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Post by thisguy4000 on Jan 21, 2024 1:08:42 GMT
I didn’t like the take. As I explicitly said, I’ve gained a new appreciation for it in the past few years. I’ve also recently formed the opinion that BvS (Ultimate Edition) is the best movie of the ‘Snyderverse’ trilogy. It’s definitely a step up from MoS, which I would say is the weakest. And yes, I have seen The Social Network. It’s not exactly an obscure movie. My initial disappointment with Eisenberg’s Lex was because I was hoping he would play the role more as cold and detached, but the antics of certain real life billionaires have made me realize that Eisenberg’s performance was ahead of its time. I also don’t see how he’s “Joker esque.” The most Joker thing about him is that his hair looks like Heath Ledger’s. Me implying you liked BvS was something I recall also used to annoy you. Whether I recognized something in your postings you perhaps weren't ready to admit to yourself and others, or it's a genuine coincidence (which I'm not ruling out, mind you) and you only came around to them later, I just thought it was funny we have an explicitly (heyyy) antagonistic relationship based on me accusing you of secretly liking things you would now openly like. Well, as I said, it's the "weird, manic energy". The character is always sputtering or giggling about something and generally comes across as whacky. I'm not really seeing the Musk comparison either, if I'm being honest. As far as real life people go, I know he's been oft compared to gross pervert/overgrown manchid/nepo baby Max Landis. That one I can kinda see from a personality standpoint, though it always seemed to assign Landis more impotance than he was worth that Snyder would base the villain of his 400 million dollar superhero crossover on the guy. But Eisenberg had worked with him, I suppose. As I recall, the “antagonistic relationship” had less to do with you “accusing me of secretly liking things I now openly like,” and more to do with our disagreements on things such as the notion that director’s cuts are inherently “non-canon,” or that Zack Snyder is some homophobic Ayn Rand fanboy. To be clear, I by no means think Zack Snyder is some all-time great filmmaker. I just take issue with all the unhinged personal attacks that nerds and bloggers like Devin Faraci and Max Landis have made against him over the years. Even the Ayn Rand talking point was something Devin Faraci spread based solely on the fact that Snyder said he wanted to adapt The Fountainhead, which is a book that Martin Scorsese is also a fan of. The idea that his DC movies are objectivist doesn’t even make sense, given that self-sacrifice is a recurring theme in them, which goes complete against what Ayn Rand believed in. The man has received a baffling amount of hatred and vitriol over the years solely because his capeshit rubbed gatekeeping nerds the wrong way, which culminated to the point where people celebrated his departure from JL and mocked the death of his daughter. Please don’t interpret this as me wanting to restart those annoying feuds we had in the past. I would really rather not do that. I just figured since you reminded me of them, I might as well try and clarify things once and for all. Believe it or not, it is possible to defend Zack Snyder as a person without believing that he’s God’s gift to cinema. Still, if you want to call me a Zack Snyder fan, I won’t bother trying to dispute it at this point. I do have a certain admiration for his style, even if I don’t think the stuff he makes is high art. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2024 2:40:03 GMT
Me implying you liked BvS was something I recall also used to annoy you. Whether I recognized something in your postings you perhaps weren't ready to admit to yourself and others, or it's a genuine coincidence (which I'm not ruling out, mind you) and you only came around to them later, I just thought it was funny we have an explicitly (heyyy) antagonistic relationship based on me accusing you of secretly liking things you would now openly like. Well, as I said, it's the "weird, manic energy". The character is always sputtering or giggling about something and generally comes across as whacky. I'm not really seeing the Musk comparison either, if I'm being honest. As far as real life people go, I know he's been oft compared to gross pervert/overgrown manchid/nepo baby Max Landis. That one I can kinda see from a personality standpoint, though it always seemed to assign Landis more impotance than he was worth that Snyder would base the villain of his 400 million dollar superhero crossover on the guy. But Eisenberg had worked with him, I suppose. As I recall, the “antagonistic relationship” had less to do with you “accusing me of secretly liking things I now openly like,” and more to do with our disagreements on things such as the notion that director’s cuts are inherently “non-canon,” or that Zack Snyder is some homophobic Ayn Rand fanboy. To be clear, I by no means think Zack Snyder is some all-time great filmmaker. I just take issue with all the unhinged personal attacks that nerds and bloggers like Devin Faraci and Max Landis have made against him over the years. Even the Ayn Rand talking point was something Devin Faraci spread based solely on the fact that Snyder said he wanted to adapt The Fountainhead, which is a book that Martin Scorsese is also a fan of. The idea