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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 20, 2017 21:28:38 GMT
The point is YECers and Holocaust denisers are both essentially liars. This has already been explained to you. First of all I didn't think YECers were liers so why did you even put forward the analogy? You have not explained why Ken Ham can't just be fucking reatrded in stead of lieing. I alread expalined it to you, it's pretty much impossible to defend Creationism honestly, he has to lie and distort facts as was evident in the debate between him and Bill Nye.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 20, 2017 21:28:52 GMT
I will ask yiu again. Why can't he just be a fucking moron instead of a liar? Yiu? Whose that, your Chinese friend? I already explained to you why YECers are liars, they often claim there's no scientific evidence for evolution when that's obviously false. I'm not sure how I could possibly explain it more to you. If you're going to argue YECers aren't actualy liars and just gullible idiots, does that mean Holocasut Deniers aren't liars either? I think your just being delibaratly obtuse at this point. How do you get from saying something that is obviously false to them lieing? Again why can't the explanation just be that they are fucking stupid. It's not that hard.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 20, 2017 21:52:35 GMT
"something that is obviously false to them lieing" That is the same thing as lying, I really don't understand what you're getting at. I'm not denying many of them aren't simply ignorant, I conceded to that in a response to Smithjgs. To actually defend Creationism though, you pretty much have to lie. I guess what you're trying to say is because they don't actually believe they're lying it doesn't count as lying? Something like what Costnaza said: www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn_PSJsl0LQIf that's the case, then the same could be said about Holocaust Deniers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 22:36:59 GMT
Yes, I do see the difference. And I see that Ken Ham is engaged in the latter, and not the former. How do you know he is lying? Because his "mistakes" are repeatedly pointed out to him and he refuses to stop acting as though they are facts.
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Post by captainbryce on Jun 20, 2017 22:50:16 GMT
People shouldn't have jobs in an institution dedicated to lying to the public. If they lose those jobs, good. So if people have a point of view you don't like they should lose their jobs? If their "point of view" is scientifically nonsensical and their intent is to make ignorant everyone who they are targeting and taking advantage of....yes....they should lose their jobs! Point of view is irrelevant. What matters is whether your job actually helps society or hurts it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 23:10:00 GMT
Here's an example of what I mean when I call Ken Ham a liar. During a Google Plus live chat Ham stated that he doesn’t “know where people get the idea that people rode dinosaurs.” He went on to say, “I mean, there’s no evidence in the Bible that that is so. I mean, when Job was looking at Behemoth, the description there, there’s nothing to do with people riding dinosaurs. We don’t know how people interacted with dinosaurs.” Well, the main reason the "people riding dinosaurs" idea exists is that Ken Ham promotes it. For example in his book "Dinosaurs of Eden: Tracing the Mystery Through History" : And his "museum", which contains this : Gee. So hard to imagine where that idea might have come from.
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Post by captainbryce on Jun 20, 2017 23:20:05 GMT
Here's an example of what I mean when I call Ken Ham a liar. During a Google Plus live chat Ham stated that he doesn’t “know where people get the idea that people rode dinosaurs.” He went on to say, “I mean, there’s no evidence in the Bible that that is so. I mean, when Job was looking at Behemoth, the description there, there’s nothing to do with people riding dinosaurs. We don’t know how people interacted with dinosaurs.” Well, the main reason the "people riding dinosaurs" idea exists is that Ken Ham promotes it. For example in his book "Dinosaurs of Eden: Tracing the Mystery Through History" : And his "museum", which contains this : Gee. So hard to imagine where that idea might have come from. Not to defend Ken Ham (because all proselytizing creationists are ultimately liars), but he does have a defense to this charge. Ken Ham, on "people riding dinosaurs"^Consider this...
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 20, 2017 23:32:29 GMT
I have no reason to make the assumption that Ken Hamm is willingly ignoring some aspects of evolutionary theory in order to dishonestly create his vision of the Noah account. He's not even obligated to accept evolutionary theory in the first place.
I'm saying that his vision of the Noah account was not started nor will it end with him and it's largely based on whatever his beliefs are.
It's odd to call him a liar regarding this when so many atheists are under the impression that Christians overall hate all things science anyway which doesn;t necessarily make them liars although I assume, as in Hamm's case, it makes them wrong.
"I have no reason to make the assumption that Ken Hamm is willingly ignoring some aspects of evolutionary theory in order to dishonestly create his vision of the Noah account."
