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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jan 29, 2024 17:42:29 GMT
Simple question - who is the better head coach? BB has been to 9 Super Bowls as a head coach and won 6 of them but hasn’t done squat without Tom Brady. Andy Reid is going to his 4th Super Bowl with the Chiefs and has won two so far. He took the Eagles to 4 straight NFC Championships, winning one but losing that Super Bowl to Belichick and Brady. I think Reid did more than BB with less, but some of that less was his own doing - not valuing WRs until TO, hitching his wagon to Donovan McNabb, his clock management, being carried by Jim Johnson’s masterful tenure as defensive coordinator. But just like BB with Brady, Reid hasn’t gotten any rings without Mahomes. So what say you?
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Post by klawrencio79 on Jan 29, 2024 18:44:53 GMT
I'm going with Belichick only because I look at Andy Reid and I think to myself, there's a guy who smells like feet.
Hey, we all have our reasons.
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Post by masterofallgoons on Jan 29, 2024 19:32:16 GMT
I'm going with Belichick only because I look at Andy Reid and I think to myself, there's a guy who smells like feet. Hey, we all have our reasons. That's Rex Ryan. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 29, 2024 19:37:33 GMT
Reid. His record across multiple franchises shows he can win no matter who the QB is. He's only ever had three losing seasons. Belichick had three losing seasons in the last four. In eleven seasons without Tom Brady as his starting QB, Belichick has three winning seasons, eight losing seasons, and 1 playoff win. Belichick's coaching tree is a shitshow, every one of them has been terrible as a coach in their own right.
The evidence doesn't lie, Belichick was a terrible head coach who Brady carried to six titles. People voting for Belichick can't even make an argument, so they just vote in the poll without adding commentary. At least klaw is honest with his reasoning.
I was actually going to make this comparison recently, Frank. But I wasn't sure if you were still pissed at Reid so I didn't want to stir shit up.
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jan 29, 2024 19:57:38 GMT
Reid. His record across multiple franchises shows he can win no matter who the QB is. He's only ever had three losing seasons. Belichick had three losing seasons in the last four. In eleven seasons without Tom Brady as his starting QB, Belichick has three winning seasons, eight losing seasons, and 1 playoff win. Belichick's coaching tree is a shitshow, every one of them has been terrible as a coach in their own right. The evidence doesn't lie, Belichick was a terrible head coach who Brady carried to six titles. People voting for Belichick can't even make an argument, so they just vote in the poll without adding commentary. At least klaw is honest with his reasoning. I was actually going to make this comparison recently, Frank. But I wasn't sure if you were still pissed at Reid so I didn't want to stir shit up. I’m definitely not the world’s biggest Reid fan, but personal hatred or not, facts are facts. For me it more like “Why couldn’t you do this here? Is it just Patrick Mahomes?” Although even though they got there this year it seems like some old Eagles tendencies have resurfaced, namely his WRs weren’t great if you don’t count Travis Kelce among them. One point you brought up that I forgot to mention - Reid’s coaching tree is in the conversation with Bill Walsh’s as being the best ever, especially if you consider the fact that Reid is in Mike Holmgren’s tree, and Holmgren is in Walsh’s. BB’s coaching tree is dogshit. McDaniels is an ok coordinator I guess, and I don’t count Vrabel as he only played under BB and didn’t coach under him. |
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Post by Marv on Jan 30, 2024 3:25:33 GMT
BB
Look, I’m not a BB fan. I’m from Pittsburgh so that should tell you all you need to know about my distaste for New England. However…I don’t subscribe to the notion that in those two decades of success BB was just window dressing and hogging up all the air. It really just feels like short term memory to me. If a coach is so insignificant to a teams success that he gets no credit for the best 20 year run in the NFLs history then we really are just splitting hairs and none of them truly matter.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 30, 2024 3:52:25 GMT
BB Look, I’m not a BB fan. I’m from Pittsburgh so that should tell you all you need to know about my distaste for New England. However…I don’t subscribe to the notion that in those two decades of success BB was just window dressing and hogging up all the air. It really just feels like short term memory to me. If a coach is so insignificant to a teams success that he gets no credit for the best 20 year run in the NFLs history then we really are just splitting hairs and none of them truly matter. Most of them don't. How do you explain BB's putrid record without Brady? It's weird that he just happened to turn into a genius when Brady became his starter, and immediately became a dunce again when Brady left. |
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Post by weststigersbob on Jan 30, 2024 4:59:20 GMT
As somewhat of an outsider looking in :
While BB’s success looks like it’s hitched to a very grandiose Brady looking wagon, no coach is winning anything without a solid all round team and BB did have many teams with some outstanding defensive units, good enough to win multiple super bowls. The argument that it was all Brady does overlook the other side of the ball.
