PanLeo
Sophomore
@saoradh
Posts: 919
Likes: 53
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 21, 2017 12:32:22 GMT
Here is what matters: Ken Ham, by spreading falsehoods about science, is doing harm to the public. It doesn't matter how sincere he is. It doesn't matter what his collaborators believe. What matters is what they are doing. So please, spare us your pathetic tears over people at the museum potentially losing their jobs. Do you clutch your pearls at the thought of cigarette factory workers losing their jobs? Aren't you a socialist? When did you suddenly become so anti-worker? If the museum causes no physical or emotional harm then I have no problem with it.
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Post by faustus5 on Jun 21, 2017 12:58:42 GMT
Aren't you a socialist? When did you suddenly become so anti-worker? If the museum causes no physical or emotional harm then I have no problem with it. I'm not anti-worker, idiot, I'm just against any enterprise that spreads falsehoods about science, and I have no sympathy for any moron who propagates such falsehoods. Apparently you have no intellectual standards whatsoever.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 21, 2017 13:21:40 GMT
So none, then? Here's the point : sure, a person can be mistaken and not lying. I don't think Ken Ham is that. In fact I don't think most "professional creationists" are. Creationists fall into three camps. Those who haven't put any thought into it other than to believe the bible and leave it at that, which is probably most of them. Those who have put thought and time into it, but have misunderstood the facts. Which is probably a sizeable minority. And then there are the professional creationists. Those who write books, give talks, sell videos, etc. I don't accept that it is possible to do these things whilst simply being wrong. It takes a deliberate effort to continue to be a creationist when you're doing all that, especially when people are repeatedly showing you how you're wrong and you're ignoring them and/or misrepresenting them. So in short, fuck Ken Ham and people like him. No, they're not wrong. No, they're not people who disagree. They're professional liars, con artists whose chosen job is to bilk the faithful. Seriously fuck those people. If you disagree, fine. We'll just have to agree to disagree. 'nuff said. "Professional creationists" fall into the category of "Those who have put thought and time into it, but have misunderstood the facts.". You have no evidence that they just aren't stupid. You just keep repeating the premise (they deny something that is obviously false) without giving a rationale as to how that implies that he is lieing. If I am wrong about this prove me wrong and quote yourself where you did. Again Ken Ham shows no sign of the typical liar, if he is acting he is some actor. What about people who have been to Ken Ham's debates and listenedto his critics (as many YECs have)? Why would they lie? What do they stand to gain? "Why would they lie? What do they stand to gain?" There's quite a bit of money in hucking nonsense. "Professional" creationist Kent Hovind acyually went to jail for tax evasion on millions of dollars.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 21, 2017 13:43:52 GMT
"something that is obviously false to them lieing" That is the same thing as lying, I really don't understand what you're getting at. I'm not denying many of them aren't simply ignorant, I conceded to that in a response to Smithjgs. To actually defend Creationism though, you pretty much have to lie. I guess what you're trying to say is because they don't actually believe they're lying it doesn't count as lying? Something like what Costnaza said: www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn_PSJsl0LQIf that's the case, then the same could be said about Holocaust Deniers. By that logic I should think you are lieing. Humans are like boxes. There are inputs and processes that create outputs. Some peoples boxes are very broken and create crazy outputs. Ham is just extremely close minded, incredulous and possibly an example of a defence mechanism called rationalisation which is widely observed in psychology. Ham shows no signs of the typical liar he has always seemed quite sincere to me. Do you think Erjen is a liar? What possible reason would he have to lie. If you're gonna go by those standards, do you believe Holocaust Deniers aren't actually lying? I don't really know (or care) about Erjen, but people like Hovind, Comfort and Ham make their living from suckering people, so yes they have plenty of incentive to lie. If you're interested, this video better explains the dishonesty of Creationism: www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpeHrkbx9LU&t=128s
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PanLeo
Sophomore
@saoradh
Posts: 919
Likes: 53
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 21, 2017 14:05:31 GMT
"Professional creationists" fall into the category of "Those who have put thought and time into it, but have misunderstood the facts.". You have no evidence that they just aren't stupid. You just keep repeating the premise (they deny something that is obviously false) without giving a rationale as to how that implies that he is lieing. If I am wrong about this prove me wrong and quote yourself where you did. Again Ken Ham shows no sign of the typical liar, if he is acting he is some actor. What about people who have been to Ken Ham's debates and listenedto his critics (as many YECs have)? Why would they lie? What do they stand to gain? "Why would they lie? What do they stand to gain?" There's quite a bit of money in hucking nonsense. "Professional" creationist Kent Hovind acyually went to jail for tax evasion on millions of dollars. I am not talking about Professional creationists.
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PanLeo
Sophomore
@saoradh
Posts: 919
Likes: 53
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 21, 2017 14:06:55 GMT
Aren't you a socialist? When did you suddenly become so anti-worker? If the museum causes no physical or emotional harm then I have no problem with it. I'm not anti-worker, idiot, I'm just against any enterprise that spreads falsehoods about science, and I have no sympathy for any moron who propagates such falsehoods. Apparently you have no intellectual standards whatsoever. I just don't think museums that spout nonsense should close down for a number of reasons but most importantly, they provide jobs for people.
