for it, but only on the condition that it's taken away from its mother after it's born?
|
|
jimmyboy
Sophomore
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
@jimmyboy
Posts: 185
Likes: 70
|
Post by jimmyboy on Jan 12, 2024 1:42:57 GMT
Ok, for an adult then, if the parents are unable or unwilling to care properly for a kid, then social services would take the baby away. I know sometimes that doesn't always happen, but that is a separate issue. Sometimes social services takes the baby away from the mother before she can hold the kid if there is a history of abuse. The parents still should have a choice to abort or give the baby away if they know they can't properly take care of the baby once he or she is born. Just so I understand... You support the choice to give birth despite a complete inability to care for it, but only on the condition that it's taken away from its mother after it's born? We live in a world that is far, far from ideal. Some people should never be allowed to be parents. I think Keanu Reeves character in Parenthood said it perfectly when he mentioned that you need a license to drive or fish, but they let just anyone be a parent. Sadly, some people who should never be parents have kids sometimes do. The government sometimes doesn't intervene. That said, should the government be able to force people to have abortions or prevent people from having them? That's another Pandora's Box that probably shouldn't be opened; China's one child policy was a good example of this. www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57303592Another alternative is forced sterilizations of certain people, which is another can of worms that shouldn't be opened. I think the best alternative is to take the baby away from bad parents. It sounds awful, but is it a good idea to let or make unfit parents keep their kids? Many times there is a court order to remove the kids from abusive parents or ones that are unable to take care of them properly. Poor people would want a choice to terminate the pregnancy or give the kid away for adoption.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jan 12, 2024 1:58:51 GMT
Just so I understand... You support the choice to give birth despite a complete inability to care for it, but only on the condition that it's taken away from its mother after it's born? We live in a world that is far, far from ideal. Some people should never be allowed to be parents. I think Keanu Reeves character in Parenthood said it perfectly when he mentioned that you need a license to drive or fish, but they let just anyone be a parent. Sadly, some people who should never be parents have kids sometimes do. The government sometimes doesn't intervene. That said, should the government be able to force people to have abortions or prevent people from having them? That's another Pandora's Box that probably shouldn't be opened; China's one child policy was a good example of this. www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57303592Another alternative is forced sterilizations of certain people, which is another can of worms that shouldn't be opened. I think the best alternative is to take the baby away from bad parents. It sounds awful, but is it a good idea to let or make unfit parents keep their kids? Many times there is a court order to remove the kids from abusive parents or ones that are unable to take care of them properly. Poor people would want a choice to terminate the pregnancy or give the kid away for adoption. I'm not sure I agree that it's better to forcefully rid the mother of her child after its born. Do you suppose requiring a license to parent would prevent abortions?
|
|
jimmyboy
Sophomore
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
@jimmyboy
Posts: 185
Likes: 70
|
Post by jimmyboy on Jan 12, 2024 2:18:06 GMT
We live in a world that is far, far from ideal. Some people should never be allowed to be parents. I think Keanu Reeves character in Parenthood said it perfectly when he mentioned that you need a license to drive or fish, but they let just anyone be a parent. Sadly, some people who should never be parents have kids sometimes do. The government sometimes doesn't intervene. That said, should the government be able to force people to have abortions or prevent people from having them? That's another Pandora's Box that probably shouldn't be opened; China's one child policy was a good example of this. www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57303592Another alternative is forced sterilizations of certain people, which is another can of worms that shouldn't be opened. I think the best alternative is to take the baby away from bad parents. It sounds awful, but is it a good idea to let or make unfit parents keep their kids? Many times there is a court order to remove the kids from abusive parents or ones that are unable to take care of them properly. Poor people would want a choice to terminate the pregnancy or give the kid away for adoption. I'm not sure I agree that it's better to forcefully rid the mother of her child after its born. Do you suppose requiring a license to parent would prevent abortions? I'm not sure I agree that it's better to forcefully rid the mother of her child after its born.
You may be right. Usually there is a court order or a family services intervention that does this. Do you have a better idea that would work? Do you suppose requiring a license to parent would prevent abortions?
