Hnefahogg
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@hnefahogg
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Post by Hnefahogg on Jan 5, 2024 18:54:23 GMT
It's like an anti-communist joining a Labour Day parade.
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The Lost One
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@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Jan 5, 2024 19:24:39 GMT
Christmas really has three aspects: 1. Marking the birth of Christ 2. A time of family and community 3. Buying presents to keep the economy afloat
An atheist can quite happily take part in the second two aspects even if they don't care about the first.
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Post by Rodney Farber on Jan 13, 2024 13:32:52 GMT
Christmas really has three aspects: 1. Marking the birth of Christ 2. A time of family and community 3. Buying presents to keep the economy afloat An atheist can quite happily take part in the second two aspects even if they don't care about the first. Perhaps the real question should be: Why do Christians celebrate Jesus' birth on the same day that Pagans celebrate(d) the shortest day of the year? For those of you that say, that the winter solstice is days before December 25th, let me give you a history and astronomy lesson. Before 46BC, Pagans celebrated on the shortest day of the year. With all sorts of screwy calendars, they sometimes missed by a day or so. Then along came Julius Caesar who set the calendar at 365 and one quarter days, with the vernal equinox falling on the 25th of March (which made the winter solstice fall on the 25th of December). Now the Pagans knew when to celebrate the winter solstice. The Julian calendar was far better than anything that preceded it. However, the real time between vernal equinoxes is 11 minutes shorter than 365 and 1/4 days. This causes an error of one day every 128 years. The die was cast that Pagans celebrated on the 25th of December even as the calendar slowly drifted. By the fourth century, the winter solstice had drifted back to December 21st. Wikipedia: There are different hypotheses regarding the date of Jesus's birth, and in the early fourth century, the church fixed the date as December 25. This corresponds to the traditional date of the winter solstice on the Roman calendar. Like the Pagans sticking to December 25th, the Church is sticking with it as well. Biblical scholars pretty much agree (today) that Jesus was born in the spring. To bring you further up to date, by 1582 the Catholic Church had had enough calendar drifting. The vernal equinox had drifted back to about March 11th. Pope Gregory XIII shortened the year by eliminating three leap days every 400 years. At the same time, he eliminated ten days in 1582 so the day after 04-OCT-1582 was 15-OCT-1582. This set the date of the vernal equinox back to March 21st, the same day that it was back during the First Council of Nicea. Gradually, just about everyone has now shifted to the Gregorian calendar. The USA shifted in 1752 by dropping 11 days (1700 was not a leap year in the Gregorian calendar).
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jimmyboy
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@jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Jan 13, 2024 15:30:29 GMT
I always thought that it wasn't Jesus's day of birth that mattered, but how he died and that the result of him being martyred, everyone was saved.
At least that is what a Catholic priest told me.
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Post by clusium on Jan 13, 2024 20:33:22 GMT
I always thought that it wasn't Jesus's day of birth that mattered, but how he died and that the result of him being martyred, everyone was saved. At least that is what a Catholic priest told me. While yes, His Passion, Death, and Resurrection are what mattered, the fact that He Was Born meant that that could happen.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 13, 2024 22:24:47 GMT
It's like an anti-communist joining a Labour Day parade. As an atheist I don't believe in God but I do believe in presents.
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jimmyboy
Sophomore
@jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Jan 13, 2024 23:01:26 GMT
I always thought that it wasn't Jesus's day of birth that mattered, but how he died and that the result of him being martyred, everyone was saved. At least that is what a Catholic priest told me. While yes, His Passion, Death, and Resurrection are what mattered, the fact that He Was Born meant that that could happen. In biblical times, it didn't matter
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Post by clusium on Jan 14, 2024 0:21:33 GMT
While yes, His Passion, Death, and Resurrection are what mattered, the fact that He Was Born meant that that could happen. In biblical times, it didn't matter Of course it didn't matter in Biblical times. That's why the shepherds that were outside of the town of Bethlehem left their sheep to graze in the fields in the middle of the night to search for the Newborn Child in the town, after experiencing an apparition of angels telling them that the Messiah Was Born, plus Zoroastrian priests from another country travelled to Israel to seek the Baby Messiah.
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Jan 14, 2024 21:43:06 GMT
In biblical times, it didn't matter Of course it didn't matter in Biblical times. That's why the shepherds that were outside of the town of Bethlehem left their sheep to graze in the fields in the middle of the night to search for the Newborn Child in the town, after experiencing an apparition of angels telling them that the Messiah Was Born, plus Zoroastrian priests from another country travelled to Israel to seek the Baby Messiah. So that's why it took a few centuries to decide on when he was born.....
