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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 4, 2017 13:54:20 GMT
This is arguably the highlight of season 1 for Angel. Two great episodes with an incredible story arc, particularly Five By Five.
I still maintain that Five by Five is the greatest Angel episode. It's strange to think the show hit this high point so early, but it really speaks to the power of the episode. It contains everything that made the show so incredible.
Great action/fight scenes. Angel vs Faith is a knockdown drag out fight. They destroy that apartment. Angel's technique clashes with Faith's slayer rage. The two of course would battle again in Release with the roles reversed, Angel the villain and Faith trying to save him.
Revealing Flashbacks. We see the aftermath of Angel's ensouling as Darla drives him away, and he tries to be a monster, which parallels Faith's attempts to be evil. Both cause their perpetrators great pain.
Crossovers. Faith shows up for the first time, continuing possibly the greatest story arc in the series. Hers is really the only story that crosses over to one show to continue and then crosses back to conclude. And of course, Buffy and the Watchers' elite team also feature in Sanctuary.
And finally, amazing drama. Very early on, the mission statement of Angel was about more than just saving lives. It was about saving souls. And nowhere else does Angel cement that than with Faith as he refuses to kill someone who has made the very real choice to be evil (a double crossing, violent murderer) and actually wants to die to pay for her crimes. Angel comforting Faith in the rain as Wesley drops his knife is heartbreaking.
If there is only one thing this episode is lacking, it would the be death of a major character. That's something the show would also make a name for itself for.
There are better seasons, there are better story arcs, there are sadder episodes. But no one episode captures everything about the show more than Five By Five.
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flyerzzrul
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Post by flyerzzrul on Sept 8, 2017 0:17:52 GMT
"FatBut no one episode captures everything about the show more than Five By Five."
I will say "The Trial" equals it because of everything you said but replace Faith with Darla.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Sept 13, 2017 23:10:40 GMT
This is arguably the highlight of season 1 for Angel. Two great episodes with an incredible story arc, particularly Five By Five. I still maintain that Five by Five is the greatest Angel episode. It's strange to think the show hit this high point so early, but it really speaks to the power of the episode. It contains everything that made the show so incredible. Great action/fight scenes. Angel vs Faith is a knockdown drag out fight. They destroy that apartment. Angel's technique clashes with Faith's slayer rage. The two of course would battle again in Release with the roles reversed, Angel the villain and Faith trying to save him. Revealing Flashbacks. We see the aftermath of Angel's ensouling as Darla drives him away, and he tries to be a monster, which parallels Faith's attempts to be evil. Both cause their perpetrators great pain. Crossovers. Faith shows up for the first time, continuing possibly the greatest story arc in the series. Hers is really the only story that crosses over to one show to continue and then crosses back to conclude. And of course, Buffy and the Watchers' elite team also feature in Sanctuary. And finally, amazing drama. Very early on, the mission statement of Angel was about more than just saving lives. It was about saving souls. And nowhere else does Angel cement that than with Faith as he refuses to kill someone who has made the very real choice to be evil (a double crossing, violent murderer) and actually wants to die to pay for her crimes. Angel comforting Faith in the rain as Wesley drops his knife is heartbreaking. If there is only one thing this episode is lacking, it would the be death of a major character. That's something the show would also make a name for itself for. There are better seasons, there are better story arcs, there are sadder episodes. But no one episode captures everything about the show more than Five By Five.
I agree with everything your just said, Caleb, except maybe that Five by Five is the greatest Angel episode...you make an absolutely great argument that I really can't argue against it, but only "disagree" with because of my own stubbornness and love for my other favorite episodes, lol. (Was that convoluted enough for ya?  ) But it is a damn great episode! (or couple of episodes)
Yes, the Faith story arc is one of the best, if not the best, character arc on both shows. And you are right in that it encapsulates everything Angel the Series stands for. Also, wonderful to see Faith's redemption and the parallel with Angel, and then later on with Wesley.
About your comment about all it needed was a character death, I understand where you are coming from, and maybe you are right, but if Faith had killed anyone, I am not sure she could have been saved at that point or Angel/Buffy would have had to kill her. Unless you mean that it didn't have to be Faith killing a major character, but just that the death had to happen in the episode, then that might work, but we had already lost Doyle, I'm not sure who they could have killed off that would have made sense. Would Lee or Lilah have worked? Since it was their idea to hire Faith and we lose Lee soon after these episodes anyway?