Interesting idea, but very flawed. What would be the criteria to get a license to have a kid? What about people who have kids without a license (i.e. make them have an abortion; how would it be enforced?; what if parents moved in from a place that doesn't require a permit to have a kid)? It wouldn't prevent any abortions and may increase them as people wouldn't want to pay the penalties for having a kid without a permit or license.
|
|
|
Post by novastar6 on Jan 12, 2024 6:14:38 GMT
Just so I understand... You support the choice to give birth despite a complete inability to care for it, but only on the condition that it's taken away from its mother after it's born? We live in a world that is far, far from ideal. Some people should never be allowed to be parents. I think Keanu Reeves character in Parenthood said it perfectly when he mentioned that you need a license to drive or fish, but they let just anyone be a parent. Sadly, some people who should never be parents have kids sometimes do. The government sometimes doesn't intervene. That said, should the government be able to force people to have abortions or prevent people from having them? That's another Pandora's Box that probably shouldn't be opened; China's one child policy was a good example of this. www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57303592Another alternative is forced sterilizations of certain people, which is another can of worms that shouldn't be opened. I think the best alternative is to take the baby away from bad parents. It sounds awful, but is it a good idea to let or make unfit parents keep their kids? Many times there is a court order to remove the kids from abusive parents or ones that are unable to take care of them properly. Poor people would want a choice to terminate the pregnancy or give the kid away for adoption.
Not parents, Todd said they'd let anybody be a father.
|
|
|
Post by novastar6 on Jan 12, 2024 6:15:41 GMT
I'm not sure I agree that it's better to forcefully rid the mother of her child after its born. Do you suppose requiring a license to parent would prevent abortions? I'm not sure I agree that it's better to forcefully rid the mother of her child after its born.
You may be right. Usually there is a court order or a family services intervention that does this. Do you have a better idea that would work? Do you suppose requiring a license to parent would prevent abortions?
Interesting idea, but very flawed. What would be the criteria to get a license to have a kid? What about people who have kids without a license (i.e. make them have an abortion; how would it be enforced?; what if parents moved in from a place that doesn't require a permit to have a kid)? It wouldn't prevent any abortions and may increase them as people wouldn't want to pay the penalties for having a kid without a permit or license.
A license to parent is fine in theory, but let's step back and remember it's already a law you can't drive a car without a license, and people drive with them revoked every single day, some of them have 50 DUIs and still do it.
|
|
The Lost One
Junior Member
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,679
Likes: 1,305
|
Post by The Lost One on Jan 12, 2024 8:04:13 GMT
Supporting an abortion isn't the same as supporting the freedom to choose one I don’t think I've ever said I support any abortions per se. I just think it should be up to the pregnant woman to decide whether to have one or not regardless of what anyone else thinks.
|
|
|
Post by novastar6 on Jan 12, 2024 19:26:43 GMT
Supporting an abortion isn't the same as supporting the freedom to choose one I don’t think I've ever said I support any abortions per se. I just think it should be up to the pregnant woman to decide whether to have one or not regardless of what anyone else thinks.
Funny thing is a lot of people who say they don't support abortion but merely women's CHOICE...are very quick to do a 180 if any other choice is selected, even using examples where mothers CHOSE to keep their babies as an argument FOR abortion, ignoring the fact the parents willingly KEPT their child, and arguing they should've been aborted anyway because the parents were abusive, the child grew up to be a dictator, etc. basically if the family isn't perfect, the child's life won't be perfect, the ONLY choice a woman should make is to abort it. Anytime the words 'ruined her life' come up, they've proven they don't care what her choice is, they only care about her making THEIR choice.
One of the biggest things that irks me is all the doublespeak involved with abortion.
The same people simultaneously say those kids should be aborted because crack hoes don't make good parents, but oh if those crack hoes kill their kids, then they can magically become successful career women who can do anything and even be first woman president.
The same people say x group of kids need to be aborted because poor people's lives NEVER get better, their conditions NEVER improve, see above, suddenly if poor people kill their kids they can be rich and successful.