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Post by cupcakes on Jun 21, 2017 14:10:15 GMT
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 21, 2017 14:13:23 GMT
"Why would they lie? What do they stand to gain?" There's quite a bit of money in hucking nonsense. "Professional" creationist Kent Hovind acyually went to jail for tax evasion on millions of dollars. I am not talking about Professional creationists. Well we were talking about Ham, so "Professional" creationists are pretty much who I was referring to. Like I said, I don't think all of them are liars, just misinformed. The ones that make their living off of it pretty much do have to lie though.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 21, 2017 14:26:12 GMT
"Professional creationists" fall into the category of "Those who have put thought and time into it, but have misunderstood the facts.". You have no evidence that they just aren't stupid. You just keep repeating the premise (they deny something that is obviously false) without giving a rationale as to how that implies that he is lieing. If I am wrong about this prove me wrong and quote yourself where you did. Again Ken Ham shows no sign of the typical liar, if he is acting he is some actor. What about people who have been to Ken Ham's debates and listenedto his critics (as many YECs have)? Why would they lie? What do they stand to gain? "Why would they lie? What do they stand to gain?" There's quite a bit of money in hucking nonsense. "Professional" creationist Kent Hovind acyually went to jail for tax evasion on millions of dollars. Kind of apples and oranges since that dude was refusing to pay taxes.
Both the Ark & Creation Museum are for profit enterprises although the Ark one likely will have losses simply from the initial build as well as the low attendance.
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PanLeo
Sophomore
@saoradh
Posts: 919
Likes: 53
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 21, 2017 14:31:36 GMT
I am not talking about Professional creationists. Well we were talking about Ham, so "Professional" creationists are pretty much who I was referring to. Like I said, I don't think all of them are liars, just misinformed. The ones that make their living off of it pretty much do have to lie though. What about the ones who are followers of Ken Ham? Surely they have watch his debates online. Why would they lie?
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Post by faustus5 on Jun 21, 2017 14:35:54 GMT
I just don't think museums that spout nonsense should close down for a number of reasons but most importantly, they provide jobs for people. So does working in a cigarette factory. So does working for the KKK. Jobs that pay people to do bad things are not worth preserving.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 21, 2017 14:37:19 GMT
I just don't think museums that spout nonsense should close down for a number of reasons but most importantly, they provide jobs for people. So does working in a cigarette factory. So does working for the KKK. Jobs that pay people to do bad things are not worth preserving. Supply/demand economics is not the same thing as preservation.
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PanLeo
Sophomore
@saoradh
Posts: 919
Likes: 53
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 21, 2017 15:08:41 GMT
I just don't think museums that spout nonsense should close down for a number of reasons but most importantly, they provide jobs for people. So does working in a cigarette factory. So does working for the KKK. Jobs that pay people to do bad things are not worth preserving. I wouldn't call promoting YEC a bad thing, I would call it a stupid thing
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Post by faustus5 on Jun 21, 2017 15:19:09 GMT
I wouldn't call promoting YEC a bad thing, I would call it a stupid thing Then you don't have much in the way of ethics when it comes the the intellectual integrity of our culture.
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Post by theoncomingstorm on Jun 21, 2017 17:23:50 GMT
I wouldn't call promoting YEC a bad thing, I would call it a stupid thing Then you don't have much in the way of ethics when it comes the the intellectual integrity of our culture. Saoradh lacks ethics? Say it ain't so!
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vernuf
Sophomore
@vernuf
Posts: 310
Likes: 34
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Post by vernuf on Jun 21, 2017 18:31:02 GMT
You have my sympathy. Your thread has been effectively derailed by our very own paedo-troll who doesn't have 2 brain cells to rub together, just as he wanted. I was the voice of reason in this thread. I had to deal with morons who made terrible analogies and coukdnt explain why someone was liar instead of an idiot. Bull fucking shit you were and did.
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vernuf
Sophomore
@vernuf
Posts: 310
Likes: 34
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Post by vernuf on Jun 21, 2017 18:36:06 GMT
Here is what matters: Ken Ham, by spreading falsehoods about science, is doing harm to the public. It doesn't matter how sincere he is. It doesn't matter what his collaborators believe. What matters is what they are doing. So please, spare us your pathetic tears over people at the museum potentially losing their jobs. Do you clutch your pearls at the thought of cigarette factory workers losing their jobs? Aren't you a socialist? When did you suddenly become so anti-worker? If the museum causes no physical or emotional harm then I have no problem with it. Once more, you argue against things someone didn't actually say. You do know that's a form of lying, right?
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PanLeo
Sophomore
@saoradh
Posts: 919
Likes: 53
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 21, 2017 18:58:56 GMT
Aren't you a socialist? When did you suddenly become so anti-worker? If the museum causes no physical or emotional harm then I have no problem with it. Once more, you argue against things someone didn't actually say. You do know that's a form of lying, right? Ironic considering I never said he said anything.
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Post by lowtacks86 on Jun 21, 2017 20:00:50 GMT
"Why would they lie? What do they stand to gain?" There's quite a bit of money in hucking nonsense. "Professional" creationist Kent Hovind acyually went to jail for tax evasion on millions of dollars. Kind of apples and oranges since that dude was refusing to pay taxes.
Both the Ark & Creation Museum are for profit enterprises although the Ark one likely will have losses simply from the initial build as well as the low attendance.
I was refering to the money that's inviolved in selling creationism, not the lying he was doing about his taxes.
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Post by MooseNugget on Jun 26, 2017 21:32:21 GMT
Why are you happy about this? If it closes down people will lose their jobs. This museum got a huge government grant to help build it. The money shouldn't have been given to them to begin with. They are not giving the people a product they want to see. I'm not going to cry over people losing their job over this. They spreading falsehoods about the creation of our universe to try bridge accepted scientific facts and Christianity. The project was a failure and if I lived in Kentucky I'd ask my congressman why we gave those loonies money.
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