I agree with flyerzzrul in that The Trial would rival Five by Five as the episode that encapsulates what Angel the Series is about. It always stuck out to me and I love that episode dearly! It is definitely in my top 5 favorite Angel episodes, if not top 3. It still gets me every time that Angel is willing to sacrifice his life for Darla even though she has been kind of horrible to him recently and he believes that, as his sire, she is responsible for his damnation...and yet he still does it to give her a chance. I have felt this is an underrated episode by the fans; only because I rarely see it mentioned, but I may be just not looking hard enough, lol. Good thoughts you guys!
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flyerzzrul
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Post by flyerzzrul on Sept 15, 2017 5:11:40 GMT
This is arguably the highlight of season 1 for Angel. Two great episodes with an incredible story arc, particularly Five By Five. I still maintain that Five by Five is the greatest Angel episode. It's strange to think the show hit this high point so early, but it really speaks to the power of the episode. It contains everything that made the show so incredible. Great action/fight scenes. Angel vs Faith is a knockdown drag out fight. They destroy that apartment. Angel's technique clashes with Faith's slayer rage. The two of course would battle again in Release with the roles reversed, Angel the villain and Faith trying to save him. Revealing Flashbacks. We see the aftermath of Angel's ensouling as Darla drives him away, and he tries to be a monster, which parallels Faith's attempts to be evil. Both cause their perpetrators great pain. Crossovers. Faith shows up for the first time, continuing possibly the greatest story arc in the series. Hers is really the only story that crosses over to one show to continue and then crosses back to conclude. And of course, Buffy and the Watchers' elite team also feature in Sanctuary. And finally, amazing drama. Very early on, the mission statement of Angel was about more than just saving lives. It was about saving souls. And nowhere else does Angel cement that than with Faith as he refuses to kill someone who has made the very real choice to be evil (a double crossing, violent murderer) and actually wants to die to pay for her crimes. Angel comforting Faith in the rain as Wesley drops his knife is heartbreaking. If there is only one thing this episode is lacking, it would the be death of a major character. That's something the show would also make a name for itself for. There are better seasons, there are better story arcs, there are sadder episodes. But no one episode captures everything about the show more than Five By Five.
I agree with everything your just said, Caleb, except maybe that Five by Five is the greatest Angel episode...you make an absolutely great argument that I really can't argue against it, but only "disagree" with because of my own stubbornness and love for my other favorite episodes, lol. (Was that convoluted enough for ya? ) But it is a damn great episode! (or couple of episodes)
Yes, the Faith story arc is one of the best, if not the best, character arc on both shows. And you are right in that it encapsulates everything Angel the Series stands for. Also, wonderful to see Faith's redemption and the parallel with Angel, and then later on with Wesley.
About your comment about all it needed was a character death, I understand where you are coming from, and maybe you are right, but if Faith had killed anyone, I am not sure she could have been saved at that point or Angel/Buffy would have had to kill her. Unless you mean that it didn't have to be Faith killing a major character, but just that the death had to happen in the episode, then that might work, but we had already lost Doyle, I'm not sure who they could have killed off that would have made sense. Would Lee or Lilah have worked? Since it was their idea to hire Faith and we lose Lee soon after these episodes anyway?
I agree with flyerzzrul in that The Trial would rival Five by Five as the episode that encapsulates what Angel the Series is about. It always stuck out to me and I love that episode dearly! It is definitely in my top 5 favorite Angel episodes, if not top 3. It still gets me every time that Angel is willing to sacrifice his life for Darla even though she has been kind of horrible to him recently and he believes that, as his sire, she is responsible for his damnation...and yet he still does it to give her a chance. I have felt this is an underrated episode by the fans; only because I rarely see it mentioned, but I may be just not looking hard enough, lol. Good thoughts you guys!