The same people who say kids should be aborted because foster care is worse than being dead, and even add that most foster kids would CHOOSE to be dead over their present conditions...and we know nobody ever ASKED foster kids 'do you wish you were dead?', but the same people who say foster care is so horrible, and those kids NEVER get adopted...they suddenly get VERY quiet on how many kids THEY are fostering knowing the system is so bad and wanting to give those kids a decent shot at a good home and life. And these are the same people who say anybody who's anti-abortion but DOESN'T adopt all those babies, is just pro-birth. Well they claim to be pro already-born and their silence indicates they still don't care because they themselves haven't taken in 10 unwanted kids a pop.
And I'll just bet the same people who say women NEED abortion 'because condoms and BC aren't 100% effective' are the same ones who 10+ years ago said 'kids are GOING to have sex, and if parents try to stop them they'll just do it anyway without protection, parents should give them condoms and birth control and that's good enough, the chances of it failing are SOOOOOOO slim!' And it's very funny because when I had those arguments with people years ago, NOBODY said 'well there's JUST abortion if they get pregnant', they didn't even raise that issue, they just said 'oh condoms and pills are 97% effective, that's good enough, let kids do whatever they want, they won't listen to you anyway, it's so RARE teen girls would get pregnant from safe sex'.
The same people who say women shouldn't be shown what happens during an abortion, shouldn't see the baby on the ultrasound, hear its heartbeat, know how far along she is, know the sex, etc., because it's going to guilt and shame her into keeping it, are the same ones who insist any time a girl or a woman gets an abortion, it's HER decision, nobody made her, nobody coerced her, nobody threatened her, no man said he'd dump her because he doesn't want kids, no parents said she'll ruin her life, no grandmother dragged her into the clinic pleading for her baby, ohhhh nooo, women are too smart and independent to be guilted into killing their baby, ONLY into keeping it.
And that's another issue. When women who regret their abortions speak out on the subject, a recurring theme is they say 'if I KNEW what an abortion was, HOW it was done, I *wouldn't* have done it'. People are very quick to support abortion, having no idea what the procedures actually consist of, and pretending it doesn't make a difference. Has any woman ever said 'If I KNEW how boob jobs were done, I wouldn't have gotten one'? Or 'If I KNEW how butt lifts were done, I WOULDN'T have had one'? or 'If I KNEW how tummy tucks are done, I wouldn't have had one'? Aren't patients supposed to be fully informed on the medical procedures they're having, to know what it is, what happens, what to expect, etc? How could one specific corner of the 'medical profession' operate in such ignorance on the part of the patients? And why do they discourage so many patients actually knowing the facts? This comes full circle back to 'don't give women FACTS on abortion because it will guilt and shame them into keeping their baby'.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 12, 2024 20:11:18 GMT
I remember you accusing me of first-degree murder. Gank [sic] of the Gaps? lol No idea what this is about, sorry. Some massacres are justified by God in scripture, at least to the satisfaction of those inspired to pen the verse. Otherwise - not caring too much for speculation and all - you better ask Him to explain Himself - always assuming you think He exists of course. After all "When you pray, I will answer you. When you call to me, I will respond" (Isiah), right? I don't need to do that also since I already know what a purported vengeful jealous and angry God is capable of and the usual apologetics engendered.. But whatever, it all looks pretty bad to any reasonable person without an investment in credulity or special pleading..
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 12, 2024 20:14:46 GMT
I don’t think I've ever said I support any abortions per se. I just think it should be up to the pregnant woman to decide whether to have one or not regardless of what anyone else thinks.
Funny thing is a lot of people who say they don't support abortion but merely women's CHOICE...are very quick to do a 180 if any other choice is selected, even using examples where mothers CHOSE to keep their babies as an argument FOR abortion, ignoring the fact the parents willingly KEPT their child, and arguing they should've been aborted anyway because the parents were abusive, the child grew up to be a dictator, etc. basically if the family isn't perfect, the child's life won't be perfect, the ONLY choice a woman should make is to abort it. Anytime the words 'ruined her life' come up, they've proven they don't care what her choice is, they only care about her making THEIR choice.
One of the biggest things that irks me is all the doublespeak involved with abortion.
