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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 24, 2017 21:35:20 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2017 21:41:26 GMT
It is presumptuous of any person to determine their value to others. Your value to another person is for them to decide, not you.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 24, 2017 21:57:08 GMT
It is presumptuous of any person to determine their value to others. Your value to another person is for them to decide, not you. Read the entire article, graham, you might be surprised. I am just throwing this out as a reference. Plus, I was having technical difficulties getting it to post, and have edited and added a lot.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 24, 2017 22:45:16 GMT
My cousin's cousin committed suicide at an age of 31 a few months ago. Everyone in his family was shocked. We suspect that the main reason for his suicide was the feeling of losing out in a competitive society. His father is a very successful man and in Indian society you are expected to match the level of your father's success else you are seen as a failure (so bad isn't it?). We should try to understand people who are of suicidal nature and many suicides can then be averted. Humans seek support from their fellow human beings. When people stop getting support then they are more prone to end it all.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 24, 2017 23:37:38 GMT
My cousin's cousin committed suicide at an age of 31 a few months ago. Everyone in his family was shocked. We suspect that the main reason for his suicide was the feeling of losing out in a competitive society. His father is a very successful man and in Indian society you are expected to match the level of your father's success else you are seen as a failure (so bad isn't it?). We should try to understand people who are of suicidal nature and many suicides can then be averted. Humans seek support from their fellow human beings. When people stop getting support then they are more prone to end it all. Unfortunately the kind of "support" that this Rachel chick is offering could be detrimental. People who glorify and defend suicide as a viable option have no business trying to help other people. They need to help themselves first get a proper take on ethics. Suicide is NEVER the answer, and the minute we suggest that it's acceptable for certain people to commit suicide, that's the moment when we need to question our own understanding of it. How can someone who supports suicide "help" someone who is suicidal? It's ridiculous!
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islandmur
Sophomore
All religions have messages of peace and love yet all religions are used for wars and hatred...
@islandmur
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Post by islandmur on Jul 25, 2017 1:35:05 GMT
Have you ever seen someone suffering from cancer? Last stage? Why do you think that physical suffering is worse than emotional?
Some emotional trauma can be helped and some can even be cured, but some people go through hell every single day of their life. Their life is unbearable. And no one not even psychologist or psychiatrist can help them. No meds, no cure. Just pain day in and day out.
I'm talking about grown people here not teens or kids going through phases or rough times.
Who are you to stand there and decide they are cowards for choosing to end their suffering?
You do not know what they are living in.
Like i said I don't advocate suicide and if I know someone is suicidal I will try to talk them out of it. But I will not blame them if they succeed.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 25, 2017 5:39:29 GMT
My cousin's cousin committed suicide at an age of 31 a few months ago. Everyone in his family was shocked. We suspect that the main reason for his suicide was the feeling of losing out in a competitive society. His father is a very successful man and in Indian society you are expected to match the level of your father's success else you are seen as a failure (so bad isn't it?). We should try to understand people who are of suicidal nature and many suicides can then be averted. Humans seek support from their fellow human beings. When people stop getting support then they are more prone to end it all. Unfortunately the kind of "support" that this Rachel chick is offering could be detrimental. People who glorify and defend suicide as a viable option have no business trying to help other people. They need to help themselves first get a proper take on ethics. Suicide is NEVER the answer, and the minute we suggest that it's acceptable for certain people to commit suicide, that's the moment when we need to question our own understanding of it. How can someone who supports suicide "help" someone who is suicidal? It's ridiculous! What are you even talking about? and chick is not used to refer to every women in this world.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 25, 2017 5:40:57 GMT
Like i said I don't advocate suicide and if I know someone is suicidal I will try to talk them out of it. But I will not blame them if they succeed. Exactly. If I knew someone is suicidal then I will try to talk to the person. But won't go on calling someone stupid for doing such a thing because I can't even relate to what that person might be going through.
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Post by phludowin on Jul 25, 2017 6:21:28 GMT
Unfortunately the kind of "support" that this Rachel chick is offering could be detrimental. People who glorify and defend suicide as a viable option have no business trying to help other people. She did? Where? And even if she did... Do you have any evidence for it? Especially evidence that does not involve appeal to emotion?