that his DC movies are objectivist doesn’t even make sense, given that self-sacrifice is a recurring theme in them, which goes complete against what Ayn Rand believed in. The man has received a baffling amount of hatred and vitriol over the years solely because his capeshit rubbed gatekeeping nerds the wrong way, which culminated to the point where people celebrated his departure from JL and mocked the death of his daughter. Please don’t interpret this as me wanting to restart those annoying feuds we had in the past. I would really rather not do that. I just figured since you reminded me of them, I might as well try and clarify things once and for all. Believe it or not, it is possible to defend Zack Snyder as a person without believing that he’s God’s gift to cinema. Still, if you want to call me a Zack Snyder fan, I won’t bother trying to dispute it at this point. I do have a certain admiration for his style, even if I don’t think the stuff he makes is high art. Can I get a source on Scorsese? But yeah, I don't think it's a huge reach to assume someone is a fan of an author if they want to adapt said author's work, unless he had something like Verhoeven's Starship Troopers in mind. It was also things like sanding over the edges of Rorschach (the objectivist parody) in Watchmen, and a lot of Ma and Pa Kent's speeches including the infamous "maybe" exchange. The whole political debate around Snyder was a two way street given he was getting propped up for the same reasons by right wing reactionary types like Geeks and Gamers, at least until he publicly dioswned them and accused them of fostering racial violence. That was also the moment that turned me around on Snyder and while I still dont like him much as a director, I like him okay as a person. I also want the record to show that I never mocked his daughter's death and didn't celebrate his departure from JL for that reason. Batman and Superman are symbols of hope and justice for children, and he made them callous, hateful murderers. If disliking that is gatekeeping, then I guess I'm guilty. But I stand by thinking his early movies had, for lack of a better word, problematic portrayals of gay people. I think it'd be pretty wild to say 300 *isn't* a homophobic movie, especially when you factor in the fascist nutjob who wrote it, and I'm someone who actually enjoys 300 as dumb fun. It's obvious now Snyder is more or less a Trump hating liberal, so maybe things changed since the 00s or maybe he wasn't aware of what he was doing at the time. I forgot our debate about how canonical DCs are. I don't think I even have a solid answer for that anymore. |
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Post by thisguy4000 on Jan 21, 2024 3:25:59 GMT
As I recall, the “antagonistic relationship” had less to do with you “accusing me of secretly liking things I now openly like,” and more to do with our disagreements on things such as the notion that director’s cuts are inherently “non-canon,” or that Zack Snyder is some homophobic Ayn Rand fanboy. To be clear, I by no means think Zack Snyder is some all-time great filmmaker. I just take issue with all the unhinged personal attacks that nerds and bloggers like Devin Faraci and Max Landis have made against him over the years. Even the Ayn Rand talking point was something Devin Faraci spread based solely on the fact that Snyder said he wanted to adapt The Fountainhead, which is a book that Martin Scorsese is also a fan of. The idea that his DC movies are objectivist doesn’t even make sense, given that self-sacrifice is a recurring theme in them, which goes complete against what Ayn Rand believed in. The man has received a baffling amount of hatred and vitriol over the years solely because his capeshit rubbed gatekeeping nerds the wrong way, which culminated to the point where people celebrated his departure from JL and mocked the death of his daughter. Please don’t interpret this as me wanting to restart those annoying feuds we had in the past. I would really rather not do that. I just figured since you reminded me of them, I might as well try and clarify things once and for all. Believe it or not, it is possible to defend Zack Snyder as a person without believing that he’s God’s gift to cinema. Still, if you want to call me a Zack Snyder fan, I won’t bother trying to dispute it at this point. I do have a certain admiration for his style, even if I don’t think the stuff he makes is high art. Can I get a source on Scorsese? But yeah, I don't think it's a huge reach to assume someone is a fan of an author if they want to adapt said author's work, unless he had something like Verhoeven's Starship Troopers in mind. It was also things like sanding over the edges of Rorschach (the objectivist parody) in Watchmen, and a lot of Ma and Pa Kent's speeches including the infamous "maybe" exchange. The whole political debate around Snyder was a two way street given he was getting propped up for the same reasons by right wing reactionary types like Geeks and Gamers, at least until he publicly dioswned them and accused them of fostering racial violence. That was also the moment that turned me around on Snyder and while I still dont like him much as a director, I like him okay as a person. I also want the record to show that I never mocked his daughter's death and didn't celebrate his departure from JL for that reason. Batman and Superman are symbols of hope and justice for children, and he made