Having said that, I think success at multiple franchises supersedes everything else, so I’m going for Reid…..
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 30, 2024 13:36:02 GMT
As somewhat of an outsider looking in : While BB’s success looks like it’s hitched to a very grandiose Brady looking wagon, no coach is winning anything without a solid all round team and BB did have many teams with some outstanding defensive units, good enough to win multiple super bowls. The argument that it was all Brady does overlook the other side of the ball. Having said that, I think success at multiple franchises supersedes everything else, so I’m going for Reid….. The Patriots made Super Bowl 46 with the worst statistical defense in the history of the NFL in the Super Bowl era. Brady has the most 4th qtr comebacks in history, which is strange for someone who always played with an elite defense. In his time in New England, Brady won 6 playoff games where his team allowed 28 points-- up to that point, no other QB had won more than two such games. The Patriots had a legitimately great defense in 2003, and still gave up 19 points in the 4th qtr alone of Super Bowl 38. And still won. Agreed, it wasn't all Brady. It was everyone who bought into the message. The Patriot Way. And they only did because Brady did. Belichick became head coach and went 5-11 in his first year with a QB who had gone to the pro bowl 3 times, and would go again immediately after being traded to Buffalo. Meanwhile, every time you took Brady out of the lineup for a season (2008 with season ending injury on opening day, 2020 after he left), Belichick suffered an immediate 5 game drop in the standings. The more time went by (especially after Brady left), the harder it was to see the value-add provided by Belichick. All of the cliches, all of the fun factoids about team turnover ratios and fewest penalties suddenly disappears. The team becomes an undisciplined mess under Belichick, without Brady there to hold them accountable. Danny Amendola said it best in the upcoming Patriots doc on Apple tv. "We worked for Bill, we played for Tom." That's leadership. That's how you win titles. Every player who scored a point for Tampa in SB 55 signed there after Brady. Gronk came out of retirement just to play with Brady again for Christ's sake. All Belichick could do is spend more money than any other team in free agency in 2021 to get to 10-7 and a playoff blowout loss where the Bills never punted. Some defense. It isn't a coincidence. Belichick was terrible in Cleveland, he was terrible when he first came to NE, and he was terrible when Brady left. This argument was more intriguing when Brady was still his QB, but now it's been established that Belichick is a lousy head coach. I have the numbers and actual game results to prove it. All anyone can do to support Belichick is say, "He was great though. He always had a great defense though. He's a genius." Even though the actual facts don't back up any of those claims. 87-101 without Tom Brady. Three winning seasons, eight losing seasons. Two playoff appearances, one playoff win. Belichick should be Reid's doordash driver. |
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Post by FrankSobotka1514 on Jan 30, 2024 14:46:34 GMT
As somewhat of an outsider looking in : While BB’s success looks like it’s hitched to a very grandiose Brady looking wagon, no coach is winning anything without a solid all round team and BB did have many teams with some outstanding defensive units, good enough to win multiple super bowls. The argument that it was all Brady does overlook the other side of the ball. Having said that, I think success at multiple franchises supersedes everything else, so I’m going for Reid….. The Patriots made Super Bowl 46 with the worst statistical defense in the history of the NFL in the Super Bowl era. Brady has the most 4th qtr comebacks in history, which is strange for someone who always played with an elite defense. In his time in New England, Brady won 6 playoff games where his team allowed 28 points-- up to that point, no other QB had won more than two such games. The Patriots had a legitimately great defense in 2003, and still gave up 19 points in the 4th qtr alone of Super Bowl 38. And still won. Agreed, it wasn't all Brady. It was everyone who bought into the message. The Patriot Way. And they only did because Brady did. Belichick became head coach and went 5-11 in his first year with a QB who had gone to the pro bowl 3 times, and would go again immediately after being traded to Buffalo. Meanwhile, every time you took Brady out of the lineup for a season (2008 with season ending injury on opening day, 2020 after he left), Belichick suffered an immediate 5 game drop in the standings. The more time went by (especially after Brady left), the harder it was to see the value-add provided by Belichick. All of the cliches, all of the fun factoids about team turnover ratios and fewest penalties suddenly disappears. The team becomes an undisciplined mess under Belichick, without Brady there to hold them accountable. Danny Amendola said it best in the upcoming Patriots doc on Apple tv. "We worked for Bill, we played for Tom." That's leadership. That's how you win titles. Every player who scored a point for Tampa in SB 55 signed there after Brady. Gronk came out of retirement just to play with Brady again for Christ's sake. All Belichick could do is spend more money than any other team in free agency in 2021 to get to 10-7 and a playoff blowout loss where the Bills never punted. Some defense. It isn't a coincidence. Belichick was terrible in Cleveland, he was terrible when he first came to NE, and he was terrible when Brady left. This argument was more intriguing when Brady was still his QB, but now it's been established that Belichick is a lousy head coach. I have the numbers and actual game results to prove it. All anyone can do to support Belichick is say, "He was great though. He always had a great defense though. He's a genius." Even though the actual facts don't back up any of those claims. 