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Post by Nora on Sept 11, 2017 3:12:53 GMT
So, I do realize this is a very delicate topic. But I am still interested in exploring it, simply because I want to learn more. Hopefully you will see this as a respectful query, rather than anything offensive.
I am originally from Europe, a foreigner living in the USA. I come from a predominantly white country where we have like 4 black people, and if I remember correctly all of them are on tv/celebrities. So… I havent really experienced or seen any real-life racist behaviour towards black people (against other races/nationalities yes). While I know it does exist, I was not aware of the rules around this word for most of my life.
I know in the USA it is different. And I want to learn. So far I know I am not allowed to say the N word. Under any circumstances it seems . Not that I was ever interested in saying it, since I understand most black people find it incredibly offensive and I know the (awful) history behind it. so fine with me not using this word.
BUT - what I am struggling to understand (and I watched countless talks on this, both serious and comedy) is why black people are "allowed" to use it, and furthermore continue to use it. In their regular talking, in the movies, in their comedy, generally in their art a lot. Mostly songs. So the word is in fact being immortalized by them. And furthermore, what do I do if I like the song, how do I prevent that the word is becoming somewhat normalized to me simply because I hear it a lot? or want to sing along with the song that uses the whole word in the lyrics - is that allowed?
Also, why should some words be allowed to use only by a certain race?
From what I heard it is about "claiming the word back". This is a concept I dont really understand, since if the word is seen as so bad, why even claim you want to own/use it? Or is the hope that by owning/using it (within the black community) the negative charge will be taken out of it and it will eventually become a less offensive word?
But then why wasn't Madonna allowed to use it as (what she claimed was) a compliment (to her son)?
Or is it more of a power struggle and the black community wanting to feel powerful over the white people who were their oppressors before? (and some maybe are still)
Loaded questions, I know. But I would really appreciate hearing your views. And while I appreciate answers from anyone, regardless of race, I would especially be interested in hearing from the members of the community that seems to be making rules on the use of this word.
Thank you.
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bess1971s
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Post by bess1971s on Sept 11, 2017 20:23:28 GMT
As a black woman who remembers when it was considered the worst thing you could call anyone, I still cringe when I hear the word.
I don't use it. I don't allow anyone to address me as such. I don't care how iconic that word has become, I hate it, always have and always will. Those are my rules.
As far as Madonna is concerned, as a white woman raising black children, she should exercise a lot more sensitivity and a lot more intelligence, but then again she is Madonna. No rules apply except of her own devising.
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barkingbaphomet
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Post by barkingbaphomet on Sept 11, 2017 21:02:24 GMT
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Post by Nora on Sept 11, 2017 21:09:30 GMT
As a black woman who remembers when it was considered the worst thing you could call anyone, I still cringe when I hear the word. I don't use it. I don't allow anyone to address me as such. I don't care how iconic that word has become, I hate it, always have and always will. Those are my rules. As far as Madonna is concerned, as a white woman raising black children, she should exercise a lot more sensitivity and a lot more intelligence, but then again she is Madonna. No rules apply except of her own devising. thanks for sharing your opinion. And are you hoping the word will become "extinct"? And do you cringe also when you hear it be used in movies or music? |
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Post by Nora on Sept 11, 2017 21:25:26 GMT
funny song, but not sure I wouldn't find it insulting if someone was comparing the use of the word ginger with the use of the N-word, given the history. but if your overall view is "only those that are from the group are allowed to use it" then my main gripe with that is still - should words really be assigned for use based on skin (or hair) color? I understand (maybe) if it is a word that can only be used as a slur. But both of these words can (and are) used also as a sign of camaradery between the members of the same group, or in case of ginger it could be a simple description. Hell I am a ginger. Voluntarily. Yes, I didn't go through years of bullying as a kid because of it, but if someone calls me a ginger today I don't see it as an insult. At all. Its a simple description of the color of my hair. I had a black fitness trainer and asked him if I am allowed to say the N word if I am quoting someone or a piece of art. No, I am not. Then a few days ago, I saw a black guy on the street calling his friends the N-word, and using it a LOT. So I approached him and asked him if I can also use the word (not to call his friends that of course but generally what are the rules). He looked me up and down and said " yeah you could call me that". Not sure what that means. He then proceeded pointing at various people on the streets of Brooklyn saying " he could" and " she could" and "he couldnt"… I wasnt able to work out what his decisions were based on. Yes he was mainly pointing at black (or latino) people saying "he/she could" but also took some black guy out as "no he couldnt" and admitted some white girl "in the group" of those who could. In the end I thought he was dividing it by who felt non-threatening or looked as a local looking vs strangers? But I am not sure. Again… I have no real desire to use the word, its just an interesting subject and new social rules I want to not only be familiar with but understand the sentiment /logic behind it. |
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Sept 11, 2017 21:36:56 GMT
I think it is about creating conflicts and divisions and controlling thought. Orwell said one uses language to control people's thinking. if you avoid certain words or topics it is a way of controlling public opinion.