Darla is my favorite female in the Buffyverse, so of course her redemption arc would touch me, (As did Faith's, I just imagine what Wes was thinking as he had the knife ready to gut Faith only to see Angel holding her as she cried.). |
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Post by Raimo47 on Sept 15, 2017 21:56:31 GMT
I agree with flyerzzrul in that The Trial would rival Five by Five as the episode that encapsulates what Angel the Series is about. It always stuck out to me and I love that episode dearly! It is definitely in my top 5 favorite Angel episodes, if not top 3. It still gets me every time that Angel is willing to sacrifice his life for Darla even though she has been kind of horrible to him recently and he believes that, as his sire, she is responsible for his damnation...and yet he still does it to give her a chance. I have felt this is an underrated episode by the fans; only because I rarely see it mentioned, but I may be just not looking hard enough, lol. Good thoughts you guys!
The Trial is my favorite episode of Angel. Five by Five is a good episode, but I wouldn't put it in my top 30. |
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 18, 2017 13:18:08 GMT
This is arguably the highlight of season 1 for Angel. Two great episodes with an incredible story arc, particularly Five By Five. I still maintain that Five by Five is the greatest Angel episode. It's strange to think the show hit this high point so early, but it really speaks to the power of the episode. It contains everything that made the show so incredible. Great action/fight scenes. Angel vs Faith is a knockdown drag out fight. They destroy that apartment. Angel's technique clashes with Faith's slayer rage. The two of course would battle again in Release with the roles reversed, Angel the villain and Faith trying to save him. Revealing Flashbacks. We see the aftermath of Angel's ensouling as Darla drives him away, and he tries to be a monster, which parallels Faith's attempts to be evil. Both cause their perpetrators great pain. Crossovers. Faith shows up for the first time, continuing possibly the greatest story arc in the series. Hers is really the only story that crosses over to one show to continue and then crosses back to conclude. And of course, Buffy and the Watchers' elite team also feature in Sanctuary. And finally, amazing drama. Very early on, the mission statement of Angel was about more than just saving lives. It was about saving souls. And nowhere else does Angel cement that than with Faith as he refuses to kill someone who has made the very real choice to be evil (a double crossing, violent murderer) and actually wants to die to pay for her crimes. Angel comforting Faith in the rain as Wesley drops his knife is heartbreaking. If there is only one thing this episode is lacking, it would the be death of a major character. That's something the show would also make a name for itself for. There are better seasons, there are better story arcs, there are sadder episodes. But no one episode captures everything about the show more than Five By Five.
I agree with everything your just said, Caleb, except maybe that Five by Five is the greatest Angel episode...you make an absolutely great argument that I really can't argue against it, but only "disagree" with because of my own stubbornness and love for my other favorite episodes, lol. (Was that convoluted enough for ya? ) But it is a damn great episode! (or couple of episodes)
Yes, the Faith story arc is one of the best, if not the best, character arc on both shows. And you are right in that it encapsulates everything Angel the Series stands for. Also, wonderful to see Faith's redemption and the parallel with Angel, and then later on with Wesley.
About your comment about all it needed was a character death, I understand where you are coming from, and maybe you are right, but if Faith had killed anyone, I am not sure she could have been saved at that point or Angel/Buffy would have had to kill her. Unless you mean that it didn't have to be Faith killing a major character, but just that the death had to happen in the episode, then that might work, but we had already lost Doyle, I'm not sure who they could have killed off that would have made sense. Would Lee or Lilah have worked? Since it was their idea to hire Faith and we lose Lee soon after these episodes anyway?
I agree with flyerzzrul in that The Trial would rival Five by Five as the episode that encapsulates what Angel the Series is about. It always stuck out to me and I love that episode dearly! It is definitely in my top 5 favorite Angel episodes, if not top 3. It still gets me every time that Angel is willing to sacrifice his life for Darla even though she has been kind of horrible to him recently and he believes that, as his sire, she is responsible for his damnation...and yet he still does it to give her a chance. I have felt this is an underrated episode by the fans; only because I rarely see it mentioned, but I may be just not looking hard enough, lol. Good thoughts you guys!