The same people simultaneously say those kids should be aborted because crack hoes don't make good parents, but oh if those crack hoes kill their kids, then they can magically become successful career women who can do anything and even be first woman president.
The same people say x group of kids need to be aborted because poor people's lives NEVER get better, their conditions NEVER improve, see above, suddenly if poor people kill their kids they can be rich and successful.
The same people who say kids should be aborted because foster care is worse than being dead, and even add that most foster kids would CHOOSE to be dead over their present conditions...and we know nobody ever ASKED foster kids 'do you wish you were dead?', but the same people who say foster care is so horrible, and those kids NEVER get adopted...they suddenly get VERY quiet on how many kids THEY are fostering knowing the system is so bad and wanting to give those kids a decent shot at a good home and life. And these are the same people who say anybody who's anti-abortion but DOESN'T adopt all those babies, is just pro-birth. Well they claim to be pro already-born and their silence indicates they still don't care because they themselves haven't taken in 10 unwanted kids a pop.
And I'll just bet the same people who say women NEED abortion 'because condoms and BC aren't 100% effective' are the same ones who 10+ years ago said 'kids are GOING to have sex, and if parents try to stop them they'll just do it anyway without protection, parents should give them condoms and birth control and that's good enough, the chances of it failing are SOOOOOOO slim!' And it's very funny because when I had those arguments with people years ago, NOBODY said 'well there's JUST abortion if they get pregnant', they didn't even raise that issue, they just said 'oh condoms and pills are 97% effective, that's good enough, let kids do whatever they want, they won't listen to you anyway, it's so RARE teen girls would get pregnant from safe sex'.
The same people who say women shouldn't be shown what happens during an abortion, shouldn't see the baby on the ultrasound, hear its heartbeat, know how far along she is, know the sex, etc., because it's going to guilt and shame her into keeping it, are the same ones who insist any time a girl or a woman gets an abortion, it's HER decision, nobody made her, nobody coerced her, nobody threatened her, no man said he'd dump her because he doesn't want kids, no parents said she'll ruin her life, no grandmother dragged her into the clinic pleading for her baby, ohhhh nooo, women are too smart and independent to be guilted into killing their baby, ONLY into keeping it... (etc)
And the same person is speaking anecdotally, without any substantiation. At least we are spared the authority of YouTube this time round..
|
|
The Lost One
Junior Member
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,679
Likes: 1,305
|
Post by The Lost One on Jan 12, 2024 21:35:09 GMT
Funny thing is a lot of people who say they don't support abortion but merely women's CHOICE...are very quick to do a 180 if any other choice is selected, even using examples where mothers CHOSE to keep their babies as an argument FOR abortion, ignoring the fact the parents willingly KEPT their child, and arguing they should've been aborted anyway because the parents were abusive, the child grew up to be a dictator, etc. basically if the family isn't perfect, the child's life won't be perfect, the ONLY choice a woman should make is to abort it. Anytime the words 'ruined her life' come up, they've proven they don't care what her choice is, they only care about her making THEIR choice. Could you point to where I've said any of these things?
|
|
|
Post by novastar6 on Jan 12, 2024 23:19:59 GMT
Funny thing is a lot of people who say they don't support abortion but merely women's CHOICE...are very quick to do a 180 if any other choice is selected, even using examples where mothers CHOSE to keep their babies as an argument FOR abortion, ignoring the fact the parents willingly KEPT their child, and arguing they should've been aborted anyway because the parents were abusive, the child grew up to be a dictator, etc. basically if the family isn't perfect, the child's life won't be perfect, the ONLY choice a woman should make is to abort it. Anytime the words 'ruined her life' come up, they've proven they don't care what her choice is, they only care about her making THEIR choice. Could you point to where I've said any of these things?