They use the claim it is about avoiding hurt feelings but it used to be a common saying:
sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me.
Now we know that only applies to some people.
There was a case a while back where someone used the word niggardly in a speech with black people present and some were offended--unaware that the word has absolutely nothing to do with the word n****r. Completely unrelated word origin.
If such things are tolerated, it will just lead to more conflict and suppression. Mutual respect has to exist--if one side claims the right to have it but not extend it to the other then there is a problem.
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barkingbaphomet
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Post by barkingbaphomet on Sept 11, 2017 22:19:42 GMT
funny song, but not sure I wouldn't find it insulting if someone was comparing the use of the word ginger with the use of the N-word, given the history. but if your overall view is "only those that are from the group are allowed to use it" then my main gripe with that is still - should words really be assigned for use based on skin (or hair) color? Minchin is a stand up comic cum musician. the inspiration for the song was someone approaching him after a set in which he deconstructed and analyzed the word and threatening him with bodily harm if he ever used it on stage again. |
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Flynn
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Post by Flynn on Sept 11, 2017 22:32:49 GMT
White male here, just for the sake of disclosure.
I know what you mean by the word's normalization. A couple of years ago my wife and I were making our way through all the seasons of "The Wire," and there came a point when I told her that I needed a break from the show because I was starting to have thoughts expressed in language from the show. I think the tipping point came when I thought to myself while at work: "I need to get this mother fucking test made." There were also a lot of thoughts using the N-word as well. I never had malicious thoughts, mind you, but I had heard it so much that it was starting to seem normal to think it, to identify black peoples as such. Good show, but yeah, I had to take a break because I didn't want to have those thoughts.
My only advice is that if you feel it becoming normalized, back away from that media for a while.
I have also heard the idea expressed of black people trying to "own" the word by using it amongst themselves, but honestly, I think it's just exacerbating the issue. I think we all need to stop using it. As my experience while watching "The Wire" shows, continued use of the word only continues its damage.
For one thing, when black people use it themselves for each other, no matter the intent, I think the word still imparts a sense of inferiority, that it says the black person is still "the other." For another, it serves to keep the word and its implicit messages in the public consciousness. In my opinion, we all need to bury the word, spend say a century with it in the ground. Once all of us and our children have died, maybe the word can be stripped of its offensiveness so that we can examine it and perhaps even use it as a cultural artifact without the hurtful semantic meanings associated with it now.
One thing that bothers me in general is the inability to use taboo words in quotes. I was watching a Vox video on rhyme schemes in hip hop music a few weeks ago, and it bothered me that "n****r" was bleeped out. I understand why the word is not acceptable in everyday language, especially as a racial slur, but we all should be able to write it down or say if when quoting lyrics of a song. It's part of the song, and I feel like that takes a lot of its power out of it. Of course, as I said at the top, I don't think the word should be used at all, not for a long while at least.
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Sept 11, 2017 22:42:01 GMT
I grew up in an Italian ghetto that was quite mixed. My friends and I were raised to be very bigoted, and we used ethnic slurs, even about ourselves. These are the words I grew up with and still use among my friends. I am an adult (and beyond) and know not to use these terms in front of strangers or people who may be shocked or offended. But in my life, when I use them, they are not racial slurs, but rather ways of identifying someone's race or ethnicity.
However, I was really pissed off at (and won't watch anymore) Bill Maher for apologizing for using the N-word in a joke about himself, and being taken to task by people who make millions of dollars off saying the same word.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Sept 11, 2017 22:58:04 GMT
BUT - what I am struggling to understand (and I watched countless talks on this, both serious and comedy) is why black people are "allowed" to use it, and furthermore continue to use it. In their regular talking, in the movies, in their comedy, generally in their art a lot. Mostly songs. So the word is in fact being immortalized by them. And furthermore, what do I do if I like the song, how do I prevent that the word is becoming somewhat normalized to me simply because I hear it a lot? or want to sing along with the song that uses the whole word in the lyrics - is that allowed? I've been listening to gangsta rap since I was 5 and never had that issue. Hell, I grew up around black people who would say it all the time and never had that issue. As for singing along, I just skip over the word. Most of the black people I know will let a white person use it if they're friends. I personally don't feel comfortable using it myself because of its history. Even with an "a" on the end, because I think white people sound stupid saying it (similarly to a girl saying "dude" or a gay guy saying "gurl"). Not my place to answer why black people use it. But they also call people "fool" (more so back in the day) without meaning offense, so it's not that strange to me. |
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Post by deembastille on Sept 11, 2017 23:07:04 GMT
before I say anything, I feel the need to mention that Madonna should never be the horse that pulls your cart. never ever follow what this woman does.
