PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 21, 2017 22:10:47 GMT
define knowledge as justified true belief based on nondeceptive evidence? Deceptive being defined as where x suggests that y is true but y is not true. Wouldnt this exclude the fake barn, the job, the sheep and the pyromaniac Gettier cases from knowledge?
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 22, 2017 11:11:36 GMT
define knowledge as justified true belief based on nondeceptive evidence? Deceptive being defined as where x suggests that y is true but y is not true. Wouldnt this exclude the fake barn, the job, the sheep and the pyromaniac Gettier cases from knowledge? I don't think that solves the Gettier problem. Take the sheep example - The evidence is the dog that the farmer thinks is a sheep. But that is not deceptive evidence by your definition (where x suggests that y is true but y is not true): x (the dog dressed as a sheep) suggests that y (that there is a sheep in the field) is true. And y is true (there is indeed a sheep in the field). Therefore the evidence is non-deceptive. So Gettier's problem still stands even by your modified definition of knowledge.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 22, 2017 11:34:11 GMT
define knowledge as justified true belief based on nondeceptive evidence? Deceptive being defined as where x suggests that y is true but y is not true. Wouldnt this exclude the fake barn, the job, the sheep and the pyromaniac Gettier cases from knowledge? I don't think that solves the Gettier problem. Take the sheep example - The evidence is the dog that the farmer thinks is a sheep. But that is not deceptive evidence by your definition (where x suggests that y is true but y is not true): x (the dog dressed as a sheep) suggests that y (that there is a sheep in the field) is true. And y is true (there is indeed a sheep in the field). Therefore the evidence is non-deceptive. So Gettier's problem still stands even by your modified definition of knowledge. Seeing something that looks like a sheep from a distance suggests that what you are seeing is a sheep and so it is deceptive because we are actually seeing a dog. Same goes for the barn. Seeing something from the side of the road that appears to be a barn suggests what you are looking at is a real barn when in fact it is fake. In the case of the pyromaniac, the past reliability of the matches suggests the matches will work based on there own merit when in fact they dont, they only light because of Q radiation.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 22, 2017 12:32:32 GMT
Seeing something that looks like a sheep from a distance suggests that what you are seeing is a sheep and so it is deceptive because we are actually seeing a dog. Sure but the belief in question here is "there is a sheep in the field" not "the thing I am looking at right now is a sheep". "There is a sheep in the field" is a justified true belief and since the evidence led you to that belief, that evidence is not deceptive. Whereas "The thing I am looking at right now is a sheep" is not a true belief therefore it doesn't really matter if we add your caveat about non-deceptive evidence to the standard definition of knowledge. You could maybe combine the two. Something like "Knowledge is a true belief justified by other true beliefs". I think that would get round Gettier's sheep problem. But I don't think it works for something like the pyromaniac example. Here it is a true belief that these matches do generally light in normal circumstances. The belief was never that the matches were infallible but only that they are usually reliable. If we try to fix this by limiting our justifications to infallible justifications then we eliminate any knowledge via induction. Suddenly you can't be said to have known the sun will rise today because there was a small chance it might not.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 22, 2017 12:47:03 GMT
Seeing something that looks like a sheep from a distance suggests that what you are seeing is a sheep and so it is deceptive because we are actually seeing a dog. Sure but the belief in question here is "there is a sheep in the field" not "the thing I am looking at right now is a sheep". "There is a sheep in the field" is a justified true belief and since the evidence led you to that belief, that evidence is not deceptive. Whereas "The thing I am looking at right now is a sheep" is not a true belief therefore it doesn't really matter if we add your caveat about non-deceptive evidence to the standard definition of knowledge. You could maybe combine the two. Something like "Knowledge is a true belief justified by other true beliefs". I think that would get round Gettier's sheep problem. But I don't think it works for something like the pyromaniac example. Here it is a true belief that these matches do generally light in normal circumstances. The belief was never that the matches were infallible but only that they are usually reliable. If we try to fix this by limiting our justifications to infallible justifications then we eliminate any knowledge via induction. Suddenly you can't be said to have known the sun will rise today because there was a small chance it might not. The conclusion that there is a sheep in the field is based on the premise "I am looking at a sheep right now" which is not true. So while it is justified true belief it is not based on non-deceptive evidence. Well certainty is impossible. How do we know there is not an evil demon controling our thoughts and purposely making us have false beliefs? We can't. If certainty is a criteria for knowledge then knowledge is impossible for humans.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 22, 2017 13:01:18 GMT
