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Post by runie on Jun 9, 2017 12:07:28 GMT
They really do seem to vote for the pragmatic (no change after change - which would mean shift back to pragmatic) vote every time.
where as the english are now showing they will vote for change all the time.
The Scots voted to stay in the UK and the EU - then the torries gained 29 seats man!!! just to stop indyref2 being talked about any more.
whereas the english despite being bullsh-ttted by the media for a year or so over corbyn still voted for him at 40% (700k less that torries) -
which is not giving the brexit negotiation a safe positioning.
It just seems like the scots want to be govenerned for most things by themselves( as they do) but need to always feel like they have some one looking after them - i think most are pragmatic enough to understand that whilst voting for the non westminster party (snp) never equated for leaving the UK - and voting to staY IN THE EU is not more beneficial than staying in the UK. But this time it could have meant it and snp had a huge loss to torry gain...
they clearly want both backing and protection.
But obviously clearly with that mandate if a huge tory bounce in the north(whilst a massive poll shift back to labour south) - they would stay in the uk by a huge margin if another indyref was called.
Sturgeon is now talking about the UK as one rather than pride of scotland - blah blah , and blaming May - thats fine - but at the same tone she also misunderstood her electorate completely and her constant indy rhetoric is killing the SNP's
the odds of torries gaining by that in scotland and losing in the uk is unfathomable. it also shows how different we feel.
Us English do feel more independent and confident- Scots don't.
Tory/DUP
this would be a strange one - NI at the centre stage in UK politics...... Albeit a unionist one. The problem is they are quite far right. they would of course want a very soft Irish border and want peace - whilst also clearly wanting there right to be british and to stay in the union - but they have some pretty dodgy feelings on climate change and there is some racism sentiment there as well.
the other option is
Tory/LD
how could that be possible unless the torys allowed another ref on the EU or after a deal with the EU? - which would make discussions chaos.. LD's would want a bad deal on purpose.
the most unlikly result would be all but torries coming together (including DUP) with Corbyn as lead - which i would kind of like but at the same time - there is too many confliction- brexit negotiations would go on for years and not be resolved untill another government,
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Post by MrFurious on Jun 9, 2017 12:52:02 GMT
I'm glad people are googling the DUP. Theyre right down there with Ukip
Hopefully it turns out good for the north anyway
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Post by runie on Jun 9, 2017 13:36:32 GMT
I put this here by mistake - feel free to check it out on politics -a lot of people are obviously finding out about DUP now. They actually seem worse than UKIP. but then UKIP do not really have political policys beyond that one objective. They blather on policy and contradicte and change funding by the second. The obviously catastrophically stupid policy that never changes is to cut Immigration to record lows - when we need staff . That is the biggest issue. We just can not do it.
Half our paramedics are Australian
a quarter of our nurses are EU.
farage is a very good speaker and a very good debater - He was a paid up puppet by Murdoch(my suspicion). I have stated on another thread i liked him in the EU debates. As his scepticism made a much broader and rounder EU and made the stupidest discussions known about.
EU needs opposition in EU parliament now the UK is going - the way Farage commanded himself. Just like any political party requires 2 wings. He should have just done his day job and made the EU better.
But it was just a career path(UKIP leader after selling oil or steel) for him and the UK voted him into the EU to spite the EU and because the UK didn't know what the EU was.. He happily took the pay and job, the irony he was very good for the EU.
I wonder who will have the balls to go up against Germany - Because whilst I know poland and Hungary have the will - they take from the EU pot. So they can not have the influence. PS : its what Germany wants - Geramny doesnt want this to look like/or BE a german only project.
The Uk in EU is a brilliant diplomatic situation - to keep a balanaced EU, get on trade , calm down integration, etc from a position of power (gdp the size of the smallext 20 member nations)- the problem is because of that - we felt out of the group, we were the ones with the opt outs , ewwe were negative , blah blah, and the europeans reacted to that, we reacted to that , and left.......
This wasnt about racism.
Yes racism was involved - but when you feel European first that notion can sway your vote even if you are racist. If you do not feel european - racist or not - forget about the vote. or vote against - Many said it was about being feeling British again - I argue - It was about not feeling European)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 15:02:21 GMT
farage is a very good speaker and a very good debater - He was a paid up puppet by Murdoch(my suspicion). I suspect it is a bit more sinister than that. A bit like Trump, the guy has never, ever criticised Russia. Despite Russia invading another European country, shooting a passenger plane out the sky, and Putin's critics mysteriously getting murdered on a routine basis. He has criticised pretty much every major world leader but Putin. In fact he went on record once as saying Putin is the political figure he admires most. If you are of the suspicious mind, like I am, sooner or later you start to question 'why?'. I will give Farage his dues though, he is an excellent speaker, one of the best in British politics if not the best (maybe Galloway pips him, it's a toss up). As for being a good debater, well he is good in the same way that Ronaldo is good at diving. I think it would be more appropriate to say he is a very good slippery debater, everytime I hear his arguments they are full of logical fallacies. In a way it is a curse that I spot logical fallacies fairly easily, because it drives me crazy. But it is effective. Probably the thing I admire most about Farage though, is his hard work and energy. I could not have done what he has done the past 20 years, not in a million years. But he is not an intellectual, not by a long shot. |
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Post by runie on Jun 9, 2017 15:16:08 GMT
yes but you know this is politics - if you are not a slippery debater - you don't win.
