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Post by novastar6 on Aug 13, 2023 6:39:20 GMT
The way of the future, go green, fight climate change, cheaper, responsible citizenship, right?
Yeah this TOTALLY sounds so much better for people and the planet.
I'm sure all those fires that burn for days on end don't contribute to air pollution whatsoever. Just imagine a few of these getting into head-on collisions on the freeway, what could POSSIBLY go wrong?
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uncreative
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Post by uncreative on Aug 14, 2023 23:43:18 GMT
I'm not watching all that but gas vehicles are several times more likely to catch fire than an EV, even a coal powered EV is cleaner than a gas engine, charging costs are about half what a gas station costs, and lithium mining isn't nearly as destructive as endless oil drilling.
If you wanted to talk about range issues you might have a point in specific cases like towing or extreme cold on long road trips. Meanwhile the manufacturing costs are coming down fast and more chargers are popping up all the time.
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Post by novastar6 on Aug 15, 2023 7:54:11 GMT
I'm not watching all that but gas vehicles are several times more likely to catch fire than an EV, even a coal powered EV is cleaner than a gas engine, charging costs are about half what a gas station costs, and lithium mining isn't nearly as destructive as endless oil drilling. If you wanted to talk about range issues you might have a point in specific cases like towing or extreme cold on long road trips. Meanwhile the manufacturing costs are coming down fast and more chargers are popping up all the time.
1. Gas vehicles that catch on fire don't require a special fire extinguisher. Is there an EV fire extinguisher for every single EV being put out on the market?
2. So burning coal is good for the environment now? Guess the hippies have been wrong for 50 years.
3. Gas stations don't cost a parking fee for the time your car is parked at the pump. Gas cars also don't require charges being installed for home and work to the tune of an extra $10,000.
4. What are the costs going to be when roads already worn and torn from gas cars and trucks, suddenly have millions of EVs, with batteries that weigh 1,000 pounds, driving on them all day every day? Remember, the goal is to mandate EVERYBODY has an EV eventually, this will be the new norm.
5. You can have all the chargers you want, but the power grid can't accommodate everybody. People who lived through the Texas power grid failure in 2021 already know that, and that was WITHOUT everybody needing their car charged to boot. If 4.5 million people in 1 state don't have any power, how are their cars going to run? How many people would NOT have their EVs adequately charged *before* millions of people are plunged into a power outage? Especially if EVERYBODY has them, and everybody has to wait for an opening at the charging station? They advertise on TV 'ooooh you can get it 80% charged in 20 minutes'. Uh huh, and if somebody pulls in for gas, they're in and out in 5 minutes tops with a full tank. People are going to get far less sick of waiting around for someone to get done gassing up a car than 20 minutes charging it.
Most points of which are covered in the above videos.
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uncreative
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Post by uncreative on Aug 16, 2023 2:59:00 GMT
I'm not watching all that but gas vehicles are several times more likely to catch fire than an EV, even a coal powered EV is cleaner than a gas engine, charging costs are about half what a gas station costs, and lithium mining isn't nearly as destructive as endless oil drilling. If you wanted to talk about range issues you might have a point in specific cases like towing or extreme cold on long road trips. Meanwhile the manufacturing costs are coming down fast and more chargers are popping up all the time.
1. Gas vehicles that catch on fire don't require a special fire extinguisher. Is there an EV fire extinguisher for every single EV being put out on the market?
2. So burning coal is good for the environment now? Guess the hippies have been wrong for 50 years.
3. Gas stations don't cost a parking fee for the time your car is parked at the pump. Gas cars also don't require charges being installed for home and work to the tune of an extra $10,000.
4. What are the costs going to be when roads already worn and torn from gas cars and trucks, suddenly have millions of EVs, with batteries that weigh 1,000 pounds, driving on them all day every day? Remember, the goal is to mandate EVERYBODY has an EV eventually, this will be the new norm.
