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Post by DC-Fan on Jul 19, 2017 18:47:12 GMT
there is this math thing you don't know about, it's called rounding. That's why I said "give or take 6 months". December 1941. We know that's the earliest when the scene of Steve Rogers and the other young men signed up for the Army to go fight the Nazis. That date is basically set in stone and can't be moved earlier. Now it probably took a few months for Steve Rogers to be selected for the Super PED and then get injected and then become a poster boy for the Army (performing dances on-stage with cheerleaders for Stan lee and punching out an actor dressed up like Hitler) and then rescue Bucky so the plane crashing into the ice was probably in 1942. So let's say Steve Rogers was asleep for 69 years and 6 months, and Fury rounded up to 70 years. That still means Steve Rogers woke up no earlier than around June 2011, which puts the Chitauri invasion in the latter half of 2011 at the earliest and more likely in 2012 (which is in line with when The Avengers was released). So Civil War takes place 4 years later (in 2016) and SMH takes place 5 years later (in 2017), not 8 years later as the movie says. MAJOR FUCK-UP!
They had supervision. Fury, SHIELD, the World Security Council (Basically NATO or UN). He included Loki's invasion to make them feel guilty If they had supervision during the Chitauri invasion, then why would they feel guilty when they could've just thrown that back at Ross by saying "You can't count the Chitauri invasion against us. We had supervision then and did what we were ordered to do by superiors."? But they didn't, because they didn't have supervision.
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zoilus
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Post by zoilus on Jul 19, 2017 18:50:12 GMT
That's why I said "give or take 6 months". You round your way, Fury rounds his way (nearest decade in this instance). If they had supervision during the Chitauri invasion, then why would they feel guilty when they could've just thrown that back at Ross by saying "You can't count the Chitauri invasion against us. We had supervision then and did what we were ordered to do by superiors."? But they didn't, because they didn't have supervision. Because dumb dumb, guilt isn't always rational. I know you love Marvel. Everyone here knows you love Marvel. You can drop the charade.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jul 19, 2017 18:51:06 GMT
you like to interpret Lex Luthor creating Doomsday to be a re-interpretation of a Greek myth. You must be thinking of someone else. I've never written any post saying that Luthor created Doomsday as a re-interpretation of a Greek myth. You probably got confused because of my posts regarding Wonder Woman's costume being based on Greek mythology. Wonder Woman's origins (and the Amazons' origins for that matter) are closely connected to Greek mythology so Wonder Woman's costume was designed to be a tribute to the god and other great figures of Greek mythology. But Greek mythology has nothing to do with Luthor creating Doomsday.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jul 19, 2017 18:56:09 GMT
Civil War says Avengers was 4 years ago. Homecoming (2 months after CW) says it was 8 years ago. well its hard to argue with that! Well, would you argue that the fact that the scenes of Steve Rogers and the other young men signing up for the Army to fight the Nazis couldn't have happened earlier than December 1941? And would you argue with the fact that 1941 + 70 years (the number of years that Nick Fury told Steve Rogers he had been asleep for) = 2011? And would you argue with the fact that the Chitauri invasion couldn't have happened before 2011, when Steve Rogers woke up after being asleep for 70 years (which Nick Fury himself said)?
Therefore, the Chitauri invasion couldn't have happened before 2011 and more likely happened in 2012, which is in line with when The Avengers was released. So Civil War takes place 4 years later (in 2016) and SMH takes place 5 years later (in 2017), not 8 years later as the movie says.