them callous, hateful murderers. If disliking that is gatekeeping, then I guess I'm guilty. But I stand by thinking his early movies had, for lack of a better word, problematic portrayals of gay people. I think it'd be pretty wild to say 300 *isn't* a homophobic movie, especially when you factor in the fascist nutjob who wrote it, and I'm someone who actually enjoys 300 as dumb fun. It's obvious now Snyder is more or less a Trump hating liberal, so maybe things changed since the 00s or maybe he wasn't aware of what he was doing at the time. I forgot our debate about how canonical DCs are. I don't think I even have a solid answer for that anymore. Snyder has said that he doesn’t agree with Ayn Rand’s philosophies, and that he thinks she drank her own kool-aid. He said he enjoys the The Fountainhead because of what it has to say about artists. It doesn’t mean he agrees with her views. I also can’t say I agree with the idea that he made Jonathan Kent an objectivist. Regardless of how you feel about the way the character was written, his reasoning for why Clark should keep his powers a secret wasn’t because he believes he shouldn’t bother saving people, but because he thought the world wasn’t ready to know the truth. It wasn’t “you should only use your powers for yourself,” it was “if the world finds out who you are before they’re ready, they’ll kill you.” The man chose to let himself die in order to preserve Clark’s secret, and he risked his life to save a dog in the first place. You could argue that the scene is stupid, but I don’t see anything Randian about it. As for Rorschach, I mean, he’s still portrayed as a creepy, dirty, socially inept, and sexually repressed weirdo who eats cold beans right out of the can and freaks out when he loses his mask like in the comics. I don’t think Snyder was trying to glorify the character. Obviously a bunch of people got the wrong idea and thought the character was meant to be seen as a badass, but that was a problem even before the film adaptation. Hell, there are idiots who think Homelander is a cool guy. Regarding 300, I do certainly get the accusations that the movie is problematic, but for what it’s worth, Snyder has stated he doesn’t see the Spartans as the good guys. The movie is told through the perspective of a Spartan general, so it’s literally in-universe propaganda, and even then, the Spartans are show killing their own babies for not being perfect specimens. The whole movie is also notoriously homoerotic, not just from Xerxes, but among the Spartans as well, which was most likely intentional, especially since Snyder wanted to make a 300 sequel that was a gay love story. Mind you, I never read the 300 comic, so I don’t know how much of the movie is in the comics, but I think it’s fair to assume that Snyder’s politics aren’t really all that similar to Frank Miller. Hell, Batman’s arc in BvS is an unsubtle allegory for the western response to 9/11, which the movie very much frames as a bad thing. Bruce Wayne quoting Dick Cheney is meant to show how much he’s been consumed by hatred and xenophobia. Batman is certainly a hateful and violent person in BvS, but the movie doesn’t endorse it. It calls him out on it. Him branding people is seen as a bad thing in-universe, and Justice League makes a point of showing how much he’s changed. In terms of Martin Scorsese liking The Fountainhead, I admit that I can’t find a direct quote from him about it, so perhaps that wasn’t the best example to cite. For what it’s worth, people have described The Aviator as an objectivist movie and have even compared it to The Fountainhead specifically, so there’s that. I suppose a better example of a left-leaning celebrity who’s a fan of the book would be Brie Larson. To be clear, I never accused you of mocking Snyder’s family tragedy. Ive certainly never seen you do anything resembling that. I’ve just seen other people do that. As for him getting prepped up by idiots like Geeks + Gamers, I’m pretty sure that was less because they were genuine fans of his work, and more because they noticed that a lot of supposed left-leaning Internet personalities had a passionate hatred for his work, and accused him of being a fascist, so these right-wing chuds assumed that must’ve meant that Snyder was one of them. That mostly seems gone at this point. A lot of these people have actually accused Rebel Moon of being woke. Anyway, I think I’ve said everything I could possibly say on the subject. I’m by no means trying to change your mind about Snyder’s DC movies. If you and a lot of other people don’t like BvS, you don’t like it. That’s fine. My issue has always been more at the people who use their dislike for these movies as an excuse to call Snyder a fascist who hates women and minorities. |
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Post by transfuged on Jan 21, 2024 11:56:29 GMT
Mocking familly lament is à horrid thing if true.
That is a behavior which belonged with characters of the greek mythology.
Funny but Zod behaves their way. (Not Mr Snyder’s tormentors, myths)
According to his notion of familly law, a crime was commited and he follows the perpetrator (baby kal), tries to make him mad threatening (wow, the voice job is astounding - when zod delivers is ultimatum via commlink to earth) mobbing, torturing, but the character is only à referrence for Batman in the following movie. He dies, for some time, not doing justice to earth books of law.