5. You can have all the chargers you want, but the power grid can't accommodate everybody. People who lived through the Texas power grid failure in 2021 already know that, and that was WITHOUT everybody needing their car charged to boot. If 4.5 million people in 1 state don't have any power, how are their cars going to run? How many people would NOT have their EVs adequately charged *before* millions of people are plunged into a power outage? Especially if EVERYBODY has them, and everybody has to wait for an opening at the charging station? They advertise on TV 'ooooh you can get it 80% charged in 20 minutes'. Uh huh, and if somebody pulls in for gas, they're in and out in 5 minutes tops with a full tank. People are going to get far less sick of waiting around for someone to get done gassing up a car than 20 minutes charging it.
Most points of which are covered in the above videos.
You're just being intentionally stupid now if you think anyone suggested that coal is good, but even on coal power and EV produces less than half the carbon per mile compared to an ICE. My charger was about $500 for the unit and $1,000 to install before the 30% federal credit was applied. So you only overestimated the price by about 10x. And idle fees only get charged when you're full. Anyone who knows what they're doing can dial down the power the car draws to give you as much time as you need. Give it a few years and most workplaces and apartment buildings will have on site chargers too. Road damage scales to the 4th power compared to weight so a fully loaded semi causes the equivalent wear and tear of several thousand cars. Vehicle weights are a problem for pedestrians but even then it's the massively oversized trucks that are more of a danger than battery weights. Last of all the grid issue isn't even a problem. When there's a power use warning it's typically only for a few peak hours which isn't even when people charge. In the case of a blackout like Texas the gas pumps would also be out of commission so a dead battery or an empty gas tank both mean you're out of luck. And while it's not a common feature yet, some EVs like the F150 have bidirectional power so your house can use the car as a backup generator in an emergency.
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Post by azzajones on Aug 28, 2023 9:22:44 GMT
I'm not about to watch all of those but read what Rowan Atkinson had to say on EV cars: Guardian Article
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Post by novastar6 on Sept 2, 2023 15:07:14 GMT
1. Gas vehicles that catch on fire don't require a special fire extinguisher. Is there an EV fire extinguisher for every single EV being put out on the market?
2. So burning coal is good for the environment now? Guess the hippies have been wrong for 50 years.
3. Gas stations don't cost a parking fee for the time your car is parked at the pump. Gas cars also don't require charges being installed for home and work to the tune of an extra $10,000.
4. What are the costs going to be when roads already worn and torn from gas cars and trucks, suddenly have millions of EVs, with batteries that weigh 1,000 pounds, driving on them all day every day? Remember, the goal is to mandate EVERYBODY has an EV eventually, this will be the new norm.
5. You can have all the chargers you want, but the power grid can't accommodate everybody. People who lived through the Texas power grid failure in 2021 already know that, and that was WITHOUT everybody needing their car charged to boot. If 4.5 million people in 1 state don't have any power, how are their cars going to run? How many people would NOT have their EVs adequately charged *before* millions of people are plunged into a power outage? Especially if EVERYBODY has them, and everybody has to wait for an opening at the charging station? They advertise on TV 'ooooh you can get it 80% charged in 20 minutes'. Uh huh, and if somebody pulls in for gas, they're in and out in 5 minutes tops with a full tank. People are going to get far less sick of waiting around for someone to get done gassing up a car than 20 minutes charging it.
Most points of which are covered in the above videos.
You're just being intentionally stupid now if you think anyone suggested that coal is good, but even on coal power and EV produces less than half the carbon per mile compared to an ICE. My charger was about $500 for the unit and $1,000 to install before the 30% federal credit was applied. So you only overestimated the price by about 10x. And idle fees only get charged when you're full. Anyone who knows what they're doing can dial down the power the car draws to give you as much time as you need. Give it a few years and most workplaces and apartment buildings will have on site chargers too. Road damage scales to the 4th power compared to weight so a fully loaded semi causes the equivalent wear and tear of several thousand cars. Vehicle weights are a problem for pedestrians but even then it's the massively oversized trucks that are more of a danger than battery weights. Last of all the grid issue isn't even a problem. When there's a power use warning it's typically only for a few peak hours which isn't even when people charge. In the case of a blackout like Texas the gas pumps would also be out of commission so a dead battery or an empty gas tank both mean you're out of luck. And while it's not a common feature yet, some EVs like the F150 have bidirectional power so your house can use the car as a backup generator in an emergency.