Then you clearly don't know much about him. As far as I know he denies the fossil record, denies DNA evidence, denies dating methods, and denies probably a bunch of other science. Many consider him a creationist "expert" which basically means he has done at least some research on evolution, which means he is purposely dishonest in his position. You need further proof he's a habitual liar, watch the evolutionary "debate" between him and Bill Nye, he distorts truths and lies quite a bit.
Yet again, you are missing the point. I'm saying he may not be lying just because he denies these things. We already know that he is wrong, but so are a few million other people. That doesn't change the notion that the people going to the place haven't already drank the Kool Aid. In fact, it's ridiculously to think the museum even convinces anyone other than the convinced. I think theophobiacs can get into this notion of trapping certain religious people and really the atheists themselves own reasoning into thinking that they know what most of us believe and then condemn us as liars based on their assumption. They cast a pretty wide net of condemnation by the end of it which is pointless. This dudes activities hasn;t affected the attendance of a true museum or amusement park one iota. I think a person like Hamm is fair game to be ridiculed, but it's silly to progress it further than that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 23:41:59 GMT
That is not actually a defence. All he says is that "Other places have dinosaurs with saddles too and you aren't criticising them!" Well, first off he refers to "a museum" called "Dinozatorland". But Dinozatorland is not a museum, it is a theme park. Indeed the very brochure that he recreates on that blog page describes it as a theme park. But that's by the by, because it really doesn't matter what other museums do. My criticism was not "Ken Ham has dinosaurs with saddles, he's a liar because real dinosaurs never had saddles!" My criticism was "Ken Ham has dinosaurs with saddles... and then goes on to claim that he has no idea why that image exists in people's minds." It exists in people's minds because, in part at least, Ken Ham promotes that image. This is just one example. There are plenty of others. My personal favourite was an offhand claim I saw him make in a video about continental drift where he claimed "South America and Africa supposedly fit together. They don't, actually, scientists had to shrink Africa by 40% to make that claim." All he had to do to see that this is false is take ten seconds to check out any globe.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 20, 2017 23:49:44 GMT
"I think theophobiacs"
This has nothing to with "theophobiacs", this about accepting middle school science. I tried leaving religion out this, you decided to bring it in and try turn this into another atheist vs Christian argument, when it really should just be a science one. I'm really not sure why you're giving at least tepid defense of Ken ham (and YECers in general), they make you're camp look bad. You don't see me defending Bill Maher's antivaccer stupidity. And yes, Ham is a liar for the reasons I already explained to saoradh and the example Graham gave.
"I think a person like Hamm is fair game to be ridiculed, but it's silly to progress it further than that."
He writes books, been on TV, debated Bill Nye, probably has quite a bit of money. You act like he's some crazy homeless guy on the street corner, when he actually has quite a bit of influence, nothing "silly" about that.
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 20, 2017 23:51:00 GMT
tpfkar Your posts don't generally do anything to lessen the "insincere" tag. However, this word is no big deal. It took me forever to find it after being chastised for using the h-word.
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 21, 2017 8:33:43 GMT
"something that is obviously false to them lieing" That is the same thing as lying, I really don't understand what you're getting at. I'm not denying many of them aren't simply ignorant, I conceded to that in a response to Smithjgs. To actually defend Creationism though, you pretty much have to lie. I guess what you're trying to say is because they don't actually believe they're lying it doesn't count as lying? Something like what Costnaza said: www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn_PSJsl0LQIf that's the case, then the same could be said about Holocaust Deniers. By that logic I should think you are lieing. Humans are like boxes. There are inputs and processes that create outputs. Some peoples boxes are very broken and create crazy outputs. Ham is just extremely close minded, incredulous and possibly an example of a defence mechanism called rationalisation which is widely observed in psychology. Ham shows no signs of the typical liar he has always seemed quite sincere to me. Do you think Erjen is a liar? What possible reason would he have to lie.
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 21, 2017 8:35:33 GMT
How do you know he is lying? Because his "mistakes" are repeatedly pointed out to him and he refuses to stop acting as though they are facts. You mean like you in this thread? Or from your point of view me in this thread? Am I a liar?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 10:49:44 GMT
Because his "mistakes" are repeatedly pointed out to him and he refuses to stop acting as though they are facts. You mean like you in this thread? What mistake of mine has been pointed out?
