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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 4, 2017 5:00:53 GMT
Would there be a Muslim-ruled Europe today? Some may say it's happening anyhow, centuries after losing the battle. These kinds of things are speculative but interesting, and since its a Muslim versus Christian battle I thought it might be relevant. Well, not as relevant as transgender bathroom arrangements, but hey, what is?  |
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The Lost One
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@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Jul 4, 2017 10:44:35 GMT
If the Moors had won at Tours or the Ottomans in Vienna then Christianity would probably have become a minority religion to Islam in Europe (and presumably never become a force in East Asia, Africa or America). Though the nature of the two religions would probably be very different to how they are today in this reality. Therefore it's near impossible to say whether things would be better or worse in one of these Islam-dominated realities than it is as things actually turned out.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 4, 2017 11:17:08 GMT
If the Moors had won at Tours or the Ottomans in Vienna then Christianity would probably have become a minority religion to Islam in Europe (and presumably never become a force in East Asia, Africa or America). Though the nature of the two religions would probably be very different to how they are today in this reality. Therefore it's near impossible to say whether things would be better or worse in one of these Islam-dominated realities than it is as things actually turned out. My personal opinion is that Muslim society was slightly better and had slightly less social evils than Christian society at that time. But both religions suffer from belief that their religion is the true one. This is one dangerous thought for any religion to have. So can't say how the world would have been right now if Muslims succeeded in winning Europe long way back. |
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Post by Winter_King on Jul 4, 2017 11:26:07 GMT
If the Moors had won at Tours or the Ottomans in Vienna then Christianity would probably have become a minority religion to Islam in Europe (and presumably never become a force in East Asia, Africa or America). Though the nature of the two religions would probably be very different to how they are today in this reality. Therefore it's near impossible to say whether things would be better or worse in one of these Islam-dominated realities than it is as things actually turned out. I'm not sure about Vienna is comparable to Tours. Sure it would be a massive defeat, but it's questionable if the Ottomans could advance deep into Western Europe where you had the rest of Holy Roman Empire as buffer and the powers of England, Spain and France which would present a significant challenge. More decisive was the Siege of Constantinople of 717-718. Pretty much stopped the Arab advance towards southern Europe for centuries. Only in 1453 did the Turks managed to conquer the city and by that time, things were different. |
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Post by phludowin on Jul 4, 2017 11:51:20 GMT
If the Moors had won at Tours or the Ottomans in Vienna then Christianity would probably have become a minority religion to Islam in Europe (and presumably never become a force in East Asia, Africa or America). Though the nature of the two religions would probably be very different to how they are today in this reality. Therefore it's near impossible to say whether things would be better or worse in one of these Islam-dominated realities than it is as things actually turned out. Actually we can look at Spain which was under Muslim government for centuries. It didn't prevent Spain from becoming Christian again. And the Alhambra is supposedly a masterpiece of architecture, at least on par with the great French cathedrals in Amiens, Paris, Orléans or Chartres (to name just a few). |
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Jul 4, 2017 12:49:29 GMT
If the Moors had won at Tours or the Ottomans in Vienna then Christianity would probably have become a minority religion to Islam in Europe (and presumably never become a force in East Asia, Africa or America). Though the nature of the two religions would probably be very different to how they are today in this reality. Therefore it's near impossible to say whether things would be better or worse in one of these Islam-dominated realities than it is as things actually turned out. Actually we can look at Spain which was under Muslim government for centuries. It didn't prevent Spain from becoming Christian again. The people didn't just decide to become Christian again though. The victory at Tours halted the Muslim expansion northwards, meaning the Christian rebels in Iberia had allies at their backs which allowed them to slowly reconquer the region over the next 500 years. Tours also laid the foundations of the Carolingian Empire - without it the Ummayads would have found their enemies to be divided and weak. The chances of reconquest would have plummeted.
Of course who's to know what might have happened? Maybe some great person would have started a massive religious movement and Islam and Christianity would have both disappeared.