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zoilus
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Post by zoilus on Jul 19, 2017 19:03:50 GMT
(the number of years that Nick Fury told Steve Rogers he had been asleep for) I would argue that Fury didn't mean exactly 70 years, that he rounded to the nearest decade.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 19:05:28 GMT
No one did, Marveltard. We both know it. That's why it was invented with this dopey video that you all are desperately latching onto. It makes much more sense to interpret them as having had no supervision since the fall of SHIELD, and since then many characters believe Fury (Avengers supervisor) to be dead. The fact that this thread and video even exist proves that no one interpreted that way until Homecoming's MASSIVE CONTINUITY ERROR forced them to reinterpret things.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 19:07:09 GMT
SHIELD was supervision, but not GOVERNMENTAL supervision (which is what Ross was talking about). SHIELD was not like NATO or the UN. It was its own separate thing. It's not accountable to the UN or to any world government. I'm glad you've found a theory to latch onto that makes this glaring failure make sense to you, but it doesn't change the reality that it's still a retcon. Marvel fucked-up. No one interpreted Ross's "4 years" statement to mean anything OTHER than the beginning of the Avengers until Marvel majorly fucked up the timeline. Now everyone is scrambling to make sense of it, instead of just admitting that they goofed and have egg all over their face. The World Security Council is governmental supervision, as he pointed out. SHIELD answers to them. He also pointed out that two Avengers were on a SHIELD mission together in The Winter Soldier, which was less than four years real time before Civil War. By no means does this video resolve the error-- the guy who uploaded it even admits as much. It's just a fan theory. Maybe Marvel will address this issue, maybe they won't. Honestly it isn't a big deal to me one way or the other; if anything I was more confused by where Doctor Strange fits into the timeline. I thought there were continuity errors in that flick regarding the MCU timeline but I'd have to watch it again. The WSC was not governmental supervision. They don't answer the the governments of the world. That's why it didn't work. SHIELD (which includes the WSC) was an independent organization (like the Federal Reserve and CIA). They might work in tandem with the government, but they are not under their direct control. Ross was talking about putting the Avengers under DIRECT government control. SHIELD didn't do that.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jul 19, 2017 19:12:45 GMT
That's why I said "give or take 6 months". You round your way, Fury rounds his way (nearest decade in this instance). If they had supervision during the Chitauri invasion, then why would they feel guilty when they could've just thrown that back at Ross by saying "You can't count the Chitauri invasion against us. We had supervision then and did what we were ordered to do by superiors."? But they didn't, because they didn't have supervision. Because dumb dumb, guilt isn't always rational. I know you love Marvel. Everyone here knows you love Marvel. You can drop the charade. They also didn't point out that the WSC launched a nuclear warhead at the city, which Iron Man saved the city from. Nor did they point out Ross's involvement in previous attempts to corral the Hulk, which resulted in a fair amount of collateral damage. Hell, nobody bothers to bring up that in literally every one of the scenarios Ross is bitching about, the outcome is unquestionably far worse if the Avengers hadn't intervened. It's always bothered me but that wasn't the mood the scene was going for. As you already pointed out, the fact that Cap and Widow were on a SHIELD mission in TWS proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that these operatives had oversight until at least the events of TWS.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 19:13:52 GMT
You round your way, Fury rounds his way (nearest decade in this instance). Because dumb dumb, guilt isn't always rational. I know you love Marvel. Everyone here knows you love Marvel. You can drop the charade. They also didn't point out that the WSC launched a nuclear warhead at the city, which Iron Man saved the city from. Nor did they point out Ross's involvement in previous attempts to corral the Hulk, which resulted in a fair amount of collateral damage. Hell, nobody bothers to bring up that in literally every one of the scenarios Ross is bitching about, the outcome is unquestionably far worse if the Avengers hadn't intervened. It's always bothered me but that wasn't the mood the scene was going for. As you already pointed out, the fact that Cap and Widow were on a SHIELD mission in TWS proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that these operatives had oversight until at least the events of TWS. Again, that is NOT the type of oversight that Ross is talking about. The Federal Reserve, the CIA, and SHIELD do NOT have direct governmental oversight. They are independent organizations.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jul 19, 2017 19:25:48 GMT