He of course will switch it. its politics to switch the question. How can he believe half the stuff he said about immigration and what the EU would give us when leaving? when challenged - you must switch it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 15:49:06 GMT
yes but you know this is politics - if you are not a slippery debater - you don't win. He of course will switch it. its politics to switch the question. How can he believe half the stuff he said about immigration and what the EU would give us when leaving? when challenged - you must switch it. I guess so, the way I look it at it though, is if you are having to regularly use slippery tactics in a debate, maybe you are actually backing the wrong horse. Although I do accept there are occasions when you have to evade answers when you are a politician, because whatever answer you give, you can't win. But I think that's a bit different. |
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Post by runie on Jun 9, 2017 15:56:14 GMT
And its why I rate Corbyn so much as he is a fish out of water - and its like a real victory - me and you have been supporting him for a year publicly on imdb and 9 in 10 would have called us mentalists for doing so due to the media nonsense they believed in.- Now 4 in 10 voted for him(maybe more if they didn't vote tactically for the torries).
Not many politicians are so straight forward, honest and determined - Ok he has to use some political speech - he has had to back down from trident - but if he becomes PM i am saw he will reduce the war heads.
I am not sure he will help me out personally - but I will still back him all the way.
Ok sorry there are other type of politicans
1. slippery fckers (Farage)
2. repeat repeat repeat (May)
3. Corbyn - possible as honest as you can be (you can not - NOT - compromise in all areas.)
4. mental (Trump)
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Post by bluerisk on Jun 9, 2017 16:31:51 GMT
They really do seem to vote for the pragmatic (no change after change - which would mean shift back to pragmatic) vote every time. where as the english are now showing they will vote for change all the time. The Scots voted to stay in the UK and the EU - then the torries gained 29 seats man!!! just to stop indyref2 being talked about any more. whereas the english despite being bullsh-ttted by the media for a year or so over corbyn still voted for him at 40% (700k less that torries) - which is not giving the brexit negotiation a safe positioning. It just seems like the scots want to be govenerned for most things by themselves( as they do) but need to always feel like they have some one looking after them - i think most are pragmatic enough to understand that whilst voting for the non westminster party (snp) never equated for leaving the UK - and voting to staY IN THE EU is not more beneficial than staying in the UK. But this time it could have meant it and snp had a huge loss to torry gain... they clearly want both backing and protection. But obviously clearly with that mandate if a huge tory bounce in the north(whilst a massive poll shift back to labour south) - they would stay in the uk by a huge margin if another indyref was called. Sturgeon is now talking about the UK as one rather than pride of scotland - blah blah , and blaming May - thats fine - but at the same tone she also misunderstood her electorate completely and her constant indy rhetoric is killing the SNP's the odds of torries gaining by that in scotland and losing in the uk is unfathomable. it also shows how different we feel. Us English do feel more independent and confident- Scots don't. Tory/DUP this would be a strange one - NI at the centre stage in UK politics...... Albeit a unionist one. The problem is they are quite far right. they would of course want a very soft Irish border and want peace - whilst also clearly wanting there right to be british and to stay in the union - but they have some pretty dodgy feelings on climate change and there is some racism sentiment there as well. the other option is Tory/LD how could that be possible unless the torys allowed another ref on the EU or after a deal with the EU? - which would make discussions chaos.. LD's would want a bad deal on purpose. the most unlikly result would be all but torries coming together (including DUP) with Corbyn as lead - which i would kind of like but at the same time - there is too many confliction- brexit negotiations would go on for years and not be resolved untill another government, Some pundits say May had only way to go and that is for a hard Brexit, but how will this work out with the DUP that wants a rather open border (in any aspect but peope especially) with Ireland? As for me, they could build a wall and keep these damn wildings aka Britons behind it just like in Game of Thrones. Uk = the land of always winter. |
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Post by runie on Jun 9, 2017 16:34:57 GMT
all want an open border bar Mainland European farmers Risk.
Britain really dont care -
i think the basis from both as long as the rest of the 27 agree(france, denmark are issues clearly)
is stop 1 in 10 trucks, 1 in 40 cars - quick check 10 miles before the border both sides..
so no official border
its only if the Farmers go nuts on this that it wont happen. The UK and cons and DUP want a very easy process.
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Post by runie on Jun 9, 2017 16:37:24 GMT
farmers will be worried about produce dumping into the continent from Ireland when the UK gets trade deals with much lower agricultural tariffs .
But Risk - this is something we all have to respect. ok. Yes some cheap meat/wine will get over - but it wont make a huge difference.. Better to keep peace. Peace comes first.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 20:16:07 GMT
And its why I rate Corbyn so much as he is a fish out of water - and its like a real victory - me and you have been supporting him for a year publicly on imdb and 9 in 10 would have called us mentalists for doing so due to the media nonsense they believed in.- Now 4 in 10 voted for him(maybe more if they didn't vote tactically for the torries). Not many politicians are so straight forward, honest and determined - Ok he has to use some political speech - he has had to back down from trident - but if he becomes PM i am saw he will reduce the war heads. I am not sure he will help me out personally - but I will still back him all the way. Ok sorry there are other type of politicans 1. slippery fckers (Farage) 2. repeat repeat repeat (May) 3. Corbyn - possible as honest as you can be (you can not - NOT - compromise in all areas.) 4. mental (Trump) Yes, I remember, I was furious with the Labour party at the time with what they were doing to him, was glad to have you as an ally when it seemed like everything was going against him. But you gotta stick by your man, I thought he had the most integrity in Westminster, and I still believe that, he is the only politician in Westminster that I trust. There are a lot of people in the Labour party who owe him a massive, massive apology today, in fact I still want all 180 of them out (those who voted in the no confidence motion), if they had any integrity they should have resigned before the election. |
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