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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Aug 29, 2017 14:36:16 GMT
I have a different slant on Tyrion's responsibility. He should have believed Jon in the first place or at least given him more benefit of the doubt. Let's see things as they are. In stories written for adults or people with normal intellectual abilities, an army leader informed of a danger sends scouting parties and believes them. He doesn't go there himself to catch something and bring it to the other leaders. This show is written for idiots and they needed a reason to have a stupid episode with action, drama and the loss of a dragon. That's all.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 29, 2017 14:42:57 GMT
I have a different slant on Tyrion's responsibility. He should have believed Jon in the first place or at least given him more benefit of the doubt. Let's see things as they are. In stories written for adults or people with normal intellectual abilities, an army leader informed of a danger sends scouting parties and believes them. He doesn't go there himself to catch something and bring it to the other leaders. This show is written for idiots and they needed a reason to have a stupid episode with action, drama and the loss of a dragon. That's all. Although I sorta agree with the last sentence, it was not uncommon for military and political leaders to be a part of a battle. That isn't the stupid part for me and considering that Jon rarely makes other people do things he himself would not.
The idiotic part is the one guy who knows how big the army is and that the army can only get larger decides that the best course of action is to head straight for that army with a tiny group of guys.
There was no way they weren't going to die.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Aug 29, 2017 14:56:50 GMT
Let's see things as they are. In stories written for adults or people with normal intellectual abilities, an army leader informed of a danger sends scouting parties and believes them. He doesn't go there himself to catch something and bring it to the other leaders. This show is written for idiots and they needed a reason to have a stupid episode with action, drama and the loss of a dragon. That's all. Although I sorta agree with the last sentence, it was not uncommon for military and political leaders to be a part of a battle. Kings led their armies into decisive battles well into the 16th century. They didn't go scouting.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 29, 2017 15:03:43 GMT
Although I sorta agree with the last sentence, it was not uncommon for military and political leaders to be a part of a battle. Kings led their armies into decisive battles well into the 16th century. They didn't go scouting. It wasn't a scouting party considering they were bring back something from the enemy.
It was more akin to a surgical strike although it was a horrible one.
No one has said Jon was the best leader anyway. I think he sucks as he routinely does not think things through and takes the lead on suicidal missions. This fits in with his M.O.
What doesn't fit is the notion that so many people thought it was a good idea.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Aug 29, 2017 15:05:11 GMT
Kings led their armies into decisive battles well into the 16th century. They didn't go scouting. What doesn't fit is the notion that so many people thought it was a good idea. And we're back to my usual conclusion. This show is for idiots.
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kilgorek
Sophomore
@kilgorek
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Post by kilgorek on Aug 29, 2017 15:53:07 GMT
What doesn't fit is the notion that so many people thought it was a good idea. And we're back to my usual conclusion. This show is for idiots. To be fair, I think most people who watched the show agreed that it was a pretty stupid idea. And, if pressed, I think the show runners would agree. They even kind of alluded to it in that very episode when Jon said, "it wasn't my smartest idea."
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Post by pk9 on Aug 29, 2017 18:27:37 GMT
I have a different slant on Tyrion's responsibility. He should have believed Jon in the first place or at least given him more benefit of the doubt. The reality is that Tyrion is too tormented of a soul to be as effective as he was when he was temporary Hand and all of it is clouding his judgement He should accept at face value the word of a man he hung out with for like a week, five years ago? How would that make him a smart Hand? Just because magic is real doesn't mean all statements about the supernatural should be accepted without proof. Someone could say "There are leprechauns producing gold North of the Wall" or "I saw Euron turn into an octopus when he attacked us" or "Sam Tarly learned how to fly like Superman". All of these are equally likely in a world with magic, but it doesn't make them true. Dany's not afraid of danger. She stayed south because her priority was the war against Cersei. Dany didn't want to reveal that she lost a dragon. The foolish mistake was bringing Rhaegal, which gave Cersei the clue to figure out that she lost a dragon. She should always only show one or all three, so being unable to show all three, she should have just brought Drogon.