remember the 'like a prayer' fiasco? the video was shown during the superbowl on national television and the very next day almost, oprah, sally jesse Raphael and I don't know who else had stuffy mothers on their show complaining about the burning crosses and such in the video.... [idk when they had the stuffy moms on but it was hella quick for that time, that is for damned sure!]
now here is where I lost so much respect for Madonna... her apology...
she apologizes where? ON MTV! A CABLE CHANNEL SHOW! what happens to those of us who didn't get cable so therefore were unable to even know she apologized??? and her bs about how she didn't know the ladies she hired were going to do that. it's called viewing the final product!
Now onto the original programming...
the enn word. I am a white woman who teaches in a rough area of the south Bronx [and I really do love it]. I think if the word is going to stay, then I think the definition of the word should change.
I think the definition should be: any person from any race who behaves like the stereotypes they say they hate.
for example: since I am irish [and a woman], if I am constantly pregnant [and happy and think it is my duty], I am the enn word.
Since I am also German... since I dislike people who are late/think nothing of this or my time, I am the enn word.
but this is just me. and in a perfect world, where the word should be offensive to anyone and should only be used as a 'hey watch it!' warning. if it is to be used at all, which I still have a problem with. this way it is everyone's problem.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Sept 11, 2017 23:21:43 GMT
I suspect that it did not originate as a disparaging word, but as a rustic American pronunciation of the word negro.
Other examples:
Indian = Injun
idiot = idgit
creature = critter
This is not a defense of how the word is used today, but just an attempt to explain how it may have begun.
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Post by politicidal on Sept 11, 2017 23:43:13 GMT
Being biracial, I think the whole reclamation idea is complete bullshit. I'd rather it be retired from everyday conversation. That being said, since black American culture, more specifically hip hop/gangsta/etc., seems infatuated with the term's usage in a casual context, it seems unfair (not the word I want but closest I could think of) that non-blacks are refrained from using it in a similar fashion. I mean, both whites and blacks still use "honky" for songwriting or just casually right?
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Post by deembastille on Sept 11, 2017 23:58:03 GMT
Being biracial, I think the whole reclamation idea is complete bullshit. I'd rather it be retired from everyday conversation. That being said, since black American culture, more specifically hip hop/gangsta/etc., seems infatuated with the term's usage in a casual context, it seems unfair (not the word I want but closest I could think of) that non-blacks are refrained from using it in a similar fashion. I mean, both whites and blacks still use "honky" for songwriting or just casually right? I haven't heard the honky word without the tonk in like, ever. and honky tonk is a form of country music that many but not all/only southern white people tend to gravitate towards. line dancing and such. but we find kracka more offensive because you are bringing color into it when you say you hate just that. if you dislike being called a name regarding the color of your skin, what gives you the right to call someone else on that and their {lack of color}. not YOU, personally, just someone who uses the word. |
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Post by deembastille on Sept 12, 2017 0:03:36 GMT
gotta post this...  |
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Post by politicidal on Sept 12, 2017 0:04:01 GMT
Being biracial, I think the whole reclamation idea is complete bullshit. I'd rather it be retired from everyday conversation. That being said, since black American culture, more specifically hip hop/gangsta/etc., seems infatuated with the term's usage in a casual context, it seems unfair (not the word I want but closest I could think of) that non-blacks are refrained from using it in a similar fashion. I mean, both whites and blacks still use "honky" for songwriting or just casually right? I haven't heard the honky word without the tonk in like, ever. and honky tonk is a form of country music that many but not all/only southern white people tend to gravitate towards. line dancing and such. but we find kracka more offensive because you are bringing color into it when you say you hate just that. if you dislike being called a name regarding the color of your skin, what gives you the right to call someone else on that and their {lack of color}. not YOU, personally, just someone who uses the word. Welcome to the human race. Yeah, whenever I hear 'cracker' being used nowadays, it's pretty serious and meant to be offensive. |
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Sept 12, 2017 0:19:11 GMT
I think if I was called a 'cracker' I would laugh. I'm more of a bruttiboni
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Post by Nora on Sept 12, 2017 1:41:16 GMT