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The Lost One
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@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Jul 4, 2017 12:50:30 GMT
If the Moors had won at Tours or the Ottomans in Vienna then Christianity would probably have become a minority religion to Islam in Europe (and presumably never become a force in East Asia, Africa or America). Though the nature of the two religions would probably be very different to how they are today in this reality. Therefore it's near impossible to say whether things would be better or worse in one of these Islam-dominated realities than it is as things actually turned out. I'm not sure about Vienna is comparable to Tours. Sure it would be a massive defeat, but it's questionable if the Ottomans could advance deep into Western Europe where you had the rest of Holy Roman Empire as buffer and the powers of England, Spain and France which would present a significant challenge. More decisive was the Siege of Constantinople of 717-718. Pretty much stopped the Arab advance towards southern Europe for centuries. Only in 1453 did the Turks managed to conquer the city and by that time, things were different. Fair enough |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 4, 2017 14:19:22 GMT
If the Moors had won at Tours or the Ottomans in Vienna then Christianity would probably have become a minority religion to Islam in Europe (and presumably never become a force in East Asia, Africa or America). Though the nature of the two religions would probably be very different to how they are today in this reality. Therefore it's near impossible to say whether things would be better or worse in one of these Islam-dominated realities than it is as things actually turned out. I tend to agree with you more than I agree with the narrator. He says that if Charles Martel had lost the battle he would have certainly been killed and his grandson Charlemagne would never have been born, but who's to say that someone else wouldn't have come along to do what Charlemagne did? Creasy listed it as one of the fifteen decisive battles in world history, and the Muslim expansion into France was definitely stopped. No doubt about that. |
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jul 4, 2017 14:20:49 GMT
If the Moors had won at Tours or the Ottomans in Vienna then Christianity would probably have become a minority religion to Islam in Europe (and presumably never become a force in East Asia, Africa or America). Though the nature of the two religions would probably be very different to how they are today in this reality. Therefore it's near impossible to say whether things would be better or worse in one of these Islam-dominated realities than it is as things actually turned out. My personal opinion is that Muslim society was slightly better and had slightly less social evils than Christian society at that time. But both religions suffer from belief that their religion is the true one. This is one dangerous thought for any religion to have. So can't say how the world would have been right now if Muslims succeeded in winning Europe long way back. Well, dangerous thoughts need to be crushed without mercy, don't they, Aj? |
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 4, 2017 14:22:50 GMT
My personal opinion is that Muslim society was slightly better and had slightly less social evils than Christian society at that time. But both religions suffer from belief that their religion is the true one. This is one dangerous thought for any religion to have. So can't say how the world would have been right now if Muslims succeeded in winning Europe long way back. Well, dangerous thoughts need to be crushed without mercy, don't they, Aj? No. Anyone who has posted here has known that I have never advocated any such thing. |
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Post by general313 on Jul 4, 2017 17:37:57 GMT
If the Moors had won at Tours or the Ottomans in Vienna then Christianity would probably have become a minority religion to Islam in Europe (and presumably never become a force in East Asia, Africa or America). Though the nature of the two religions would probably be very different to how they are today in this reality. Therefore it's near impossible to say whether things would be better or worse in one of these Islam-dominated realities than it is as things actually turned out. My personal opinion is that Muslim society was slightly better and had slightly less social evils than Christian society at that time. But both religions suffer from belief that their religion is the true one. This is one dangerous thought for any religion to have. So can't say how the world would have been right now if Muslims succeeded in winning Europe long way back. I think it might have been more than "slightly better". At the time, the Moors were much more receptive to science than the Catholics, and were a lot more advanced. The Jews in Spain did much better under Moorish rule, but that could be in part because they assisted the Moors during the conquest. I suppose it sort of parallels the way Native American groups that were oppressed by the Aztecs assisted the Spanish in the conquest of Mexico. |
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Post by bonerxmas on Jul 4, 2017 17:48:18 GMT
they would have been beaten later, visigoth spain was a declining power, the franks were a rising power
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Post by sublime92 on Jul 5, 2017 19:15:56 GMT
The first 30 seconds of that video is incredibly telling of Islam both past and present. To be blunt, it's been a religion of conquest from day one. It's most famous person, Mohammad, was willful of the peaceful teaching and organic growth of his faith. In turn, he galvanized early-Islam to expand by raping and pillaging innocent peoples' lands.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jul 5, 2017 20:26:01 GMT
If the Moors had won at Tours or the Ottomans in Vienna then Christianity would probably have become a minority religion to Islam in Europe (and presumably never become a force in East Asia, Africa or America). Though the nature of the two religions would probably be very different to how they are today in this reality. Therefore it's near impossible to say whether things would be better or worse in one of these Islam-dominated realities than it is as things actually turned out. I'm not sure about Vienna is comparable to Tours. Sure it would be a massive defeat, but it's questionable if the Ottomans could advance deep into Western Europe where you had the rest of Holy Roman Empire as buffer and the powers of England, Spain and France which would present a significant challenge. More decisive was the Siege of Constantinople of 717-718. Pretty much stopped the Arab advance towards southern Europe for centuries. Only in 1453 did the Turks managed to conquer the city and by that time, things were different. That's pretty much it. Abdul Rahman probably had no more that 20,000 at Tours. Not much more than a big raiding party. Maslama ibn Abd al-Malik had close to 120,000 at Constantinople. It was the all out effort. Had the Byzantines fallen, there was nothing to stop the Caliphate, up to the North Sea. Wouls they have taken over Europe? Who knows? Italy and the rest of the Mediterranean coast would have fallen, but was the rest worth it. Eventually, the Muslim armies would have had to consolidate. And the Umayyads fell little over 30 years later. The Abbasids might not have taken over, with the prestige the Umayyads had after vanquishing the Romans. |
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