When his possessions and employees are destroyed and killed in the time Zod is going after kal el, Bruce Wayne seeks revenge on both kal and zod.
That is not justice but retribution.
Appealing to familly memory he stops attacking kal, who is not guilty of familly crime in terran books of familly law.
According to those books, though, zod commited a familly crime. Jor El was technically his brother and he killed him.
Zod dies again. So does Kal, son of jor.
But what about Wayne’s purpose ? Was it retribution or justice ?
In justice league the common good / order is disturbed by a character who lost something in the past and is seeking it and the restoration of the being’s pride. As the boxes are linked with Darkseid in the comics there is a high probability of a remote familly crime.
The being does not succèed and à league is created against him.
Are they juges or do they behave in the same way as zod ?
Lois is the key indeed. She’s a refference to Kent’s past, his foster mother was the world of his foster father. Euphemism for familly ties. Here’s the familly reference in justice league.
Superman is ”tamed” , typical change of the mythical characters.
But isn’t war a revenge over the opponent ? Steppenwolf dies.
If one reads the story and compare it to myths, the change matter depends on the audience’s notion of justice.
Mr Snyder or the writer took a risk not being clear on that. The price of that shadow or almost darkness might be the violence that followed.
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Post by Archelaus on Jan 21, 2024 20:05:14 GMT
Great:
General Zod, Man of Steel
Doctor Sivana, Shazam!
Okay:
Steppenwolf, Zack Snyder's Justice League
Orm/Ocean Master, Aquaman
Black Manta, Aquaman (haven't seen the second one)
Ares, Wonder Woman
Maxwell Lord, Wonder Woman 1984
Dark Flash, The Flash
Bad:
Steppenwolf, Justice League (Theatrical Cut)
Kalypso, Shazam! Fury of the Gods
Lex Luthor, Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
Cheetah, Wonder Woman 1984
The Joker, Suicide Squad
Doomsday, Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
Enchantress, Suicide Squad
Sabbac, Black Adam
I haven't seen Blue Beetle or Aquaman and the Lost Kingdom yet. I never bothered with Birds of Prey or The Suicide Squad.
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Post by Roberto on Jan 24, 2024 14:51:21 GMT
Still gotta see the last few entries, but I think Zod was the best, and Suicide Squad's Joker was the worst. Laughably bad. Enchantress was also pretty lame and forgettable. The rest were okay I guess.
I didn't know Amanda Waller was considered a villain.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2024 0:17:58 GMT
Can I get a source on Scorsese? But yeah, I don't think it's a huge reach to assume someone is a fan of an author if they want to adapt said author's work, unless he had something like Verhoeven's Starship Troopers in mind. It was also things like sanding over the edges of Rorschach (the objectivist parody) in Watchmen, and a lot of Ma and Pa Kent's speeches including the infamous "maybe" exchange. The whole political debate around Snyder was a two way street given he was getting propped up for the same reasons by right wing reactionary types like Geeks and Gamers, at least until he publicly dioswned them and accused them of fostering racial violence. That was also the moment that turned me around on Snyder and while I still dont like him much as a director, I like him okay as a person. I also want the record to show that I never mocked his daughter's death and didn't celebrate his departure from JL for that reason. Batman and Superman are symbols of hope and justice for children, and he made them callous, hateful murderers. If disliking that is gatekeeping, then I guess I'm guilty. But I stand by thinking his early movies had, for lack of a better word, problematic portrayals of gay people. I think it'd be pretty wild to say 300 *isn't* a homophobic movie, especially when you factor in the fascist nutjob who wrote it, and I'm someone who actually enjoys 300 as dumb fun. It's obvious now Snyder is more or less a Trump hating liberal, so maybe things changed since the 00s or maybe he wasn't aware of what he was doing at the time. I forgot our debate about how canonical DCs are. I don't think I even have a solid answer for that anymore. Snyder has said that he doesn’t agree with Ayn Rand’s philosophies, and that he thinks she drank her own kool-aid. He said he enjoys the The Fountainhead because of what it has to say about artists. It doesn’t mean he agrees with her views. I also can’t say I agree with the idea that he made Jonathan Kent an objectivist. Regardless of how you feel about the way the character was written, his reasoning for why Clark should keep his powers a secret wasn’t because he believes he shouldn’t bother saving people, but because he thought the world wasn’t ready to know the truth. It wasn’t “you should only use your powers for yourself,” it was “if the world finds out who you are before they’re ready, they’ll kill you.” The man chose to let himself die in order to preserve Clark’s secret, and he risked his life to save a dog