Oh, I'm glad Faith didn't kill a major character. I absolutely agree her redemption would've been impossible if she'd killed someone. I'm not saying the episode needed a major death, just that that's the one thing it doesn't have that the series became notorious for. It's still just as powerful without one. The Trial is certainly up there in how good it is. And something I just thought about, Angel succeeds in both episodes. He manages to get through to both Faith and Darla and restore some of their faith (no pun intended) in not just humanity, but in themselves. Of course, it's the endings were both deviate. Five by Five is heartbreaking because we watch a human literally at the end of her rope with death as the only visible out to her just break down. And The Trial is heartbreaking in its tragedy. Angel tries everything and gives up everything to save the woman who damned him. While he fails in saving her life, he saves a piece of her soul, only to have it ripped away by the very monster he created over a hundred years ago. It really brings to mind Doyle's words: "The past, she don't let go, does she?" Angel's crimes will continue to haunt him. |
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Sept 23, 2017 22:04:29 GMT
I agree with everything your just said, Caleb, except maybe that Five by Five is the greatest Angel episode...you make an absolutely great argument that I really can't argue against it, but only "disagree" with because of my own stubbornness and love for my other favorite episodes, lol. (Was that convoluted enough for ya? ) But it is a damn great episode! (or couple of episodes)
Yes, the Faith story arc is one of the best, if not the best, character arc on both shows. And you are right in that it encapsulates everything Angel the Series stands for. Also, wonderful to see Faith's redemption and the parallel with Angel, and then later on with Wesley.
About your comment about all it needed was a character death, I understand where you are coming from, and maybe you are right, but if Faith had killed anyone, I am not sure she could have been saved at that point or Angel/Buffy would have had to kill her. Unless you mean that it didn't have to be Faith killing a major character, but just that the death had to happen in the episode, then that might work, but we had already lost Doyle, I'm not sure who they could have killed off that would have made sense. Would Lee or Lilah have worked? Since it was their idea to hire Faith and we lose Lee soon after these episodes anyway?
I agree with flyerzzrul in that The Trial would rival Five by Five as the episode that encapsulates what Angel the Series is about. It always stuck out to me and I love that episode dearly! It is definitely in my top 5 favorite Angel episodes, if not top 3. It still gets me every time that Angel is willing to sacrifice his life for Darla even though she has been kind of horrible to him recently and he believes that, as his sire, she is responsible for his damnation...and yet he still does it to give her a chance. I have felt this is an underrated episode by the fans; only because I rarely see it mentioned, but I may be just not looking hard enough, lol. Good thoughts you guys!
Oh, I'm glad Faith didn't kill a major character. I absolutely agree her redemption would've been impossible if she'd killed someone. I'm not saying the episode needed a major death, just that that's the one thing it doesn't have that the series became notorious for. It's still just as powerful without one. The Trial is certainly up there in how good it is. And something I just thought about, Angel succeeds in both episodes. He manages to get through to both Faith and Darla and restore some of their faith (no pun intended) in not just humanity, but in themselves. Of course, it's the endings were both deviate. Five by Five is heartbreaking because we watch a human literally at the end of her rope with death as the only visible out to her just break down. And The Trial is heartbreaking in its tragedy. Angel tries everything and gives up everything to save the woman who damned him. While he fails in saving her life, he saves a piece of her soul, only to have it ripped away by the very monster he created over a hundred years ago. It really brings to mind Doyle's words: "The past, she don't let go, does she?" Angel's crimes will continue to haunt him.
I 100% agree with you, Caleb.
I see what you mean now about a character death in Five by Five. And you are absolutely right in that it is just as powerful an episode without a character death as other episodes that do have one. Hmmm, this may have shot Five by Five even further up my list of favorite episodes, because I am that person who never wants anybody to die and have everything work out and everyone live happily ever after, it's just who I am; of course I know that is not what happens on these shows, lol, but (unfortunately or fortunately) it does impact which episodes are my favorites for both shows, although Passion is still my favorite Buffy season 2 episode!
Yes, Doyle's words are very poignant; they also nicely sum up part of the series, don't they?
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Post by PreachCaleb on Sept 25, 2017 13:13:44 GMT
They sure do. Something that will again rear its ugly head in season 3 with Holtz.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Sept 27, 2017 23:24:27 GMT
They sure do. Something that will again rear its ugly head in season 3 with Holtz.
Yes, I can't wait, lol!
See, this is one of the things I love about both of the shows. Their seasons (and the shows themselves with their crossovers) are so connected to each other that one (usually) leads very well into the other, things are set up way in advance, payoffs happen in later seasons, etc. To me, that's just great writing and what allows them to not be as dated or as "one and done" as other shows. The writing still grabs you and affects you no matter if it is your tenth viewing or your one hundredth viewing (or if it is 1997 or 2017, lol  ).
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