87-101 without Tom Brady. Three winning seasons, eight losing seasons. Two playoff appearances, one playoff win. Belichick should be Reid's doordash driver. Brady had one of the greatest Super Bowl performances ever and it was in a loss. Super Bowl 52. One strip sack was basically the difference in the outcome and they STILL had a chance to tie at the end. Belichick didn’t do much to help them in that game. |
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Post by Marv on Jan 30, 2024 21:02:51 GMT
BB Look, I’m not a BB fan. I’m from Pittsburgh so that should tell you all you need to know about my distaste for New England. However…I don’t subscribe to the notion that in those two decades of success BB was just window dressing and hogging up all the air. It really just feels like short term memory to me. If a coach is so insignificant to a teams success that he gets no credit for the best 20 year run in the NFLs history then we really are just splitting hairs and none of them truly matter. How do you explain BB's putrid record without Brady? It's weird that he just happened to turn into a genius when Brady became his starter, and immediately became a dunce again when Brady left. I'm fine with that. So long as we aren't patting Don Shula or Chuck Knoll on the ass and then turning around and saying Bill Walsh and Tom Landry didn't matter. As long as its consistent that rationale doesn't bother me. As for the rest...I can't. Or rather, don't think I really need to. We can both agree Tom Brady is great. Having Tom Brady was clearly more successful than not having Tom Brady. The only issue I have is that Brady didn't go to a different team and really prove that fact a lot sooner. By the time Brady left NE, BB was pushing 70. It doesn't surprise me to see BB struggling now, without a star qb at the helm. I know coaching isn't a toll on the body the same way playing is but I've got to believe that the closer anyone gets to retirement, the less theyre gonna fire on all cylinders. I don't think the past 4 years negates the previous 20...for any coach. |
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jan 30, 2024 21:07:17 GMT
Most of them don't. How do you explain BB's putrid record without Brady? It's weird that he just happened to turn into a genius when Brady became his starter, and immediately became a dunce again when Brady left. I'm fine with that. So long as we aren't patting Don Shula or Chuck Knoll on the ass and then turning around and saying Bill Walsh and Tom Landry didn't matter. As long as its consistent that rationale doesn't bother me. As for the rest...I can't. Or rather, don't think I really need to. We can both agree Tom Brady is great. Having Tom Brady was clearly more successful than not having Tom Brady. The only issue I have is that Brady didn't go to a different team and really prove that fact a lot sooner. By the time Brady left NE, BB was pushing 70. It doesn't surprise me to see BB struggling now, without a star qb at the helm. I know coaching isn't a toll on the body the same way playing is but I've got to believe that the closer anyone gets to retirement, the less theyre gonna fire on all cylinders. I don't think the past 4 years negates the previous 20...for any coach. The previous 20 were all Brady, it's been established. Belichick was a failure in Cleveland, he was a failure here in 2000, and he was a failure again as soon as Brady left. Hell of a coincidence. |
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Post by Marv on Jan 30, 2024 21:16:31 GMT
I'm fine with that. So long as we aren't patting Don Shula or Chuck Knoll on the ass and then turning around and saying Bill Walsh and Tom Landry didn't matter. As long as its consistent that rationale doesn't bother me. As for the rest...I can't. Or rather, don't think I really need to. We can both agree Tom Brady is great. Having Tom Brady was clearly more successful than not having Tom Brady. The only issue I have is that Brady didn't go to a different team and really prove that fact a lot sooner. By the time Brady left NE, BB was pushing 70. It doesn't surprise me to see BB struggling now, without a star qb at the helm. I know coaching isn't a toll on the body the same way playing is but I've got to believe that the closer anyone gets to retirement, the less theyre gonna fire on all cylinders. I don't think the past 4 years negates the previous 20...for any coach. The previous 20 were all Brady, it's been established. Belichick was a failure in Cleveland, he was a failure here in 2000, and he was a failure again as soon as Brady left. Hell of a coincidence. Agree to disagree I suppose. |
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Post by twothousandonemark on Feb 2, 2024 5:03:30 GMT
Andy Reid was a f'n choke artist meme before Mahomes strolled in, & he clocked himself out of a SB vs. Belichick, is mostly why I voted the latter.
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