You're assuming the power grid and electricity would operate the same now when most people still drive gas vehicles as when the entire world is forced to go electric. That'd be like saying if a nightclub can easily and safely house 100 people and stay within the codes, squeezing 500 more in won't pose anymore of a health and safety risk. Not the case. And how much more do you think the average person's electric bill is going to be when billions more homes have to have chargers installed for EVs? You think there are going to be *less* people having to pick between having a home or a car then? And who wants to have their 'home' they're sleeping in spontaneously burst into a 1500 degree fire because the lithium batteries exploded?
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Post by novastar6 on Sept 2, 2023 15:08:52 GMT
I'm not about to watch all of those but read what Rowan Atkinson had to say on EV cars: Guardian Article
Mr. Bean is very smart.
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Post by novastar6 on Sept 2, 2023 15:09:45 GMT
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Post by azzajones on Sept 9, 2023 7:28:13 GMT
People get rid of new cars after 3 years? I've never heard that before, hell I've never bought a new car and I never will.
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Post by divtal on Sept 9, 2023 18:44:18 GMT
What an excellent thread! And, I think that the inclusion of Rowan Atkinson's article is a valuable contribution.
I am not trained in any of the engineering arts/sciences, that impact the debate over this important question about our future. I'll listen to all input.
I do think that Mr. Atkinson's ... and poster "azzajones'" ... comments on our social attachment to, and traditions, with the automobile, should play a large part in the transition to the best solution/s.
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Post by novastar6 on Sept 9, 2023 19:58:44 GMT
People get rid of new cars after 3 years? I've never heard that before, hell I've never bought a new car and I never will.
Like cellphones, people gotta get every new upgrade because everybody else is doing it.
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Post by novastar6 on Feb 19, 2024 10:27:53 GMT
Almost a year after Rowan Atkinson sounds off on electric cars, NOW he's being blamed for the UK sales going down.
Meanwhile I noticed since the push for all vehicles to be electric now, our state lottery is no longer putting out tickets where the top prize is a new car/pickup truck. I wonder why?
Doesn't everybody want one of these in their garage? Especially the kind that connects to their home? Doesn't everyone want to watch TV or sleep right above one of these?
BTW what part of all these explosions and fires and needing 6,000 gallons of water to put them out, oh and burning COAL to produce them in the first place, is going to save the planet exactly? And how would forcing everybody to own these NOT collapse the power grid? Or is that the ultimate goal? No electricity = less pollution?
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Post by novastar6 on Feb 22, 2024 6:21:42 GMT
Guess another thing worth pointing out, the sales pitch was always 'go green', in addition to nobody saying it would be cheaper than a gas car, nobody ever said they would be SAFER than gas cars either. And I know some people like to pretend it's the same or not a big difference, well not according to the experts.
With these facts, how many of these are we going to be seeing in the world of professional racing, where collisions, flips, and general wrecks are a fairly common occurrence in front of thousands of bystanders?
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ralfy
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Post by ralfy on Feb 24, 2024 9:52:32 GMT
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gw
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Post by gw on Feb 25, 2024 3:34:12 GMT
Even if you’re right that electric cars are a false solution to the problem of fighting off global warming, the obvious question is What should we do instead?
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ralfy
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Post by ralfy on Feb 25, 2024 5:46:49 GMT
Humanity will be forced to use public transport and electric rail, if possible. Otherwise, it will have to use gas- and diesel-powered vehicles, and again for public transport, if there is not enough infrastructure for electric. For personal travel, they will have to walk, use things like bicycles, or animal-powered vehicles.