funny song, but not sure I wouldn't find it insulting if someone was comparing the use of the word ginger with the use of the N-word, given the history. but if your overall view is "only those that are from the group are allowed to use it" then my main gripe with that is still - should words really be assigned for use based on skin (or hair) color? Minchin is a stand up comic cum musician. the inspiration for the song was someone approaching him after a set in which he deconstructed and analyzed the word and threatening him with bodily harm if he ever used it on stage again. interesting. I do a bit of stand up myself and would never use the word on stage. I am fairly careful. I even changed my set the day Robin Williams died and I was just about to go on the stage and my set originally included the word suicide in it. But I would like to think that it would be ok for me to use it depending on the context. I think context is everything. Chris Rock has a funny bit on when a white person is allowed to say the word. I find it funny but not close to my heart as the guidance is basically "never". And the short cut? I find the whole "N word" trope silly. Louis CK has a great point on that and he is right the full word IS in my head when I say "the N word" out loud. In my ideal world people wouldn't be forcefully regulated on its use. Its just a word, you can use it as a horrific bad insult or as something else, like many words. I think hiding the word is actually giving it more power. Saying it in other context may be whats needed and by that taking the negative charge of the word instead. But I am also one of those people who didn't love the "you know who" instead of "Voldemort". I wanted to scream at the screen "jesus just say the word and stop being so afraid of it and by that actually giving it an even worse meaning/power. Its just a word! Voldemort, Voldemort, Voldemort!" :-) |
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Post by Nora on Sept 12, 2017 1:44:28 GMT
Being biracial, I think the whole reclamation idea is complete bullshit. I'd rather it be retired from everyday conversation. That being said, since black American culture, more specifically hip hop/gangsta/etc., seems infatuated with the term's usage in a casual context, it seems unfair (not the word I want but closest I could think of) that non-blacks are refrained from using it in a similar fashion. I mean, both whites and blacks still use "honky" for songwriting or just casually right? I would also prefer it would be retired from everyday conversation. But not by regulation/force. To me the funny thing is that in Europe where I come from, the word can be used (and often is) as something really positive. In a colloquial language. If you call a guy that, it can mean: 1. he is big and strong 2. he is tough (in a good way) 3. he is sexy not saying it cannot be used in the bad way also, it can, but it just can swing both ways… |
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Post by kuatorises on Sept 12, 2017 13:53:05 GMT
So, I do realize this is a very delicate topic. But I am still interested in exploring it, simply because I want to learn more. Hopefully you will see this as a respectful query, rather than anything offensive. I am originally from Europe, a foreigner living in the USA. I come from a predominantly white country where we have like 4 black people, and if I remember correctly all of them are on tv/celebrities. So… I havent really experienced or seen any real-life racist behaviour towards black people (against other races/nationalities yes). While I know it does exist, I was not aware of the rules around this word for most of my life. I know in the USA it is different. And I want to learn. So far I know I am not allowed to say the N word. Under any circumstances it seems . Not that I was ever interested in saying it, since I understand most black people find it incredibly offensive and I know the (awful) history behind it. so fine with me not using this word. BUT - what I am struggling to understand (and I watched countless talks on this, both serious and comedy) is why black people are "allowed" to use it, and furthermore continue to use it. In their regular talking, in the movies, in their comedy, generally in their art a lot. Mostly songs. So the word is in fact being immortalized by them. And furthermore, what do I do if I like the song, how do I prevent that the word is becoming somewhat normalized to me simply because I hear it a lot? or want to sing along with the song that uses the whole word in the lyrics - is that allowed? Also, why should some words be allowed to use only by a certain race? From what I heard it is about "claiming the word back". This is a concept I dont really understand, since if the word is seen as so bad, why even claim you want to own/use it? Or is the hope that by owning/using it (within the black community) the negative charge will be taken out of it and it will eventually become a less offensive word? But then why wasn't Madonna allowed to use it as (what she claimed was) a compliment (to her son)? Or is it more of a power struggle and the black community wanting to feel powerful over the white people who were their oppressors before? (and some maybe are still) Loaded questions, I know. But I would really appreciate hearing your views. And while I appreciate answers from anyone, regardless of race, I would especially be interested in hearing from the members of the community that seems to be making rules on the use of this word. Thank you. I don't think there's a lot to discuss. You pretty much nailed it on the head in terms of how certain people think it is okay to use if you're black – it's an attempt to take the power away from those using it in a derogatory manner. My personal opinion is that nobody should use it. It represents some truly terrible times in humanities history. |
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