I never said you did. I said a lot of people.
|
|
jimmyboy
Sophomore
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
@jimmyboy
Posts: 185
Likes: 70
|
Post by jimmyboy on Jan 12, 2024 23:34:26 GMT
We live in a world that is far, far from ideal. Some people should never be allowed to be parents. I think Keanu Reeves character in Parenthood said it perfectly when he mentioned that you need a license to drive or fish, but they let just anyone be a parent. Sadly, some people who should never be parents have kids sometimes do. The government sometimes doesn't intervene. That said, should the government be able to force people to have abortions or prevent people from having them? That's another Pandora's Box that probably shouldn't be opened; China's one child policy was a good example of this. www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57303592Another alternative is forced sterilizations of certain people, which is another can of worms that shouldn't be opened. I think the best alternative is to take the baby away from bad parents. It sounds awful, but is it a good idea to let or make unfit parents keep their kids? Many times there is a court order to remove the kids from abusive parents or ones that are unable to take care of them properly. Poor people would want a choice to terminate the pregnancy or give the kid away for adoption. I'm not sure I agree that it's better to forcefully rid the mother of her child after its born. Do you suppose requiring a license to parent would prevent abortions? I'm not sure I agree that it's better to forcefully rid the mother of her child after its born.Yeah, but that is what is done by social services every day in North America. It's the SOP - standard operating procedure, and done often with a court order. Police often accompany social services to do this.
|
|
The Lost One
Junior Member
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,679
Likes: 1,305
|
Post by The Lost One on Jan 13, 2024 19:23:51 GMT
Could you point to where I've said any of these things?
I never said you did. I said a lot of people.
Fair enough.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jan 17, 2024 1:53:12 GMT
I remember you accusing me of first-degree murder. Gank [sic] of the Gaps? lol No idea what this is about, sorry. I told you I parked my car on the grass, then you accused me of doing so deliberately to kill. You presumed my intentions just to avoid saying "I don't know" right in the middle of your "mysterious ways" shtick. You're a bit sic-happy lately. "Gank" was intentional and spelled properly. Did you lose the context already? But you are asking me...
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jan 17, 2024 1:53:31 GMT
Supporting an abortion isn't the same as supporting the freedom to choose one I don’t think I've ever said I support any abortions per se. I just think it should be up to the pregnant woman to decide whether to have one or not regardless of what anyone else thinks. Ok, but it still seems problematic.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jan 17, 2024 1:54:44 GMT
I'm not sure I agree that it's better to forcefully rid the mother of her child after its born. Do you suppose requiring a license to parent would prevent abortions? I'm not sure I agree that it's better to forcefully rid the mother of her child after its born.Yeah, but that is what is done by social services every day in North America. It's the SOP - standard operating procedure, and done often with a court order. Police often accompany social services to do this. Do you always let the law dictate your morality, or is this a special case?
|
|
jimmyboy
Sophomore
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_yellow.png)
@jimmyboy
Posts: 185
Likes: 70
|
Post by jimmyboy on Jan 17, 2024 3:58:16 GMT
I'm not sure I agree that it's better to forcefully rid the mother of her child after its born.Yeah, but that is what is done by social services every day in North America. It's the SOP - standard operating procedure, and done often with a court order. Police often accompany social services to do this. Do you always let the law dictate your morality, or is this a special case? I find it odd that you ask this. Stunned actually. Very puzzled mostly. There is often a very good reason this is done. For example, a parent comes home and uses their kid as a punching bag; maybe they like touching the kid sexually. Maybe they like leaving town for a few weeks or months at a time and the the ten y/o in charge with no adult. I am going to assume you are aware this happens and that the kids should be yanked away from the parents. So yes, this is a good thing, maybe a great thing.
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Jan 17, 2024 4:47:01 GMT
Do you always let the law dictate your morality, or is this a special case? I find it odd that you ask this. Stunned actually. Very puzzled mostly. There is often a very good reason this is done. For example, a parent comes home and uses their kid as a punching bag; maybe they like touching the kid sexually. Maybe they like leaving town for a few weeks or months at a time and the the ten y/o in charge with no adult. I am going to assume you are aware this happens and that the kids should be yanked away from the parents. So yes, this is a good thing, maybe a great thing. I was questioning whether it's better to forcibly rid the mother of her child before or after its born. To say it's better to do it after because it's legal is to let the law dictate your morality. At any rate, this wasn't a comparison between protection and prevention. If it were, we would be talking about killing the kid instead of saving him.
|
|