This will be for basic needs. If most people have wants, then there will be resource shortages across the board, and with that, more conflict, even leading to wars.
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Post by novastar6 on Feb 25, 2024 14:34:09 GMT
Even if you’re right that electric cars are a false solution to the problem of fighting off global warming, the obvious question is What should we do instead?
What we did before, let people CHOOSE their mode of transportation instead of mandating something that's even worse for the environment and will bankrupt everybody in the process so they wind up LIVING in a ticking lithium bomb. The world can survive just fine without people in it, but the goal was always supposed to be save the planet for us to live in and for it to be WORTH living in there has to be an actual quality to that life, not 'suffer every single day through every single thing in the name of going green'.
We could really cut down on pollution, etc., if we just banned all private citizens from owning ANY vehicles and forced them all to ride bikes everywhere. Only emergency workers, city workers, delivery, mail, etc., would be allowed to use motor vehicles in their official lines of work, ONLY factories would need to exist to manufacture THOSE vehicles, we would ONLY need garages and fuel stations to service THOSE vehicles, that could probably take the air and water pollution quality back to what it was in the 1910s before most people ever had a car. It would be GREAT for the planet, but how would the people fair? Well, it would also eliminate obesity, you can't be fat if you can only buy as much food as you can physically carry and they would have to spend hours every single day exercising everywhere they went. So they would all be thin, and breathing cleaner air, but how would that actually work for their daily lives? Everybody who commutes would have to get up at about 1-3 in the morning to get to work on time and would probably get home around 10-12 PM, they'd definitely get their 10,000 steps in and then some, but would mankind actually be better off for it? How well would that work in the dead of winter when it's 30 below zero and people STILL have to get to work or go to school, or grocery shopping, or to the hospital?
There's no one answer that's good for everybody, if 100 years ago they had found a way for cars to run on water, at the time it would've been great because water was relatively free and probably been less pollution, but then if that had happened, today water would be $20 a gallon because of its multipurpose function as fuel for all living organisms AND fuel for every car, truck and motorcycle on the road. We would likely be looking at a real life Road Warrior situation if that were the case.
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gw
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Post by gw on Feb 25, 2024 21:19:03 GMT
Even if you’re right that electric cars are a false solution to the problem of fighting off global warming, the obvious question is What should we do instead?
What we did before, let people CHOOSE their mode of transportation instead of mandating something that's even worse for the environment and will bankrupt everybody in the process so they wind up LIVING in a ticking lithium bomb. The world can survive just fine without people in it, but the goal was always supposed to be save the planet for us to live in and for it to be WORTH living in there has to be an actual quality to that life, not 'suffer every single day through every single thing in the name of going green'.
We could really cut down on pollution, etc., if we just banned all private citizens from owning ANY vehicles and forced them all to ride bikes everywhere. Only emergency workers, city workers, delivery, mail, etc., would be allowed to use motor vehicles in their official lines of work, ONLY factories would need to exist to manufacture THOSE vehicles, we would ONLY need garages and fuel stations to service THOSE vehicles, that could probably take the air and water pollution quality back to what it was in the 1910s before most people ever had a car. It would be GREAT for the planet, but how would the people fair? Well, it would also eliminate obesity, you can't be fat if you can only buy as much food as you can physically carry and they would have to spend hours every single day exercising everywhere they went. So they would all be thin, and breathing cleaner air, but how would that actually work for their daily lives? Everybody who commutes would have to get up at about 1-3 in the morning to get to work on time and would probably get home around 10-12 PM, they'd definitely get their 10,000 steps in and then some, but would mankind actually be better off for it? How well would that work in the dead of winter when it's 30 below zero and people STILL have to get to work or go to school, or grocery shopping, or to the hospital?
There's no one answer that's good for everybody, if 100 years ago they had found a way for cars to run on water, at the time it would've been great because water was relatively free and probably been less pollution, but then if that had happened, today water would be $20 a gallon because of its multipurpose function as fuel for all living organisms AND fuel for every car, truck and motorcycle on the road. We would likely be looking at a real life Road Warrior situation if that were the case.