in the first place. You could argue that the scene is stupid, but I don’t see anything Randian about it. As for Rorschach, I mean, he’s still portrayed as a creepy, dirty, socially inept, and sexually repressed weirdo who eats cold beans right out of the can and freaks out when he loses his mask like in the comics. I don’t think Snyder was trying to glorify the character. Obviously a bunch of people got the wrong idea and thought the character was meant to be seen as a badass, but that was a problem even before the film adaptation. Hell, there are idiots who think Homelander is a cool guy. Regarding 300, I do certainly get the accusations that the movie is problematic, but for what it’s worth, Snyder has stated he doesn’t see the Spartans as the good guys. The movie is told through the perspective of a Spartan general, so it’s literally in-universe propaganda, and even then, the Spartans are show killing their own babies for not being perfect specimens. The whole movie is also notoriously homoerotic, not just from Xerxes, but among the Spartans as well, which was most likely intentional, especially since Snyder wanted to make a 300 sequel that was a gay love story. Mind you, I never read the 300 comic, so I don’t know how much of the movie is in the comics, but I think it’s fair to assume that Snyder’s politics aren’t really all that similar to Frank Miller. Hell, Batman’s arc in BvS is an unsubtle allegory for the western response to 9/11, which the movie very much frames as a bad thing. Bruce Wayne quoting Dick Cheney is meant to show how much he’s been consumed by hatred and xenophobia. Batman is certainly a hateful and violent person in BvS, but the movie doesn’t endorse it. It calls him out on it. Him branding people is seen as a bad thing in-universe, and Justice League makes a point of showing how much he’s changed. In terms of Martin Scorsese liking The Fountainhead, I admit that I can’t find a direct quote from him about it, so perhaps that wasn’t the best example to cite. For what it’s worth, people have described The Aviator as an objectivist movie and have even compared it to The Fountainhead specifically, so there’s that. I suppose a better example of a left-leaning celebrity who’s a fan of the book would be Brie Larson. To be clear, I never accused you of mocking Snyder’s family tragedy. Ive certainly never seen you do anything resembling that. I’ve just seen other people do that. As for him getting prepped up by idiots like Geeks + Gamers, I’m pretty sure that was less because they were genuine fans of his work, and more because they noticed that a lot of supposed left-leaning Internet personalities had a passionate hatred for his work, and accused him of being a fascist, so these right-wing chuds assumed that must’ve meant t, look at the scene what Snyder was one of them. That mostly seems gone at this point. A lot of these people have actually accused Rebel Moon of being woke. Anyway, I think I’ve said everything I could possibly say on the subject. I’m by no means trying to change your mind about Snyder’s DC movies. If you and a lot of other people don’t like BvS, you don’t like it. That’s fine. My issue has always been more at the people who use their dislike for these movies as an excuse to call Snyder a fascist who hates women and minorities. Yes, the Rorschach/Pa Kent points are really thin and self-defeating, but when you combine them with wanting to adapt Rand and actually adapting 300 (and even stuff like toning down the anti-consumerist message of Dawn of the Dead), it made some kind of sense to me at the time that he was somewhere on the right/libertarian/objectivist spectrum. I've since taken an L on a lot my Snyder views. I still think he's a dodgy filmmaker, especially when it comes to conveying the points he's trying to make, but hearing him talk more has clarified a lot of things, especially with Watchmen. I've seen him more than once point out the irony of being tasked to do Superman after having evicerated superheroes and deconstructed the genre in WM. So there goes my belief that he didn't understand the comic or repurposed it to make it about cool guys in costumes doing cool stuff. Of course, because of his filmmaking tendencies, it still kinda FEELS like that. There was even a poster on here who dubbed himself "Triatian's Journal" in honor of Rorschach who thought it was an inspirational movie until reading the comic. Likewise, the dialogue in BvS wags its finger at Batman's antics, but he's thus far the most badass and entertaining thing about the movie. When his movies are just big and dumb with no overarching messages or characters pontificating big themes (ie Dawn, 300, and ZSJL) I think his style works better. But yeah, long story short, I widely misjudged the guy. Sidenotes: 300 is extremely close to the comic, I think Aviator as an objectivist movie is a reach (the main focus is on Howard Hughes being mentally ill), and the Brie Larson thing isn't susprising when you consider she also sold mililtary propaganda as feminism. But yes, I get that auteur-y artists might be drawn to that story. |
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