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Post by DSDSquared on Aug 29, 2017 18:31:30 GMT
I have a different slant on Tyrion's responsibility. He should have believed Jon in the first place or at least given him more benefit of the doubt. The reality is that Tyrion is too tormented of a soul to be as effective as he was when he was temporary Hand and all of it is clouding his judgement He should accept at face value the word of a man he hung out with for like a week, five years ago? How would that make him a smart Hand? Just because magic is real doesn't mean all statements about the supernatural should be accepted without proof. Someone could say "There are leprechauns producing gold North of the Wall" or "I saw Euron turn into an octopus when he attacked us" or "Sam Tarly learned how to fly like Superman". All of these are equally likely in a world with magic, but it doesn't make them true. Dany's not afraid of danger. She stayed south because her priority was the war against Cersei. Dany didn't want to reveal that she lost a dragon. The foolish mistake was bringing Rhaegal, which gave Cersei the clue to figure out that she lost a dragon. She should always only show one or all three, so being unable to show all three, she should have just brought Drogon. I agree with all of this. It has also been pretty established by now that Jon is not a good commander and critical thinker. Sure, he has great leadership qualities and might be the bravest man in Westeros, but he sure does not think things through.
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Post by bluerisk on Aug 29, 2017 18:49:22 GMT
The entire "getting a Zombie"-operation was a fail from A to Z, and Tyrion should have known it. Does he know his sister or not?!
They have to fight Cercei no matter what, and the sooner the better - now, the Night's is through the wall and with dragon, and Cercei, soon, with thr Golden company...and all this because Tyrion does not want to attack Cercei (the Red Keep).
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 29, 2017 20:55:39 GMT
pk9No one is telling him to him to not be skeptical, but he should not view Jon as someone who is crazy either. He knows him well enough to know that he isn't insane. It's not for Jon's benefit, but Dany's to check out the information that a major ally is concerned about. He certainly had no reason to distrust Jon or else there would have never been a reason to entertain him anyway. I never said Dany was afraid. There's two ways to look at this in relation to her fight with Cersei: She was still at war with Cersei when she went to rescue them She was still at war with Cersei when she was doing nothing while the crew went to Eastwatch. In fact, Tyrion was specifically concerned, not because he didn't believe the story as if Jon is a crack pot, but because it put Dany in danger of whatever attacked Jon which is why it was entirely stupid to think a small crew heading up north of the wall without a dragon &/or an army as backup would work. I know why she didn't. However, that was her still playing the game when it didn't matter. The true purpose of being there was to get help against an enemy that will kill them all. It is precisely the time to show vulnerability. It's not like it matters that one dragon is missing since she could still lay waste to them with two. Otherwise, there is no reason for the enemy you are asking for help to trust you even a smidge. She should have made clear that she wants help because she faced loss (& they should have figured out there was a zombie dragon out there that could fly around KL).
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 29, 2017 20:56:40 GMT
He should accept at face value the word of a man he hung out with for like a week, five years ago? How would that make him a smart Hand? Just because magic is real doesn't mean all statements about the supernatural should be accepted without proof. Someone could say "There are leprechauns producing gold North of the Wall" or "I saw Euron turn into an octopus when he attacked us" or "Sam Tarly learned how to fly like Superman". All of these are equally likely in a world with magic, but it doesn't make them true. Dany's not afraid of danger. She stayed south because her priority was the war against Cersei. Dany didn't want to reveal that she lost a dragon. The foolish mistake was bringing Rhaegal, which gave Cersei the clue to figure out that she lost a dragon. She should always only show one or all three, so being unable to show all three, she should have just brought Drogon. I agree with all of this. It has also been pretty established by now that Jon is not a good commander and critical thinker. Sure, he has great leadership qualities and might be the bravest man in Westeros, but he sure does not think things through. He's a horrible military leader, but he has excellent persuasion skills.
He's like a nice Hitler...Or Steve Jobs.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Aug 29, 2017 21:00:34 GMT
The entire "getting a Zombie"-operation was a fail from A to Z, and Tyrion should have known it. Does he know his sister or not?! They have to fight Cercei no matter what, and the sooner the better - now, the Night's is through the wall and with dragon, and Cercei, soon, with thr Golden company...and all this because Tyrion does not want to attack Cercei (the Red Keep). The thing that kills me is they can end Cersei in less than a day and then fly on to the North.
As Tyrion himself said, he is specifically working against the fastest course because of his attachments (Jon is at fault for this thinking too except he's more Jesus like in nobility).