The World Security Council is governmental supervision, as he pointed out. SHIELD answers to them. He also pointed out that two Avengers were on a SHIELD mission together in The Winter Soldier, which was less than four years real time before Civil War. By no means does this video resolve the error-- the guy who uploaded it even admits as much. It's just a fan theory. Maybe Marvel will address this issue, maybe they won't. Honestly it isn't a big deal to me one way or the other; if anything I was more confused by where Doctor Strange fits into the timeline. I thought there were continuity errors in that flick regarding the MCU timeline but I'd have to watch it again. The WSC was not governmental supervision. They don't answer the the governments of the world. That's why it didn't work. SHIELD (which includes the WSC) was an independent organization (like the Federal Reserve and CIA). They might work in tandem with the government, but they are not under their direct control. Ross was talking about putting the Avengers under DIRECT government control. SHIELD didn't do that. It absolutely was government supervision. marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/World_Security_CouncilTheir lack of transparency was disturbing (not unlike most intelligence agencies), and it clearly didn't function as it was designed to, but it was a council of government officials from around the world. It didn't work for the same reason the UN doesn't always work; everyone has their own agenda. No matter how altruistic the concept may be, each government is going to put their best interests at the forefront. Well, that and in this case Hydra had infiltrated the entire organization, straight to the top. Cap saw this firsthand, which is exactly why he's against government supervision now. From his point of view, the larger the organization, the easier it is to corrupt. Frankly the audience's understanding of the previous films are the only thing keeping Cap from looking like a criminal in CW. Rhodey even tells Cap his logic is dangerous, and it is. But his paranoia is understandable given what he's been through. But getting back to the point at hand, at the end of the day, the WSC was a political mechanism answerable at least in theory to the governments of the world.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 19:32:17 GMT
The WSC was not governmental supervision. They don't answer the the governments of the world. That's why it didn't work. SHIELD (which includes the WSC) was an independent organization (like the Federal Reserve and CIA). They might work in tandem with the government, but they are not under their direct control. Ross was talking about putting the Avengers under DIRECT government control. SHIELD didn't do that. It absolutely was government supervision. marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/World_Security_CouncilTheir lack of transparency was disturbing (not unlike most intelligence agencies), and it clearly didn't function as it was designed to, but it was a council of government officials from around the world. It didn't work for the same reason the UN doesn't always work; everyone has their own agenda. No matter how altruistic the concept may be, each government is going to put their best interests at the forefront. Well, that and in this case Hydra had infiltrated the entire organization, straight to the top. Cap saw this firsthand, which is exactly why he's against government supervision now. From his point of view, the larger the organization, the easier it is to corrupt. Frankly the audience's understanding of the previous films are the only thing keeping Cap from looking like a criminal in CW. Rhodey even tells Cap his logic is dangerous, and it is. But his paranoia is understandable given what he's been through. But getting back to the point at hand, at the end of the day, the WSC was a political mechanism answerable at least in theory to the governments of the world. You need to brush up on civics. The Fed and CIA have appointments from the government too, but they do NOT operate under government supervision (it's called an independent agency/organization -- look it up). That's SPECIFICALLY what Ross was talking about. The Avengers have NEVER been under direct government supervision. And that was the problem. SHIELD and the WSC operated in private/secret. The UN operates in the open. That's the difference.
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Post by Archelaus on Jul 19, 2017 19:34:34 GMT
Another thing that supports that The Avengers took place in 2012 is that Iron Man 3 takes place during Christmas of the same year, roughly six months after The Avengers. Aldrich Killian states in the film that it's been thirteen years since he proposed his Extremis serum at the 1999 New Year's Eve party. So, 1999 + 13 = 2012.
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zoilus
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Post by zoilus on Jul 19, 2017 19:42:14 GMT
It makes much more sense to interpret them as having had no supervision since the fall of SHIELD, and since then many characters believe Fury (Avengers supervisor) to be dead. The fact that this thread and video even exist proves that no one interpreted that way until Homecoming's MASSIVE CONTINUITY ERROR forced them to reinterpret things. It proves that some (like you) interpreted it wrongly and it was worth addressing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 19:44:35 GMT
The fact that this thread and video even exist proves that no one interpreted that way until Homecoming's MASSIVE CONTINUITY ERROR forced them to reinterpret things. It proves that some (like you) interpreted it wrongly and it was worth addressing. You created this thread because you were interpreting it the same way everyone else was, and you were desperate for an explanation that wipes away Marvel's MASSIVE CONTINUITY ERROR. Now that you've found an explanation, feel free to go ahead and accept it. But don't pretend like it's anything other than a retcon to explain a major fuck-up.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jul 19, 2017 19:45:53 GMT
I wonder if they will fix that on the DVD/Blu-ray release?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 19:56:23 GMT
This dingleberry's timeline doesn't even work the way he's saying it does. Ross clearly says "4 years" (which he says starts with TWS), but then he dates CW to be 5 years later. What a joke!