A few things to mention. One, clean and safe batteries are being worked on as we speak. With that knowledge, I'd say that electric vehicles could be a good thing in the long run but they jumped the gun by implementing them too early with flawed battery technology. I see why you'd say that people should be able to choose their mode of transportation. As for the power grid, maybe it's just too soon. I don't want to get too political, but in the US the GOP congress keeps finding excuses not to fund basic infrastructure because they don't want to be seen as weak by agreeing with the left or make them look good. I agree to some extent on choosing transportation like with planes and trains, or making the streets safer for bicyclists. As for riding bikes everywhere, I see how it could work for some and not others. Probably not in Alaska or during the winter in the Northern US states. Water BatteriesAs for the other ways of choosing transportation, choosing between gas and electric vehicles, it could work for a while. But forget the green movement for a moment. The other problem is running out of oil. If we decide to use gas vehicles then we need to get the gas from renewable sources. Corn? We could get rid of many unhealthy corn foods and solve the oil problem but I don't know if that's good for the long term because the US corn industry is sustained by government subsidies. We could have combined electric/gas stations for a while to help some people adjust. In the long term though, I think that we should have an electric system because there's simply no reason for gas other than nostalgia, that is, unless there's some sort of plastic that absolutely requires oil to make. Some things become obsolete and we need to deal with that.
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Post by novastar6 on Feb 26, 2024 16:00:53 GMT
What we did before, let people CHOOSE their mode of transportation instead of mandating something that's even worse for the environment and will bankrupt everybody in the process so they wind up LIVING in a ticking lithium bomb. The world can survive just fine without people in it, but the goal was always supposed to be save the planet for us to live in and for it to be WORTH living in there has to be an actual quality to that life, not 'suffer every single day through every single thing in the name of going green'.
We could really cut down on pollution, etc., if we just banned all private citizens from owning ANY vehicles and forced them all to ride bikes everywhere. Only emergency workers, city workers, delivery, mail, etc., would be allowed to use motor vehicles in their official lines of work, ONLY factories would need to exist to manufacture THOSE vehicles, we would ONLY need garages and fuel stations to service THOSE vehicles, that could probably take the air and water pollution quality back to what it was in the 1910s before most people ever had a car. It would be GREAT for the planet, but how would the people fair? Well, it would also eliminate obesity, you can't be fat if you can only buy as much food as you can physically carry and they would have to spend hours every single day exercising everywhere they went. So they would all be thin, and breathing cleaner air, but how would that actually work for their daily lives? Everybody who commutes would have to get up at about 1-3 in the morning to get to work on time and would probably get home around 10-12 PM, they'd definitely get their 10,000 steps in and then some, but would mankind actually be better off for it? How well would that work in the dead of winter when it's 30 below zero and people STILL have to get to work or go to school, or grocery shopping, or to the hospital?
There's no one answer that's good for everybody, if 100 years ago they had found a way for cars to run on water, at the time it would've been great because water was relatively free and probably been less pollution, but then if that had happened, today water would be $20 a gallon because of its multipurpose function as fuel for all living organisms AND fuel for every car, truck and motorcycle on the road. We would likely be looking at a real life Road Warrior situation if that were the case.
A few things to mention. One, clean and safe batteries are being worked on as we speak. With that knowledge, I'd say that electric vehicles could be a good thing in the long run but they jumped the gun by implementing them too early with flawed battery technology. I see why you'd say that people should be able to choose their mode of transportation. As for the power grid, maybe it's just too soon. I don't want to get too political, but in the US the GOP congress keeps finding excuses not to fund basic infrastructure because they don't want to be seen as weak by agreeing with the left or make them look good. I agree to some extent on choosing transportation like with planes and trains, or making the streets safer for bicyclists. As for riding bikes everywhere, I see how it could work for some and not others. Probably not in Alaska or during the winter in the Northern US states. Water BatteriesAs for the other ways of choosing transportation, choosing between gas and electric vehicles, it could work for a while. But forget the green movement for a moment. The other problem is running out of oil. If we decide to use gas vehicles then we need to get the gas from renewable sources. Corn? We could get rid of many unhealthy corn foods and solve the oil problem but I don't know if that's good for the long term because the US corn industry is sustained by government subsidies. We could have combined electric/gas stations for a while to help some people adjust. In the long term though, I think that we should have an electric system because there's simply no reason for gas other than nostalgia, that is, unless there's some sort of plastic that absolutely requires oil to make. Some things become obsolete and we need to deal with that.