Now exponentially more people are going to die going the merciful route
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Eλευθερί
Junior Member
@eleutheri
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Post by Eλευθερί on Aug 29, 2017 22:03:50 GMT
I have a different slant on Tyrion's responsibility. He should have believed Jon in the first place or at least given him more benefit of the doubt. Let's see things as they are. In stories written for adults or people with normal intellectual abilities, an army leader informed of a danger sends scouting parties and believes them. He doesn't go there himself to catch something and bring it to the other leaders. This show is written for idiots and they needed a reason to have a stupid episode with action, drama and the loss of a dragon. That's all. If we're going to go there, how is Daenerys, or the Night King, for that matter, able to hold on to the back of a dragon without falling off, when it is flying? There are no harnesses or handles up there, and the winds stirred up by the flapping wings alone should be enough to blow them off at even low speeds, not to mention the flights at high speeds or in the wild plunges and soars.
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Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on Jan 7, 2018 10:06:03 GMT
I actually made notes as I watched this time. **spoilers for the Season 7 final below if you haven’t seen it** I just wanted to start by saying that I’ve found this season pretty satisfying. I’ve no idea whether that’s the ‘popular’ opinion on the season or not, but for all the reunions alone it’s been worth it, I think. While I may have only reviewed 4 out of the 7 episodes we got this season, that’s not a reflection on their quality in my eyes...it’s just that I wasn’t in the mood for reviewing episodes 2, 5 & 6. Overall, I think the shortened season may have helped keep things more ‘tight’ and allowed for less ‘padding’. It’s been pretty gratifying to see all these characters come together, and never moreso than in the meeting scene at the beginning of this episode. So many character reunions! Dany always knows how to make an entrance, that’s for sure. I never get tired of scenes with her riding in on Drogon and the music that accompanies it (which I find very majesty/epic, as well as beautiful and a little sad - since these awesome creatures are so few in number). It somewhat amused me that after Dany’s entrance via dragon, Cersei was just ticked off with having been kept waiting. I also found her telling ZombieMountain, “If anything goes wrong, kill the silver-haired bitch first, then our brother, then the bastard who calls himself king.” amusing for some reason – I guess it was just the way Lena Headey said it. She always makes the most of the lines she’s given, I find. I was so glad that everyone had seemingly had enough of Euron just like I have. And good on Tyrion (and even Theon) for giving him crap about his lame dwarf jokes. I just can’t stand his character and was happy when he buggered off. Although Cersei can amuse me at times, I also kind of enjoyed seeing the White Walker set loose and scaring the crap out of her (I wish it had offed Euron, though). Dang it, Jon, you already caused Dany to lose one of her dragons last episode (which, btw, I hadn’t seeing the death off – especially when it sunk into the icy water – that was such a sad moment), and now you had to mess things up again. I’m glad Dany brought up the subject of her losing one of her ‘children’. Though, to be fair, she did say that she respected what he did...even if she didn’t like it. So I can’t fully hate Jon for sticking to his morals/principals – it’s just very frustrating after what happened last episode. I enjoyed the scenes between Cersei and Tyrion that we got. His ‘The Most Murderous Woman in the World’ was a good way of describing her. It was frustrating how, in his last one-on-one scene with her, he was expressing genuine regret over costing her her two (decent) children, but she just wouldn’t hear any of it. It was also good to get a scene between Jon and Theon. He obviously knew Theon had been through a lot, and wasn’t going easy on him, but didn’t see any point in making him feel even more miserable – and I liked that. He forgave him for the things that he could, which was nice of him. I have felt sorry for Theon on occasion, though after him abandoning Yara, it was hard to feel anything positive towards him anymore…that was until he stood up for her and took on that a-hole who gave him a beating, but then he turned the tables on him (the advantage of not having any junk to inflict pain upon, I guess – I loved Theon’s smile when that move failed to work for the jerk). Another satisfying scene was the one with Sansa and Arya calling Littlefinger out on all his crap he’s pulled/said over the course of the show. He got what he deserved. So long, you creeper (no more smirking for you!). The Cersei & Jaime scene was good as well. They really voiced what they’d been feeling, and seems all those who wanted Jaime away from his sister/lover finally got their wish. Though I kind of hated the fact that she figured out something had happened to one of Dany’s dragons - but points to her for being smart enough to realise that (which apparently Jaime wasn’t). However, before she starts feeling too smug/pleased with herself... I liked the really haunting version of the show’s theme which played as we got all those very still shots of everywhere. I thought that was pretty effective. The “He’s never been a bastard. He’s the heir to the Iron Throne.” revelation regarding Jon Snow may have had more impact if I hadn’t known about it well in advance thanks to spoiling myself. I think this pretty much sums things up regarding it... And lastly, I hated seeing what has become of Dany’s dragon that died. The fact that the poor creature has been turned into this... thing which that bastard Night King now commands/rides. It sacrilege! Those dragons are Dany’s and Dany’s alone, you icy prick! How I wish Dany had just burned the jerk after him killing the dragon last episode. Anyway, as sad as I am that I’ve already finished the season - and just when things were getting really interesting/epic - I think this season has been one of the better ones imho. It’s going to be really hard waiting for the next season (especially for me, who will have to wait for the last season to be released on DVD/Blu-ray before I get to see it), but even harder to remain unspoiled for all that time. I haven’t rewatched the seasons since the first time I watched them (I’ve only rewatched the odd episode to listen to my favourites commentaries a second time), but may do so leading up to the final season. Speaking of commentaries, I’m kind of looking forward to listening to the one on my Blu-rays for this season final, as it features Lena Headey and Kit Harington – I’ve really liked their commentaries in the past (Lena Headey is always so delightfully potty-mouthed). Numerous people had apparently asked her if she’d keep doing commentaries quite a few seasons back when I met her at a convention here...and thankfully she has indeed kept doing them.