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 21, 2017 11:07:06 GMT
Because his "mistakes" are repeatedly pointed out to him and he refuses to stop acting as though they are facts. You mean like you in this thread? Or from your point of view me in this thread? Am I a liar? Does it matter? Just think of any situation were someone's mistakes have been pointed out and they dismiss them. Do you think Erjen is a liar with regards to YEC?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 11:37:21 GMT
You mean like you in this thread? Or from your point of view me in this thread? Am I a liar? Does it matter? So none, then? Here's the point : sure, a person can be mistaken and not lying. I don't think Ken Ham is that. In fact I don't think most "professional creationists" are. Creationists fall into three camps. Those who haven't put any thought into it other than to believe the bible and leave it at that, which is probably most of them. Those who have put thought and time into it, but have misunderstood the facts. Which is probably a sizeable minority. And then there are the professional creationists. Those who write books, give talks, sell videos, etc. I don't accept that it is possible to do these things whilst simply being wrong. It takes a deliberate effort to continue to be a creationist when you're doing all that, especially when people are repeatedly showing you how you're wrong and you're ignoring them and/or misrepresenting them. So in short, fuck Ken Ham and people like him. No, they're not wrong. No, they're not people who disagree. They're professional liars, con artists whose chosen job is to bilk the faithful. Seriously fuck those people. If you disagree, fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree. 'nuff said.
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Post by dividavi on Jun 21, 2017 11:51:33 GMT
You mean like you in this thread? Or from your point of view me in this thread? Am I a liar? Does it matter? Just think of any situation were someone's mistakes have been pointed out and they dismiss them. Do you think Erjen is a liar with regards to YEC? The way you post makes it difficult to tell what you're responding to. Your question, "Does it matter?" seems to be a response to Graham's question, "What mistake of mine has been pointed out?" And yes it does matter. Ken Ham is a demonstrated liar and I'll accept that Graham has integrity and knows what he's talking about. To your question, "Am I a liar?" my answer is yes you are. Graham has fully explained why he considers Ken Ham a liar despite your stance that he (Graham) hasn't shown proof or evidence to that effect.
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 21, 2017 12:16:34 GMT
So none, then? Here's the point : sure, a person can be mistaken and not lying. I don't think Ken Ham is that. In fact I don't think most "professional creationists" are. Creationists fall into three camps. Those who haven't put any thought into it other than to believe the bible and leave it at that, which is probably most of them. Those who have put thought and time into it, but have misunderstood the facts. Which is probably a sizeable minority. And then there are the professional creationists. Those who write books, give talks, sell videos, etc. I don't accept that it is possible to do these things whilst simply being wrong. It takes a deliberate effort to continue to be a creationist when you're doing all that, especially when people are repeatedly showing you how you're wrong and you're ignoring them and/or misrepresenting them. So in short, fuck Ken Ham and people like him. No, they're not wrong. No, they're not people who disagree. They're professional liars, con artists whose chosen job is to bilk the faithful. Seriously fuck those people. If you disagree, fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree. 'nuff said. "Professional creationists" fall into the category of "Those who have put thought and time into it, but have misunderstood the facts.". You have no evidence that they just aren't stupid. You just keep repeating the premise (they deny something that is obviously false) without giving a rationale as to how that implies that he is lieing. If I am wrong about this prove me wrong and quote yourself where you did. Again Ken Ham shows no sign of the typical liar, if he is acting he is some actor. What about people who have been to Ken Ham's debates and listenedto his critics (as many YECs have)? Why would they lie? What do they stand to gain?
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 21, 2017 12:18:03 GMT
Does it matter? Just think of any situation were someone's mistakes have been pointed out and they dismiss them. Do you think Erjen is a liar with regards to YEC? The way you post makes it difficult to tell what you're responding to. Your question, "Does it matter?" seems to be a response to Graham's question, "What mistake of mine has been pointed out?" And yes it does matter. Ken Ham is a demonstrated liar and I'll accept that Graham has integrity and knows what he's talking about. To your question, "Am I a liar?" my answer is yes you are. Graham has fully explained why he considers Ken Ham a liar despite your stance that he (Graham) hasn't shown proof or evidence to that effect. There is something fucking wrong with you if you think anybody that disagrees with something obvious is a liar
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Post by faustus5 on Jun 21, 2017 12:29:22 GMT
Here is what matters: Ken Ham, by spreading falsehoods about science, is doing harm to the public. It doesn't matter how sincere he is. It doesn't matter what his collaborators believe. What matters is what they are doing. So please, spare us your pathetic tears over people at the museum potentially losing their jobs. Do you clutch your pearls at the thought of cigarette factory workers losing their jobs?
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