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Post by cupcakes on Jul 25, 2017 11:22:15 GMT
Unfortunately the kind of "support" that this Rachel chick is offering could be detrimental. People who glorify and defend suicide as a viable option have no business trying to help other people. They need to help themselves first get a proper take on ethics. Suicide is NEVER the answer, and the minute we suggest that it's acceptable for certain people to commit suicide, that's the moment when we need to question our own understanding of it. How can someone who supports suicide "help" someone who is suicidal? It's ridiculous! Where did you see that? There are a lot of spots between vilifying and glorifying, and not vilifying the person certainly does not suggest defending suicide.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 25, 2017 12:50:29 GMT
Unfortunately the kind of "support" that this Rachel chick is offering could be detrimental. People who glorify and defend suicide as a viable option have no business trying to help other people. They need to help themselves first get a proper take on ethics. Suicide is NEVER the answer, and the minute we suggest that it's acceptable for certain people to commit suicide, that's the moment when we need to question our own understanding of it. How can someone who supports suicide "help" someone who is suicidal? It's ridiculous! What are you even talking about? She is a suicide advocate. I wasn't referring to every woman in this world, I was referring to this Rachel (who is presumably female).
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 25, 2017 12:56:50 GMT
Unfortunately the kind of "support" that this Rachel chick is offering could be detrimental. People who glorify and defend suicide as a viable option have no business trying to help other people. She did? Where? RIP Chester Bennington thread! I don't require "evidence" for what I consider to be obvious in terms of morality and ethics. It's my opinion and the opinion of most psychologists and mental health professionals. There is no "evidence" that rape is immoral since morality is objective. Yet, I stand by the statement that it IS in fact immoral. If you choose to disagree, then that's your opinion. But telling other people that rape (or suicide) is okay in my opinion would make you a bad person who propagates harmful information onto society.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 25, 2017 13:10:15 GMT
Have you ever seen someone suffering from cancer? Last stage? Why do you think that physical suffering is worse than emotional? Some emotional trauma can be helped and some can even be cured, but some people go through hell every single day of their life. Their life is unbearable. And no one not even psychologist or psychiatrist can help them. No meds, no cure. Just pain day in and day out. I'm talking about grown people here not teens or kids going through phases or rough times. Who are you to stand there and decide they are cowards for choosing to end their suffering? You do not know what they are living in. Like i said I don't advocate suicide and if I know someone is suicidal I will try to talk them out of it. But I will not blame them if they succeed. This argument is flawed and desperate and I've already destroyed it on another thread, but I'm happy to do so again. A) We are not talking about someone in the final stages of cancer! I love how this is the one example anyone can ever come up with to justify suicide: dying a slow and painful death! That is ONE scenario that happens to usually not be applicable to actual suicide choosers. B) I never said (or argued from the standpoint) that one type of suffering is worse than another kind. Suffering is suffering, and I don't believe that people should suffer intolerably. The point that you are missing is that people most often don't have to suffer when they seek help. And many of these people never seek any help. They turn to alcohol and drugs to try to escape their pain, and that inevitably leads to more depression and eventually suicide. I don't by the argument that some people can't be helped with counseling or meds. That's bullsh*t, they can. They just never get that help (sometimes due to their own choices). Suicide is the cowardly way out, and often a permanent solution to a temporary problem. C) That suicide is a cowardly act shouldn't even be a debate! But since you are making it one, my opinion is that it is. You may not blame someone for killing themselves, but I would! Especially if they have left behind a family with young children. That is just selfish and inexcusable! For the record I know several people who have committed suicide before (including my own stepdad). I'm in the military and I know all about PTSD, substance abuse, and suicide prevention. I've suffered from depression before and I've had suicidal thoughts before, so it's not like I'm talking out of left field here.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 25, 2017 13:24:21 GMT
RIP Chester Bennington thread! I don't require "evidence" for what I consider to be obvious in terms of morality and ethics. It's my opinion and the opinion of most psychologists and mental health professionals. There is no "evidence" that rape is immoral since morality is objective. Yet, I stand by the statement that it IS in fact immoral. If you choose to disagree, then that's your opinion. But telling other people that rape (or suicide) is okay in my opinion would make you a bad person who propagates harmful information onto society. Is it opinion of most psychologists and mental health professionals that suicide is cowardice/immoral?
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 25, 2017 13:41:00 GMT
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 25, 2017 14:03:22 GMT
RIP Chester Bennington thread! I don't require "evidence" for what I consider to be obvious in terms of morality and ethics. It's my opinion and the opinion of most psychologists and mental health professionals. There is no "evidence" that rape is immoral since morality is objective. Yet, I stand by the statement that it IS in fact immoral. If you choose to disagree, then that's your opinion. But telling other people that rape (or suicide) is okay in my opinion would make you a bad person who propagates harmful information onto society. Is it opinion of most psychologists and mental health professionals that suicide is cowardice/immoral? It is certainly their belief that it is detrimental, tragic, avoidable and usually preventable. And none of them advocate the position that it is acceptable! As to whether or not they find it cowardly or immoral, I honestly don't know. Since those are "politically incorrect" statements to make I doubt that many would express that publicly if they did believe it. I have no such constraints from offering my opinion on it though.