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Jan 7, 2018 15:19:03 GMT
I actually made notes as I watched this time. **spoilers for the Season 7 final below if you haven’t seen it** I just wanted to start by saying that I’ve found this season pretty satisfying. I’ve no idea whether that’s the ‘popular’ opinion on the season or not, but for all the reunions alone it’s been worth it, I think. While I may have only reviewed 4 out of the 7 episodes we got this season, that’s not a reflection on their quality in my eyes...it’s just that I wasn’t in the mood for reviewing episodes 2, 5 & 6. Overall, I think the shortened season may have helped keep things more ‘tight’ and allowed for less ‘padding’. It’s been pretty gratifying to see all these characters come together, and never moreso than in the meeting scene at the beginning of this episode. So many character reunions! Dany always knows how to make an entrance, that’s for sure. I never get tired of scenes with her riding in on Drogon and the music that accompanies it (which I find very majesty/epic, as well as beautiful and a little sad - since these awesome creatures are so few in number). It somewhat amused me that after Dany’s entrance via dragon, Cersei was just ticked off with having been kept waiting. I also found her telling ZombieMountain, “If anything goes wrong, kill the silver-haired bitch first, then our brother, then the bastard who calls himself king.” amusing for some reason – I guess it was just the way Lena Headey said it. She always makes the most of the lines she’s given, I find. I was so glad that everyone had seemingly had enough of Euron just like I have. And good on Tyrion (and even Theon) for giving him crap about his lame dwarf jokes. I just can’t stand his character and was happy when he buggered off. Although Cersei can amuse me at times, I also kind of enjoyed seeing the White Walker set loose and scaring the crap out of her (I wish it had offed Euron, though). Dang it, Jon, you already caused Dany to lose one of her dragons last episode (which, btw, I hadn’t seeing the death off – especially when it sunk into the icy water – that was such a sad moment), and now you had to mess things up again. I’m glad Dany brought up the subject of her losing one of her ‘children’. Though, to be fair, she did say that she respected what he did...even if she didn’t like it. So I can’t fully hate Jon for sticking to his morals/principals – it’s just very frustrating after what happened last episode. I enjoyed the scenes between Cersei and Tyrion that we got. His ‘The Most Murderous Woman in the World’ was a good way of describing her. It was frustrating how, in his last one-on-one scene with her, he was expressing genuine regret over costing her her two (decent) children, but she just wouldn’t hear any of it. It was also good to get a scene between Jon and Theon. He obviously knew Theon had been through a lot, and wasn’t going easy on him, but didn’t see any point in making him feel even more miserable – and I liked that. He forgave him for the things that he could, which was nice of him. I have felt sorry for Theon on occasion, though after him abandoning Yara, it was hard to feel anything positive towards him anymore…that was until he stood up for her and took on that a-hole who gave him a beating, but then he turned the tables on him (the advantage of not having any junk to inflict pain upon, I guess – I loved Theon’s smile when that move failed to work for the jerk). Another satisfying scene was the one with Sansa and Arya calling Littlefinger out on all his crap he’s pulled/said over the course of the show. He got what he deserved. So long, you creeper (no more smirking for you!). The Cersei & Jaime scene was good as well. They really voiced what they’d been feeling, and seems all those who wanted Jaime away from his sister/lover finally got their wish. Though I kind of hated the fact that she figured out something had happened to one of Dany’s dragons - but points to her for being smart enough to realise that (which apparently Jaime wasn’t). However, before she starts feeling too smug/pleased with herself... I liked the really haunting version of the show’s theme which played as we got all those very still shots of everywhere. I thought that was pretty effective. The “He’s never been a bastard. He’s the heir to the Iron Throne.” revelation regarding Jon Snow may have had more impact if I hadn’t known about it well in advance thanks to spoiling myself. I think this pretty much sums things up regarding it... And lastly, I hated seeing what has become of Dany’s dragon that died. The fact that the poor creature has been turned into