Marvel's timeline is FUCKED!
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jul 19, 2017 20:05:26 GMT
you like to interpret Lex Luthor creating Doomsday to be a re-interpretation of a Greek myth. You must be thinking of someone else. I've never written any post saying that Luthor created Doomsday as a re-interpretation of a Greek myth. You probably got confused because of my posts regarding Wonder Woman's costume being based on Greek mythology. Wonder Woman's origins (and the Amazons' origins for that matter) are closely connected to Greek mythology so Wonder Woman's costume was designed to be a tribute to the god and other great figures of Greek mythology. But Greek mythology has nothing to do with Luthor creating Doomsday. No, you made said comparison a year ago on IMDb prime and used it to defend the writing quality of BvS. Then again, your intelligence doesn't seem strong enough to have that good of a memory, no real shocker I suppose, but still.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Jul 19, 2017 20:06:02 GMT
It absolutely was government supervision. marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/World_Security_CouncilTheir lack of transparency was disturbing (not unlike most intelligence agencies), and it clearly didn't function as it was designed to, but it was a council of government officials from around the world. It didn't work for the same reason the UN doesn't always work; everyone has their own agenda. No matter how altruistic the concept may be, each government is going to put their best interests at the forefront. Well, that and in this case Hydra had infiltrated the entire organization, straight to the top. Cap saw this firsthand, which is exactly why he's against government supervision now. From his point of view, the larger the organization, the easier it is to corrupt. Frankly the audience's understanding of the previous films are the only thing keeping Cap from looking like a criminal in CW. Rhodey even tells Cap his logic is dangerous, and it is. But his paranoia is understandable given what he's been through. But getting back to the point at hand, at the end of the day, the WSC was a political mechanism answerable at least in theory to the governments of the world. You need to brush up on civics. The Fed and CIA have appointments from the government too, but they do NOT operate under government supervision (it's called an independent agency/organization -- look it up). That's SPECIFICALLY what Ross was talking about. The Avengers have NEVER been under direct government supervision. And that was the problem. SHIELD and the WSC operated in private/secret. The UN operates in the open. That's the difference. I was going to argue the political nature of the WSC as opposed to the CIA (which would be a stand in for SHIELD in this conversation), but you're right. I was looking through quotes from the film to boost my argument and instead I found this one that pretty much proves your argument instead. Lol this pretty much confirms the WSC had no oversight and thus was answerable to no one. I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong. [cheers]
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Post by JudgeJuryDredd on Jul 19, 2017 20:07:18 GMT
The uploader did admit some details( Provided in the films themselves and by those working on them) were sketchy, but provided a very solid interpretation of the timeline for the majority of the video that does line things up with the whole "eight years" thing. They did not waste their time, they made a strong effort, and one I think most could get behind instead of admitting "defeat" like you'd wish all fans of the MCU would do. As I told the other poster... I'm glad you've found a theory to latch onto that makes this glaring failure make sense to you, but it doesn't change the reality that it's still a retcon. Marvel fucked-up. No one interpreted Ross's "4 years" statement to mean anything OTHER than the beginning of the Avengers until Marvel majorly fucked up the timeline. Now everyone is scrambling to make sense of it, instead of just admitting that they goofed and have egg all over their face. Whatever floats your boat, don't let me from stopping you dancing in your house pretending its a fancy yacht with supermodels and Daft Punk DJ-ing the music scene.
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barkingbaphomet
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Post by barkingbaphomet on Jul 19, 2017 20:30:13 GMT
Quit using exclamation points
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