The conclusion that there is a sheep in the field is based on the premise "I am looking at a sheep right now" which is not true. So while it is justified true belief it is not based on non-deceptive evidence. Yeah that's what I was getting at. I think that works for the sheep example but not for the pyromaniac one. The conclusion there is based on a true premise rather than a false premise ie "Sure-Fire matches usually light when the air is clear and the match is dry." While it is not true that the farmer is looking at a sheep, it is true that Sure-Fire matches are generally reliable. That this particular match was not (and only lit due to a fluke) does not make Sure-Fire matches as a whole unreliable. So the evidence is non-deceptive in that case.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 22, 2017 13:08:12 GMT
The conclusion that there is a sheep in the field is based on the premise "I am looking at a sheep right now" which is not true. So while it is justified true belief it is not based on non-deceptive evidence. Yeah that's what I was getting at. I think that works for the sheep example but not for the pyromaniac one. The conclusion there is based on a true premise rather than a false premise ie "Sure-Fire matches usually light when the air is clear and the match is dry." While it is not true that the farmer is looking at a sheep, it is true that Sure-Fire matches are generally reliable. That this particular match was not (and only lit due to a fluke) does not make Sure-Fire matches as a whole unreliable. So the evidence is non-deceptive in that case. Right but the conclusion was "they will light because it is clear and the match is dry". This is a justified belief but not true.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 22, 2017 14:15:03 GMT
Yeah that's what I was getting at. I think that works for the sheep example but not for the pyromaniac one. The conclusion there is based on a true premise rather than a false premise ie "Sure-Fire matches usually light when the air is clear and the match is dry." While it is not true that the farmer is looking at a sheep, it is true that Sure-Fire matches are generally reliable. That this particular match was not (and only lit due to a fluke) does not make Sure-Fire matches as a whole unreliable. So the evidence is non-deceptive in that case. Right but the conclusion was "they will light because it is clear and the match is dry". This is a justified belief but not true. Is that the conclusion though? The pyromaniac probably did consider it possible it might not light, just highly unlikely. His conclusion was therefore "the match will very probably light because it is dry and the air is clear" which is a justified true belief.
In fact the conclusion "they will light because it is clear and the match is dry" is not only not true but not justified either as it assumes the matches are infallible.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 22, 2017 14:58:31 GMT
Right but the conclusion was "they will light because it is clear and the match is dry". This is a justified belief but not true. Is that the conclusion though? The pyromaniac probably did consider it possible it might not light, just highly unlikely. His conclusion was therefore "the match will very probably light because it is dry and the air is clear" which is a justified true belief.
In fact the conclusion "they will light because it is clear and the match is dry" is not only not true but not justified either as it assumes the matches are infallible.
No because it didn't light because it was dry and clear, it lit because of Q radiation. How can that be true? He based his probability statement based on the assumption that the matches would work by their own merit and they didn't. Therefore there is deceptive evidence because we had no reason to believe they were not working properly.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 22, 2017 16:43:53 GMT
No because it didn't light because it was dry and clear, it lit because of Q radiation. How can that be true? It is true that in this instance the match would not have lit despite it being dry and clear, but it is also true that Sure-Fire matches usually do work when it is dry and clear. And that is what he justified his belief that they would work in this instance on.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 22, 2017 16:56:01 GMT
No because it didn't light because it was dry and clear, it lit because of Q radiation. How can that be true? It is true that in this instance the match would not have lit despite it being dry and clear, but it is also true that Sure-Fire matches usually do work when it is dry and clear. And that is what he justified his belief that they would work in this instance on. Syllogism 1 Premise: The matches have worked by their own merit multiple times before Conclusion: The matches will probably work based on their own merit
Syllogism 2 Premise: The matches will probably work on their merit Conclusion: The match will light
The premise in syllogism 1 suggests the conclusion is true when it isn't so the belief that the match will light is based on deceptive evidence.