this... thing which that bastard Night King now commands/rides. It sacrilege! Those dragons are Dany’s and Dany’s alone, you icy prick! How I wish Dany had just burned the jerk after him killing the dragon last episode. Anyway, as sad as I am that I’ve already finished the season - and just when things were getting really interesting/epic - I think this season has been one of the better ones imho. It’s going to be really hard waiting for the next season (especially for me, who will have to wait for the last season to be released on DVD/Blu-ray before I get to see it), but even harder to remain unspoiled for all that time. I haven’t rewatched the seasons since the first time I watched them (I’ve only rewatched the odd episode to listen to my favourites commentaries a second time), but may do so leading up to the final season. Speaking of commentaries, I’m kind of looking forward to listening to the one on my Blu-rays for this season final, as it features Lena Headey and Kit Harington – I’ve really liked their commentaries in the past (Lena Headey is always so delightfully potty-mouthed). Numerous people had apparently asked her if she’d keep doing commentaries quite a few seasons back when I met her at a convention here...and thankfully she has indeed kept doing them. I heard some of the commentary with Lena/kit it was pretty cool , about Dany and her dragons I think she will lose them like cersei lost her children , they are starting to mirror each other's fate in a way both proclaim they are queens and both had three children , well cerseis were human but Dany keeps saying her dragons are her children she lost one and something tells me she will lose the other two so both queens will be left without airs , cersei is pregnant and danys one night stand with the king of the north may end up in pregnancy at least that's is what they want us to believe if cerseis baby dies so will danys .
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jan 7, 2018 16:09:33 GMT
cersei is pregnant and danys one night stand with the king of the north may end up in pregnancy at least that's is what they want us to believe if cerseis baby dies so will danys . Daenerys will not be pregnant. I am positive the bitch will die and I will celebrate the dismay of her stupid fans on that day. Cersei, on the other hand, could suffer a parallel fate to Queen Mary: a phantom pregnancy which might actually have been ovarian cancer. Sansa succeeding her would further the parallel with Queen Elizabeth I.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2018 20:04:17 GMT
cersei is pregnant and danys one night stand with the king of the north may end up in pregnancy at least that's is what they want us to believe if cerseis baby dies so will danys . Daenerys will not be pregnant. I am positive the bitch will die and I will celebrate the dismay of her stupid fans on that day. Cersei, on the other hand, could suffer a parallel fate to Queen Mary: a phantom pregnancy which might actually have been ovarian cancer. Sansa succeeding her would further the parallel with Queen Elizabeth I. I really hope there's not some dumbass pregnancy subplot in the last 6 episodes.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jan 8, 2018 1:56:34 GMT
Daenerys will not be pregnant. I am positive the bitch will die and I will celebrate the dismay of her stupid fans on that day. Cersei, on the other hand, could suffer a parallel fate to Queen Mary: a phantom pregnancy which might actually have been ovarian cancer. Sansa succeeding her would further the parallel with Queen Elizabeth I. I really hope there's not some dumbass pregnancy subplot in the last 6 episodes. We've had two dumbass seasons in a row. I expect this to continue, pregnancies included or not.
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Jan 8, 2018 16:31:34 GMT
It's going to be stupid if they end this with some offspring left to rule I've seen an ending like this before Anyway no time to have a baby full term in 6 episodes unless they are planning jumping time which will make no sense, unless danys baby is some sort of alien like that kid in the V series where it grew Everyday like a year in couple months from infant went to a 5 year old really creepy.
Only person so far we know for sure is pregnant is cersei and I think cerseis pregnancy is what will convince Tyrion for a big betrayal coming danys way no one knows what Tyrion and cersei said privately ,could be if cersei does die as many predicting ,and her kid makes it Tyrion will raise the baby Lannister everyone expects it to be danys baby I think may be other way around.
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