There's a difference in things not working/existing anymore and people saying 'that's old! We need something new and cool!' and the latter is often mistaken for actual obsolescence. VCRs didn't stop working just because nobody made or sold them anymore. Vinyl records made a comeback because the actual sound experience on them can't be duplicated on CD or Mp3.
The problems with electric cars today are the exact same problems they faced 100 years ago when they were first invented, but nobody let that stop them from the idea they should FORCE the public to give up gas cars along with gas stoves, gas mowers, gas everything, gas, which will allow people to cook on their stove even in a power outage. And all under the guise of 'go green, save the planet'. Again, since large amounts of coal have to be burnt to make those green cars, how is that helping the environment any? And is coal a renewable resource? There are already millions of electric cars in the world that NOBODY is buying, so what happens when all the coal in the world is used up to make even more that nobody wants?
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gw
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Post by gw on Feb 26, 2024 21:55:00 GMT
A few things to mention. One, clean and safe batteries are being worked on as we speak. With that knowledge, I'd say that electric vehicles could be a good thing in the long run but they jumped the gun by implementing them too early with flawed battery technology. I see why you'd say that people should be able to choose their mode of transportation. As for the power grid, maybe it's just too soon. I don't want to get too political, but in the US the GOP congress keeps finding excuses not to fund basic infrastructure because they don't want to be seen as weak by agreeing with the left or make them look good. I agree to some extent on choosing transportation like with planes and trains, or making the streets safer for bicyclists. As for riding bikes everywhere, I see how it could work for some and not others. Probably not in Alaska or during the winter in the Northern US states. Water BatteriesAs for the other ways of choosing transportation, choosing between gas and electric vehicles, it could work for a while. But forget the green movement for a moment. The other problem is running out of oil. If we decide to use gas vehicles then we need to get the gas from renewable sources. Corn? We could get rid of many unhealthy corn foods and solve the oil problem but I don't know if that's good for the long term because the US corn industry is sustained by government subsidies. We could have combined electric/gas stations for a while to help some people adjust. In the long term though, I think that we should have an electric system because there's simply no reason for gas other than nostalgia, that is, unless there's some sort of plastic that absolutely requires oil to make. Some things become obsolete and we need to deal with that.
There's a difference in things not working/existing anymore and people saying 'that's old! We need something new and cool!' and the latter is often mistaken for actual obsolescence. VCRs didn't stop working just because nobody made or sold them anymore. Vinyl records made a comeback because the actual sound experience on them can't be duplicated on CD or Mp3.
The problems with electric cars today are the exact same problems they faced 100 years ago when they were first invented, but nobody let that stop them from the idea they should FORCE the public to give up gas cars along with gas stoves, gas mowers, gas everything, gas, which will allow people to cook on their stove even in a power outage. And all under the guise of 'go green, save the planet'. Again, since large amounts of coal have to be burnt to make those green cars, how is that helping the environment any? And is coal a renewable resource? There are already millions of electric cars in the world that NOBODY is buying, so what happens when all the coal in the world is used up to make even more that nobody wants?
Ocean acidity and the gender imbalance of sea turtles are two reasons to not continue to use fossil fuels. I admit that the current electric vehicles are flawed but so are gas vehicles. And people can generate and store reserve electricity so unless you have a cogent argument based on EMPs or something then gas might not be necessary.
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