I really don't understand why you dont get it. Maybe I am just obtuse.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 22, 2017 17:22:02 GMT
It is true that in this instance the match would not have lit despite it being dry and clear, but it is also true that Sure-Fire matches usually do work when it is dry and clear. And that is what he justified his belief that they would work in this instance on. Syllogism 1 Premise: The matches have worked by their own merit multiple times before Conclusion: The matches will probably work based on their own merit
Syllogism 2 Premise: The matches will probably work on their merit Conclusion: The match will light
The premise in syllogism 1 suggests the conclusion is true when it isn't so the belief that the match will light is based on deceptive evidence.
I really don't understand why you dont get it. Maybe I am just obtuse.
Where we're disagreeing here is I think Conclusion 1 is actually true. Even though this particular match did not light by its own merit, the pyromaniac was still correct to think it should have done based on his past experience. His evidence (his past experience of matches) still justifies his conclusion about the general reliability of that brand of matches. So you have a justified true belief jystifying another justified true belief.
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 22, 2017 17:32:26 GMT
Syllogism 1 Premise: The matches have worked by their own merit multiple times before Conclusion: The matches will probably work based on their own merit
Syllogism 2 Premise: The matches will probably work on their merit Conclusion: The match will light
The premise in syllogism 1 suggests the conclusion is true when it isn't so the belief that the match will light is based on deceptive evidence.
I really don't understand why you dont get it. Maybe I am just obtuse.
Where we're disagreeing here is I think Conclusion 1 is actually true. Even though this particular match did not light by its own merit, the pyromaniac was still correct to think it should have done based on his past experience. His evidence (his past experience of matches) still justifies his conclusion about the general reliability of that brand of matches. So you have a justified true belief jystifying another justified true belief. Ok well I guess I would agree that based on what the pyromaniac knew he was correct in saying the match will probably light based on its own merit. I will concede that. Although that is not what matters. Now as I already said, the probability assigned and it's conclusion are justified based on what the pyromaniac knew but that doesn't change the fact that the prediction made did not come true. Therefore y (past reliability) suggested that x (matches will work based on their own merit) is true when it isn't because as we know the prediction was false as Q radiation caused it to light. I think I have cleared this up now
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 22, 2017 19:40:45 GMT
Well let's take a different approach to try and show where I'm coming from. Suppose you enter the lottery and I say you won't win based on my knowledge of how statistically unlikely it is to win the lottery. You end up winning. I was wrong, no arguments there. But would you say the statistics had "deceived" me?
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 22, 2017 22:03:55 GMT
Well let's take a different approach to try and show where I'm coming from. Suppose you enter the lottery and I say you won't win based on my knowledge of how statistically unlikely it is to win the lottery. You end up winning. I was wrong, no arguments there. But would you say the statistics had "deceived" me? Yes. It was a justified false belief based on non-deceptive evidence. X (the probability) suggested Y (won't win the lottery) would turn out to be the case when it didn't.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 23, 2017 7:45:50 GMT
Yes. It was a justified false belief based on non-deceptive evidence. Do you mean deceptive rather than non-deceptive?
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PanLeo
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Post by PanLeo on Jun 23, 2017 8:31:10 GMT
Yes. It was a justified false belief based on non-deceptive evidence. Do you mean deceptive rather than non-deceptive? Yeah, my bad.
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