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Post by clusium on Jan 14, 2024 22:56:11 GMT
Of course it didn't matter in Biblical times. That's why the shepherds that were outside of the town of Bethlehem left their sheep to graze in the fields in the middle of the night to search for the Newborn Child in the town, after experiencing an apparition of angels telling them that the Messiah Was Born, plus Zoroastrian priests from another country travelled to Israel to seek the Baby Messiah. So that's why it took a few centuries to decide on when he was born..... Yes, it took some detective work but, they managed to figure it out. When St. Zechariah was offering incense in the Temple, it meant that he was the priest that was making the Yom Kippur offerings. So they deduced that his son, St. John the Baptist was born roughly 9 months later, in late June (Yom Kippur comes roughly late September/early October), & since St. John was 6 months older than the Lord Jesus, they deduced that Our Lord Was Born in late December. How Our Lord's Timing For His Nativity Was Figured Out
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jan 14, 2024 23:11:21 GMT
In biblical times, it didn't matter Of course it didn't matter in Biblical times. That's why the shepherds that were outside of the town of Bethlehem left their sheep to graze in the fields in the middle of the night to search for the Newborn Child in the town, after experiencing an apparition of angels telling them that the Messiah Was Born, plus Zoroastrian priests from another country travelled to Israel to seek the Baby Messiah. Many scholars do not see the Luke and Matthew nativity stories as historically factual, regarding them as laced with theology and presenting two substantially different accounts and genealogies. For instance, they point to Matthew's account of the appearance of an angel to Joseph in a dream; the wise men from the East; the massacre of the innocents; and the flight to Egypt, which do not appear in Luke, which instead describes the appearance of an angel to Mary; the Roman census; the birth in a manger; and the choir of angels appearing to the shepherds in the fields.
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Post by clusium on Jan 14, 2024 23:43:36 GMT
Of course it didn't matter in Biblical times. That's why the shepherds that were outside of the town of Bethlehem left their sheep to graze in the fields in the middle of the night to search for the Newborn Child in the town, after experiencing an apparition of angels telling them that the Messiah Was Born, plus Zoroastrian priests from another country travelled to Israel to seek the Baby Messiah. Many scholars do not see the Luke and Matthew nativity stories as historically factual, regarding them as laced with theology and presenting two substantially different accounts and genealogies. For instance, they point to Matthew's account of the appearance of an angel to Joseph in a dream; the wise men from the East; the massacre of the innocents; and the flight to Egypt, which do not appear in Luke, which instead describes the appearance of an angel to Mary; the Roman census; the birth in a manger; and the choir of angels appearing to the shepherds in the fields. Whether they do or not is not the point. It is how Christ's Day of Birth was determined is.
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jimmyboy
Sophomore
@jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Jan 16, 2024 1:14:21 GMT
Many scholars do not see the Luke and Matthew nativity stories as historically factual, regarding them as laced with theology and presenting two substantially different accounts and genealogies. For instance, they point to Matthew's account of the appearance of an angel to Joseph in a dream; the wise men from the East; the massacre of the innocents; and the flight to Egypt, which do not appear in Luke, which instead describes the appearance of an angel to Mary; the Roman census; the birth in a manger; and the choir of angels appearing to the shepherds in the fields. Whether they do or not is not the point. It is how Christ's Day of Birth was determined is. Except they really, really messed up and instead of going for historical accuracy, the Catholics played politics and pandered to the pagans to get them to get right with Jesus.
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Post by clusium on Jan 16, 2024 4:51:11 GMT
Whether they do or not is not the point. It is how Christ's Day of Birth was determined is. Except they really, really messed up and instead of going for historical accuracy, the Catholics played politics and pandered to the pagans to get them to get right with Jesus. No they didn't. Converts to Christianity were pretty much like ALL converts to new religions: They become zealous against their old religions.
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Post by Roberto on Jan 16, 2024 7:01:02 GMT
Why wouldn't they? Christmas has evolved far beyond the original religious purpose. You don't have to believe a story is real in order to celebrate it. If a new holiday was created around Tolkien's work, would you refuse to celebrate it just because it's not real?
There's so much for anyone to enjoy with Christmas. The spending time with family/friends, the presents, the decorations and general aesthetic, the movies, the music etc.
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Post by amyghost on Jan 16, 2024 11:40:47 GMT
Because you don't have to believe in the myth to enjoy the holiday. A fair number of Jews observe Christmas for a variety of reasons, without accepting the Jesus story. And since the Jesus myth was simply tacked onto pre-existing 'pagan' celebrations anyway, in order for the Church to attract followers, what possible difference does it make whether or no one believes in the alleged reasons behind what is no more than a huge commercial blowout in the modern world?
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IceMan
New Member
Fluffing
@iceman
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Post by IceMan on Jan 20, 2024 17:38:05 GMT
Why do atheists celebrate Christmas? Because it's not really about Jesus. It's just a holiday. Even people that at least sort of believe still don't typically celebrate Christmas for Jesus but for the holiday. It's about family, gifts, and decorations. Jesus is just an excuse for the holiday existing. What does a decorated pine tree or gifts have to do with Jesus being born? Nothing. What does Santa Claus have to do with Jesus? Nothing. It's all holiday fluff. Ever wonder what a bunny, wicker basket, painted eggs, and flowery decorations have to do with Jesus? Makes no sense, right? That's because Easter isn't about Jesus. It's a spring renewal and fertility celebration named after a pagan goddess by the same name, for whom a rabbit was a common representation. When Vikings intermingled with England, there was a mixing of cultures, languages, and customs, and Easter got lazily repurposed as about Jesus without really changing anything.
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Jan 20, 2024 18:10:54 GMT
I don't celebrate Christmas, i celebrate the sun
Praise the Sun
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Feb 15, 2024 2:22:41 GMT
Hypocritical isnt it?
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jimmyboy
Sophomore
@jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Feb 18, 2024 5:34:34 GMT
What about socialists?
Commies wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have Stalin or Putin.
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