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 25, 2017 14:26:02 GMT
Is it opinion of most psychologists and mental health professionals that suicide is cowardice/immoral? It is certainly their belief that it is detrimental, tragic, avoidable and usually preventable. And none of them advocate the position that it is acceptable! As to whether or not they find it cowardly or immoral, I honestly don't know. Since those are "politically incorrect" statements to make I doubt that many would express that publicly if they did believe it. I have no such constraints from offering my opinion on it though. Almost everyone knows that suicide is tragic. But the opinion of most psychologists and mental health professionals is that suicide is not cowardice/immoral/selfishness and that to hold such an opinion is in fact misguided. And most of the people who commit suicide don't do out of selfishness but with an opinion that their death might be worth more to their close ones than their life (even if they are wrong in forming such an opinion).
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Jul 25, 2017 14:48:11 GMT
Thanks for posting that AJ, it is much more specific to the discussed incident. And, condolences to you on the suicide of your cousin's cousin; cultural influences can very much be a factor. I was somewhat aware that Indian society was very focused on success and there is always great pressure to succeed. I believe Japanese culture was at one time the same. As our world becomes more globalized, we need to learn about the many cultures on this earth and try to understand each one, and not be judgmental. Only this way can we become a world at peace.
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Post by captainbryce on Jul 25, 2017 15:12:55 GMT
It is certainly their belief that it is detrimental, tragic, avoidable and usually preventable. And none of them advocate the position that it is acceptable! As to whether or not they find it cowardly or immoral, I honestly don't know. Since those are "politically incorrect" statements to make I doubt that many would express that publicly if they did believe it. I have no such constraints from offering my opinion on it though. Almost everyone knows that suicide is tragic. But the opinion of most psychologists and mental health professionals is that suicide is not cowardice/immoral/selfishness and that to hold such an opinion is in fact misguided. And most of the people who commit suicide don't do out of selfishness but with an opinion that their death might be worth more to their close ones than their life (even if they are wrong in forming such an opinion). That would make THEM misguided, not me. If someone thinks that killing themselves is to the benefit of their family, they they are mentally ill and need psychological help. Unfortunately since they usually don't seek such help, they end up like this Linkin Park guy. At some point people need to be honest and place blame where the blame lies. It's his fault that he is dead, because he doesn't have to be. He made a permanent decision to address a temporary problem. Whether it be drugs, or alcohol, or sheer ignorance, it's his fault. He made a poor choice, and now his family has to suffer for it. And yes, it is selfish to make your family pay for your inability to get your life together. If you're a single person without a family and no reason to live and you want to off yourself, fine no big loss. But if you have 6 kids, a wife, loving parents, and millions of fans, I'm sorry but taking your own life is selfish (whether you rationalize it in your own mind or not).
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Post by Aj_June on Jul 25, 2017 15:29:16 GMT
Almost everyone knows that suicide is tragic. But the opinion of most psychologists and mental health professionals is that suicide is not cowardice/immoral/selfishness and that to hold such an opinion is in fact misguided. And most of the people who commit suicide don't do out of selfishness but with an opinion that their death might be worth more to their close ones than their life (even if they are wrong in forming such an opinion). That would make THEM misguided, not me. If someone thinks that killing themselves is to the benefit of their family, they they are mentally ill and need psychological help. Unfortunately since they usually don't seek such help, they end up like this Linkin Park guy. At some point people need to be honest and place blame where the blame lies. It's his fault that he is dead, because he doesn't have to be. He made a permanent decision to address a temporary problem. Whether it be drugs, or alcohol, or sheer ignorance, it's his fault. He made a poor choice, and now his family has to suffer for it. And yes, it is selfish to make your family pay for your inability to get your life together. If you're a single person without a family and no reason to live and you want to off yourself, fine no big loss. But if you have 6 kids, a wife, loving parents, and millions of fans, I'm sorry but taking your own life is selfish (whether you rationalize it in your own mind or not). You see Bryce, it's easy for a layman to call experts misguided but that doesn't make them so. Depression is a state of illness in which people feel hopelessly alienated and detached from the world. Sure, you can get treatment. But it is something that can recur. After a bit of time, you don't feel like calling for help from people around you as in the state of depression your mind tends to remain isolated. So what you are basically doing is that calling those ill people who need to be empathized as cowards. Great. Your opinion for sure. But most psychologists and mental health professionals differ with you.
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